• schopenhauer1
    2.2k
    Who becomes a manager should be based on election by workers. "Management and oversight" is a useful service which helps people perform well, when the purpose is to enhance work, rather than just squeeze out more from fewer people. There are people who have been managers over me who I would happily elect as a manager, and their are other people who should never be in the position of management.Bitter Crank

    If there are 4 shitty people and 2 good people.. the 4 shitty people will put someone shitty like themselves in charge.. (Insert quote about how shitty people like shitty leaders..add other quote about Trump being a shitty leader :D). Of course what makes a shitty leader is in the eye of the beholder.. too nuanced.. a ruthless task master who gets the job done early so everyone has more free time or a loungy "cool" boss who lets you go at a leisurely pace and more time for fun at work? I guess we can both agree arbitrary hours (8 hours but all of it is BS work) is bad and makes no sense so maybe there are some objective measures.. no arbitrary rules about work hours, etc. Then there's the idea that there should be no leader at all, even by democratic vote.. anarchy within anarchism baby!
  • Bitter Crank
    6.5k
    All discourse about how the world COULD BE organized to achieve a better quality of life is SPECULATIVE, of course. The problems lying in the way of even minor changes (like revitalizing the labor union movement) are difficult enough. Reorganizing production along humane socialist lines is, as you said, orders of magnitude more complex. Do I think it's going to happen? Not likely.

    My socialist mentors always warn against utopian schemes. On the other hand, our reach should exceed our grasp. There is nothing eternal about the way economies are organized now.
  • Bitter Crank
    6.5k
    Seems pretty contrary to human nature to meT Clark

    Human nature, according to modern Marxist thinkers is constructed. The older view is that it is essential. Of course, it's both -- some parts are learned, some parts are encoded. I'd reveal all the details of the secrets of life right here and now, but I have to go to the dentist first.
  • T Clark
    3k
    Human nature, according to modern Marxist thinkers is constructed. The older view is that it is essential. Of course, it's both -- some parts are learned, some parts are encoded. I'd reveal all the details of the secrets of life right here and now, but I have to go to the dentist first.Bitter Crank

    I believe, and I think there is science to back me up, that a lot of human capacity and potential is built into us genetically. There is human nature independent of learning or socialization. Which isn't to say I disagree with your statement.

    As I get older, going to medical professionals is the secret of life.
  • CasKev
    392
    a lot of human capacity and potential is built into us geneticallyT Clark

    Do you think the search for meaning and purpose is genetic or learned? Do you think it is possible to ignore such thinking and still achieve peace of mind?
  • T Clark
    3k
    Do you think the search for meaning and purpose is genetic or learned? Do you think it is possible to ignore such thinking and still achieve peace of mind?CasKev

    I think its partly hardwired, although I can't cite evidence for that belief. Humans are story tellers. We don't seem to be able to stop ourselves. I see that drive as built in. That's an impression, not a fact. I think the search for meaning and purpose is one of the stories we tell.

    About what happens if we ignore such thinking - I think everyone has their own stories to tell. It's more important that the stories come from our hearts or souls or whatever than that it be any particular story.
  • TimeLine
    2.7k
    I've addressed many emotional issues through therapy, but your comment makes me question whether I still have unresolved issues floating around at the subconscious level. The trouble is in trying to identify what those issues may be, or to pick up on themes that seem to be recurring in my conscious thought processes.CasKev

    It is hard and the moment where you feel the burden or heaviness rather intensely, usually instigated by some present experience, it is important to fight that feeling by mapping out the architecture of why it was felt in the first place and that can be extremely difficult because articulating something unknown but felt is like trying to colour a black canvas. Writing fiction stories or painting and drawing images that are formed during these experiences actually support this articulation as it is a form of communication with yourself as your own personal language. Attaining the skills to deal with the feelings or medicating a silence to the emotions do not actually assist you to confront why they are there in the first place and thus you will never really recover from the depressive feelings.

    This is the same as forming a 'perfect' life and many people sacrifice their deeper, subjective wants by forming a nuclear existence according to which society or your environment dictates as enabling the happiness (thus the absence of depression), but as you yourself are aware, that doesn't actually help resolve it either. Existence is taking that responsibility by becoming self-conscious and accepting your separateness rather than relying on external factors.
  • T Clark
    3k
    It is hard and the moment where you feel the burden or heaviness rather intensely, usually instigated by some present experience, it is important to fight that feeling by mapping out the architecture of why it was felt in the first place and that can be extremely difficult because articulating something unknown but felt is like trying to colour a black canvas. Writing fiction stories or painting and drawing images that are formed during these experiences actually support this articulation as it is a form of communication with yourself as your own personal language. Attaining the skills to deal with the feelings or medicating a silence to the emotions do not actually assist you to confront why they are there in the first place and thus you will never really recover from the depressive feelings.TimeLine

    You seem to be a person of will. I have this image of you facing a problem by getting out the wrenches, putting the car up on the lift, and getting your hands covered with oil. That isn't a criticism. You're not an engineer, are you?

    That isn't the only way to handle our run ins with the world; physical, social, or psychological, and it's not necessarily the best. Rather than getting more control, it is possible to find your way by giving up the control you have. I suspect it is the only way that will fully resolve our unhappiness or dissatisfaction. If it sounds like that's a lazy excuse for not dealing with your problems, that's exactly what it is. It fits my personality perfectly, as I suspect your approach fits yours.

    Existence is taking that responsibility by becoming self-conscious and accepting your separateness rather than relying on external factors.TimeLine

    Not necessarily. Existence, satisfying existence, can also be learning to accept what you have and to give up your illusions.
  • CasKev
    392
    It is hard and the moment where you feel the burden or heaviness rather intensely, usually instigated by some present experienceTimeLine

    I believe I'm at a disadvantage when trying to use this approach. Being on anti-depressant medication seems to really dull the 'unhappy' emotions, making it difficult to identify the indicators in present experiences. Unfortunately, stopping the medication in order to fully feel isn't a very realistic approach in today's world.
  • TimeLine
    2.7k
    I believe I'm at a disadvantage when trying to use this approach. Being on anti-depressant medication seems to really dull the 'unhappy' emotions, making it difficult to identify the indicators in present experiences. Unfortunately, stopping the medication in order to fully feel isn't a very realistic approach in today's world.CasKev

    I would not recommend stopping medication without proper supervision, however as long as your cognitive capacity remains in tact, which is certainly clear by your highly articulate posts, introspection as you reflect on previously felt experiences can be just as effective. It is really the habit of reflecting with honesty and taking an epicurean approach by effectively considering all potential possibilities that contribute to an experience. As mentioned, sometimes these experiences are too difficult hence the very reason why they are suppressed, and that is why fiction writing or drawing can gradually release those causal factors.

    As said in V for Vendetta, artists use lies to tell the truth.

    Not necessarily. Existence, satisfying existence, can also be learning to accept what you have and to give up your illusions.T Clark

    You cannot give up on your illusions simply by accepting them, that is quite simply giving in to your illusions. Giving up your illusions is to accept your own state of nature, to withdraw from relying on other people' points of view and find your own and when you are for yourself, that is when you begin to actually exist.

    You seem to be a person of will. I have this image of you facing a problem by getting out the wrenches, putting the car up on the lift, and getting your hands covered with oil. That isn't a criticism. You're not an engineer, are you?T Clark

    i have to admit, I really enjoy the way that you write. Your initial post in the other thread about the train was just golden. This will is very much about my survival (both physically and my identity) and prefer to find what is causing the problem rather than continuously cranking the gears as the muffler blows out loud shots of exhaust to the dismay of others. The reality is that I grew up on my own and thus was compelled to a daunting reality that required self-regulation to preserve my own physical well being but also remain virtuous despite having no one protect me. We are all under threat in some way, but I have or at the very least am attempting to find a balance between being strong-willed and independent while remaining gentle and kind as I am naturally. It is my feminine side that has a liking to care for and help support 'fallen angels' if they so choose to accept, those people I find are suffering unnecessarily and it hurts me to see that.

    I speak of a different type of control; it is not an absence of considering psychological, social and environmental factors, but rather appreciating that since you are the centre of these experiences, strengthening an understanding of your past will give you the clarity to become one with your present experiences.
  • CasKev
    392
    It is my feminine side that has a liking to care for and help support 'fallen angels' if they so choose to accept, those people I find are suffering unnecessarily and it hurts me to see that.TimeLine

    What do you consider to be a 'fallen angel', and what sort of support do you typically offer?
  • TimeLine
    2.7k
    What do you consider to be a 'fallen angel', and what sort of support do you typically offer?CasKev

    I think Bansky pretty much sums it up:

    b215f080108acc7760cdcc929fd4b47b.jpg

    A good person, someone with talent and capacity who may have been hurt in someway and without the right figure in their lives seek comfort in all the wrong places. It is why I chose a career working with disadvantaged children. I too have been at crossroads many times myself, choices that could have led me to very different circumstances. I luckily had a ridiculously strong desire to protect myself and an innate sense of virtue that I wholeheartedly believed in and kept me withdrawn from such dangers. Completely withdrawn, actually. Being on my own since I was very young and having no one to look up to, I feel strong enough now to give love to those children who similarly never had love so that they too can find the strength to take care of themselves.

    Not that you are one of those children, but I guess we are all still the same child inside.
  • Posty McPostface
    5.1k
    The dialectics of depression,

    where nothing good comes out of false premises.

    Depression, as you know, is a distortion of reality.

    One can't make a delicious cake out of shit.

    That's my understanding of the futility (in essence) of CBT in trying to make a cake out of shit.
  • CasKev
    392
    @Question I'm not following your line of thought... If depression is a distortion of reality - like unsupported negative self-judgments - why wouldn't CBT help with breaking down and eliminating the distortion?
  • Posty McPostface
    5.1k


    I said that from individual experience. CBT doesn't cure depression or make it go away, as anyone with depression would hope. It only addresses the final product of a "botched"/depressed mind.
  • Bitter Crank
    6.5k
    That's my understanding of the futility (in essence) of CBT in trying to make a cake out of shit.Question

    What you have here is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    "I am am unhappy and am in therapy, but it isn't working."

    "Why isn't it working?"

    "Why, therapy just doesn't work. It's a useless waste of time."

    Sure enough, the therapy didn't work.
  • unenlightened
    2.7k
    One can't make a delicious cake out of shit.Question

    If peace of mind were an achievement, it would have to be the achievement of an unpeaceful, striving mind. But it is not an achievement at all, but simply what happens when one stops trying to make a delicious cake out of shit.
  • CasKev
    392
    I said that from individual experience. CBT doesn't cure depression or make it go away, as anyone with depression would hope. It only addresses the final product of a "botched"/depressed mind.Question

    I think it's like you say - an individual experience. I believe CBT was an important part of my recovery from depression.
  • CasKev
    392
    If peace of mind were an achievement, it would have to be the achievement of an unpeaceful, striving mind. But it is not an achievement at all, but simply what happens when one stops trying to make a delicious cake out of shit.unenlightened

    It is quite an achievement for me, following a decade of depression. And the world doesn't feel like shit now, at least for the time being.
  • unenlightened
    2.7k
    Well I'm not going to try and argue you back there. Congratulations, then. :)
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.4k
    I found what I was left with was a mildly depressed feeling (unpleasant, but not unbearable), seemingly based on thoughts of mortality, pointlessness of life, and lack of meaning.CasKev

    But what meaning would you expect there to be? What meaning need there be? There are things you like. What more meaning could be expected or needed?

    Vedanta refers to worldly-life, and its fundamental purpose, as "Lila", or play. That's meaning and purpose enough.

    -------------------------------------------
    Primarily: You do things that you like.

    No matter what anyone claims, that's what we're here for.

    (With the caveat: "...without harming others, or being dishonest with yourself".).
    ---------------------------------------------
    That's a lot of meaning, and all that's needed. Those two things are two of Vedanta's and Hinduism's Purusharthas (life-purposes). (Kama and Dharma).

    That caveat, which amounts to Dharma, is what distinguishes you from a selfish hedonist.

    Recently, I came across some writings by Peter Wessel Zapffe, that seemed to ring true with my current core beliefs. What I got from it was that humans are basically animals

    That's all that we are.

    with highly evolved intelligence and consciousness, who develop coping mechanisms - mainly rejection of negative thought, anchoring on items or ideas of importance, and distraction - to deal with the absurdity of life.

    That "absurdity" is a problem to some Western philosophers and gloomy writers. Some Atheists, lacking the support, "meaning" and "purpose" that some people get from the official, organized Western fundamentalist religious denominations, feel lost and without meaning.

    See above.

    In the absence or rejection of such coping mechanisms, one can end up over-thinking life, and searching for meaning where no such meaning exists.

    Over-thinking life is a good description of what comes from many Western philosophers and other writers, who make a nonexistent problem and issue about "meaning".

    My hope is that the same 'over-evolved' brain that finds despair in lack of meaning

    That "lack of meaning" is a fictitious problem invented by some Atheists who feel that life is meaningless without formal, official, dogmatic fundamentalist Western religion.

    Such writers find despair in their alleged lack of meaning, but that's just them. Leave them to their lack of meaning. It's only theirs.

    ... can move past this dilemma in a positive way. Perhaps if I can accept that life has no great purpose

    ...other than Lila.

    (or none that will be undeniably proven during my lifetime), I can be content with focusing on satisfying what seem to be our basic instinctive needs - food, shelter, family, community, love, freedom from pain, etc.

    Those coincide with some of the other Purusharthas:

    Food, shelter, freedom from pain, come under the purushartha called "Artha", or "getting-by". It isn't the primary purpose, but of course is still necessary.

    Love, and being there for your family, spouse, significant-other, and best-friends, comes under the category of Dharma.

    Dharma can be extended to a larger community, but I hesitate to make that inclusion, because it can be questionable. For example, it seems to me that there isn't anything at all that we can do to save society, and so we aren't responsibility for its dive into the toilet.

    Michael Ossipoff
  • Posty McPostface
    5.1k
    If peace of mind were an achievement, it would have to be the achievement of an unpeaceful, striving mind. But it is not an achievement at all, but simply what happens when one stops trying to make a delicious cake out of shit.unenlightened

    Then, are you advocating complacency? Because it is quite a burden to live with depression as you must know all too well based off of experience with the ill. I've already posted around here about accepting depression and learning to live with it; but, I feel that is a hard task to do.
  • unenlightened
    2.7k
    Then, are you advocating complacency? Because it is quite a burden to live with depression as you must know all too well based off of experience with the ill. I've already posted around here about accepting depression and learning to live with it; but, I feel that is a hard task to do.Question

    I don't think accepting or rejecting makes much difference, and certainly not complacency. It's not like a rucksack you can take off. But understanding transforms.

    I can't be an internet therapist, but there is indeed a hard task involved in understanding oneself without making that separation of 'me' understanding 'depression'. Depression has to understand and 'see through' itself. Normally, feelings are like the British weather - every five minutes it's different. When a feeling persists and is not obviously caused by a repetitive provocation, it is likely to be the result of a trauma. Trauma produces 'unbearable' feelings ( I use scare quotes because no feeling can be beyond the limits of sensitivity, so strictly it should be 'unacceptable'). One response to such feelings is to press them down from conscious to unconscious and this is depression.

    All of which is of little help to anyone who is depressed, except to imply the nature of the hard task, which is to find the feeling behind the feeling. Depression in this understanding is a remedy for a feeling that is worse than feeling depressed, so the cure is to rip the depressive bandage off the unhealed wound. Don't be alone when you do it.
  • Posty McPostface
    5.1k


    So, according to what you're saying, depression is a coping mechanism, and to get rid of depression one has to understand the reason why there is such a coping mechanism in place. Is that right?

    If so, then how is it that depression is such a 'bad' coping mechanism that leads to thoughts about suicide? Or are suicide and depression two separate things? And who gets to decide what feeling they want to feel in the first place, as if depression is a defense mechanism, like a faulty thermostat?

    I mean, it's a sad state to live in where most people who are depressed don't get better. What do you attribute that fact to?
  • unenlightened
    2.7k
    So, according to what you're saying, depression is a coping mechanism, and to get rid of depression one has to understand the reason why there is such a coping mechanism in place. Is that right?Question

    Yes, I think so.

    If so, then how is it that depression is such a 'bad' coping mechanism that leads to thoughts about suicide? Or are suicide and depression two separate things? And who gets to decide what feeling they want to feel in the first place, as if depression is a defense mechanism, like a faulty thermostat?Question

    It's bad, but not as bad as what it's coping with, kind of like heroin. And suicide is a great cure for depression as it is for heroin addiction, or any problem that cannot be faced. When you ask who decides, you expose the division between one who feels and cannot cope, and one who copes but cannot feel. to talk about a defence mechanism is to separate oneself from 'it' the mechanism. The end of the depression is the end of the division - I cannot cope and I cannot feel, and yet I feel and cope. There is no other, no illness or syndrome or mechanism or illness or depression, or unconscious trauma,
    it is all me.

    I mean, it's a sad state to live in where most people who are depressed don't get better. What do you attribute that fact to?Question

    It hurts to get better; it is a fate worse than death. You need a friend, and friends are hard to come by, and even harder to recognise.
  • Posty McPostface
    5.1k
    When you ask who decides, you expose the division between one who feels and cannot cope, and one who copes but cannot feel. to talk about a defence mechanism is to separate oneself from 'it' the mechanism. The end of the depression is the end of the division - I cannot cope and I cannot feel, and yet I feel and cope. There is no other, no illness or syndrome or mechanism or illness or depression, or unconscious trauma,
    it is all me.
    unenlightened

    My rationale was that accepting depression would seem to blur the line between the rational analytic mind and the emotional and emphatic persona. But, accepting doesn't seem to do much at all apart from giving in to the depression and laying in bed all day in hope that the tide recedes and other emotions take hold. There isn't much that can be said about depression apart from the fact that it sucks, and is very elusive and tricky in nature. Thanks for posting anyway, even though no solution seems within sight to pursue after, only apathy and angst.

    EDIT: Given the rather bleak situation, I am trying to figure out how to live with the depression. I already take the happy pills along with some rather potent antipsychotic medicine. The combination leaves me rather dulled out; but, able to cope with the depression. I, however, see the futility in addressing the issue ad hoc, when it's rather a specific thing or issue. So to speak, to put a band-aid on top of another band-aid and hope the rumination and angst will subside. I wonder how long I can keep up this double band-aid on a festering and sore 'limb'/psyche.

    I don't think the depression will ever go away; but, can't incorporate this aspect of myself into my self-image. I feel like an old man, while still in my relative youth looking for a way out with none in sight. Alright, end rant.
  • unenlightened
    2.7k
    I wish I could be more help, you don't sound to be in a good place. All I can say is that if you do nothing, nothing much will happen. Look for any way to improve your environment, with particular emphasis on the people around you. Have you seen 'What about Bob'? My all time favourite film - seriously funny and funnily, serious. Walk in nature - trees are very good therapists, and exercise helps. Life is made of small things; clean sheets, drawing or painting, coffee with a friend. When you're down in a hole, life looks very big and far away and hard to get to, but is really quite close, and what looks impossible isn't that hard if you start from where you are and aim for a better place. Try to be a good friend to yourself, which means accepting what you are and trying to be better.
  • Posty McPostface
    5.1k


    Oh, no, there's nothing I can do to repay you for the advice you've given to countless members throughout the years at the old PF and here. I'm just happy I could rationalize my feeling via this online forum and dialectical method. It helps tremendously to be able to sort through the multitude of thoughts and emotions swelling inside. Although, I do know you aren't a fan of the rationalization part it is essential to understanding the beast that depression is.

    I'll watch 'What about Bob?' if you watch Tarkovsky's 'Solaris' if you haven't seen it already. Based on what I know about you and your past I think you'll find it to have a very personal message. I'm not a big fan of comedies, as I'm socially awkward and don't understand jokes that well. For the majority of time, you'd think I'm autistic in person.

    Yes, I do like trees and plants. I figure a positive step forward for me is to learn how to play the piano. I think it would be a good outlet for some pent up emotions and such yad ya da.

    I'm not in a terrible place, just rather my attitude is the issue. I have a roof over my head, someone that cares about me, and some other stuff that I should be grateful for.

    I've also decided to switch my sleep and wake patterns. For some reason, I do better at night when everyone else is asleep and nobody to bother me. My mind picks up around 9 PM until daylight. I figure I can get more done during the day when I'm left alone at night to study or contemplate things in peace.

    Do you mind if I ask a personal question? Are you depressed yourself or has that emotion ever 'infected' you during your working years while dealing with other depressed patients? If so, does it bother you? Depression itself does not bother me per se, just the suicidal thoughts. I figure to try and make the best of what I am. I've abused stimulants in the past; but, the artificial motivation is just artificial and my best thoughts are done when sober or in a state of semi depression. There are positives to being depressed also as strange as that sounds. I guess it's just another step in my psycho-evolution.
  • unenlightened
    2.7k
    Do you mind if I ask a personal question? Are you depressed yourself or has that emotion ever 'infected' youQuestion

    No, never. I get dispirited, despairing, discouraged, mightily pissed off, sometimes uncaring for self or other, hatred of self and/or other, as well as more pleasant acceptable feelings. But not depressed, as I understand it from others, no fog - the shit is full hd colour and smellovision.
  • Bitter Crank
    6.5k
    I've also decided to switch my sleep and wake patterns. For some reason, I do better at night when everyone else is asleep and nobody to bother me. My mind picks up around 9 PM until daylight. I figure I can get more done during the day when I'm left alone at night to study or contemplate things in peace.Question

    Reversing day and night isn't a big problem AS LONG AS you are actually getting enough quality sleep during the day. People really do need around 8 hours of normal sleep. Poor sleep or insufficient sleep degrades cognitive functions when one is chronically tired; it also aggravates depression. Getting 8 hours of good sleep definitely will not cure depression, but most people feel much better when they get it.

    I too enjoy being awake and active late at night (say, up to 3:00 A.M. or so) and if I sleep till noon, I feel good.
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