Hello, kind folk, do you mind if I jump in?

I'll cut straight to the point: I believe in good common sense. Is it perfect? No. But other than science, it's the best we got so far. That, and perhaps some forms of entertainment.

Can I kindly request that you put me up to speed on the state of this Thread? Where is the discussion at, currently? What is the "Main Thing" (so to speak) that you are currently discussing, and how could I possibly contribute, either constructively or destructively? Forgive my mannerisms and figures of speech, I'm "simple folk", if you want to call it that.

To your point though, it is worth asking: "have there been any peaceful and ethical movements that progresses just as rapidly and richly as the many barbaric ones that came before (or after) it?". Very few; in fact, I would say the only ones are the ones that are barbaric anti-barbarism: the violence of peace. E.g., Ghandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., etc. — Bob Ross

How about international cooperation?

As usually we are obsessed in our focus on Superpowers and Great Powers and conflicts, we miss a lot that has been truly dramatic and peaceful, movements that have been a success by cooperation by independent states. European integration has pacified the union members (which don't look at each other as potential military threats and adversaries). The idea of EU came strong after the Continent had suffered two World Wars, something that anti-EU populist will totally ignore.

Or Nordic cooperation, where as early as 1952 Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland abolish the requirement for passports for travel between them. Or what the UN has also achieved, even if the organization is very bureaucratic and inefficient. In every Continent there is a desire for cooperation and for trade. The idea of shutting the country out of the World isn't popular anymore, as Japan tried to do earlier (and actually places like Oman, where one sultan was a very conservative guy who banned the use of bicycles in the 20th Century.) The wide assortment of international organizations that sovereign states participate has to be in it's entirety a noteworthy development.

It also begs the question just what values and agendas are shared in such way we could speak of Global or Universal values, not just Western values.

Didn't Gandhi and King endure the violence of the British and the southern cops / mobs respectively?

Yes, in the most violent of displays of peace—viz., in the most radical and extreme methods of peaceful protest ever concocted. I was merely pointing out that even the rare occurrences where peace has the same swift and monumental effect of aristocratic elites, it still has that aristocratic shadow….it is perfectly plausible that if Ghandhi were not so radically peaceful—but rather peaceful in a more moderate and reasonable sense—then his whole project wouldn’t have made a single dent in human history. It was the “uno-reverse card” of showing people how barbaric someone could be in the face of absolute kindness that had a bone-chilling affect.

What about the Dutch, one might ask.

I don’t remember much about Dutch history, but I would guess that they haven’t done anything monumental towards the course of history. We are not talking about countries that merely survived but, rather, plummeted humanity into a new age or significantly expedited the development process. I am not sure if the Dutch count here…

American Indian tribes are fairly often suggested as peaceful and unwarlike

I’ve heard otherwise—e.g., cannibals—but even if this is true it is obvious that they are weak and only exist still because sympathy and tolerance of all human life has been thoroughly cultivated into humanity’s conscience. In fact, if they are examples of the product of anti-aristocratic values, then it only serves my point….

Humans can display a great deal of solidarity, cooperation, loyalty and trust when either a sufficiently dangerous threat or an irresistible opportunity presents itself

Yes, and they have tended, throughout history, to come together at the expense of a weak out-group...no?

We have entered an unprecedented age, where we now find aristocratic values itself disgusting; and it has had its strengths and weaknesses.

I think this is why so many people do not like Israel and Russia for their conquests: it is very aristocratic.

Let's revisit both A and B conceptions of Justice — Bob Ross

I don't see much merit in either of these conceptions. Are you pulling them out of thin air? Or is there some thinker or tradition that you are getting these from?

Here's what I am thinking. Justice is about, fundamentally, respecting other members of the community (or social structure in which one is a member, such as a family for example) such that each member is getting what they rightly deserve and not getting what they do not deserve. — Bob Ross

I would have the same concern about this. Where is it coming from? If we look at <a dictionary> I don't really see your conception. Or if we do, it is only there in a vague way.

We need a better starting point for a definition.

if the community has the resources to suffice the basic needs of each member than it should — Bob Ross

This is probably the kernel of the strangeness in your thought. This conception of justice finds no basis anywhere in the Merriam Webster definitions above. "If you can do X then you are required to do so in justice." That is a very strange claim to my ears.

In terms of my example of the self-sufficient man, I think you are right: it would be a matter of beneficence and benevolence and not justice. — Bob Ross

Yes, I agree.

Same thing, I think, with things like animal cruelty. Beyond the injustice which would arise from violating a person's property by torturing or killing their pet, it is not something, even outside the purview of justice, that a virtuous person would do because they need to be benevolent and beneficent. — Bob Ross

Sure, but commissions tend to be more unjust than omissions, and this is why justice was classically concerned primarily with "negative rights."

Are you pulling them out of thin air? Or is there some thinker or tradition that you are getting these from?

I got those from After Virtue by MacIntyre:

For A aspires to ground the notion of justice in some account of what and how a given person is entitled to in virtue of what he has acquired and earned; B aspires to ground the notion of justice in some account of the equality of the claims of each person in respect of basic needs and of the means to meet such needs. Confronted by a given piece of property or resource, A will be apt to claim that it is justly his because he owns it – he acquired it legitimately, he earned it; B will be apt to claim that it justly ought to be someone else’s, because they need it much more, and if they do not have it, their basic needs will not be met. But our pluralist culture possesses no method of weighing, no rational criterion for deciding between claims based on legitimate entitlement against claims based on need. Thus these two types of claim are indeed, as I suggested, incommensurable, and the metaphor of ‘weighing’ moral claims is not just inappropriate but misleading...

– (After Virtue, Ch. 17 “Justice as Virtue: Changing Conceptions”, p. 246)

I find it plausible that justice requires a balance between A and B types of justice because they are the two extremes in a community: the one, to wit, the proper assessment of individual merit and the other, to wit, the proper assessment of natures (of members). One focuses only on the individual in terms of agency, and the other solely on the needs of each member.

I don't see much merit in either of these conceptions

How would you define justice, then?

I would have the same concern about this. Where is it coming from? If we look at <a dictionary> I don't really see your conception. Or if we do, it is only there in a vague way.

Well, dictionaries are notoriously inadequate for formal discussions. Nothing about the definitions in the Webster dictionary for justice suffice in telling us what exactly justice is getting at.

We need a better starting point for a definition.

My definition of justice is the study and practice of properly treating other persons; my initial description of justice is what you quoted:

Here's what I am thinking. Justice is about, fundamentally, respecting other members of the community (or social structure in which one is a member, such as a family for example) such that each member is getting what they rightly deserve and not getting what they do not deserve.

I am describing justice fundamentally in terms of the relation between community and individual exactly because the Aristotelian conception of justice arises only exactly due to us being social organisms. Justice can’t be, i.e., if Aristotle is right that justice is a virtue only because we must facilitate it to fulfill the social aspect(s) of our nature, fundamentally about merely respecting individuals (such as is the case in libertarian notions of justice) because it makes no reference to the community or over-arching structure which one’s goods are interdependent upon.

This conception of justice finds no basis anywhere in the Merriam Webster definitions above.

Why doesn’t it fit? Here’s one definition from your link:

the quality of being just, impartial, or fair

"If you can do X then you are required to do so in justice." That is a very strange claim to my ears.

Justice has an element to it that is relative to the resources and circumstances of the community. E.g., it is unjust to arbitrarily or unduly prevent someone from driving on roads, but depending on the conditions of the roads what is considered unduly here may change; it is currently unjust to force people, where I live, to not use as much water in their homes, but if there is a drought then it may no longer be unjust; food rationing is unjust right now, but not necessarily if we start running low; etc.

Do you deny any circumstantial aspects to justice?

Sure, but commissions tend to be more unjust than omissions, and this is why justice was classically concerned primarily with "negative rights."

I guess, to a certain extent. However, there are multiple levels to laws (e.g., local, state, federal, etc.) and policies that come into play which are circumstantial to some extent. We have this negative right to, e.g., make this policy for our private business; but might not have it in, e.g., in martial law.