• Brendan Golledge
    116
    Here is a chart of the traditional political chart https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:919/1*yn-tJMwT0gdu3HwfpWMa5A.png

    Here is a chart of the political trichotomy, which I learned about from TFM: https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fqsnxaptds1b51.png%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D1f15f7baf80fdfe1dc38918099844db76fd7ff4e

    Here is a youtube series where TFM talks about the political trichotomy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL1FnWiF5T0&list=PLlcjRWT27kLvVk3pBuJ6wnGXOwtM93WOz

    The Model in General:

    The political trichotomy was created to address the fact that the libertarian left practically doesn't exist. I think the trichotomy makes a lot of sense from an empirical standpoint. It explains why communists think that everyone else is Hitler, why fascists think that communists and capitalists are the same, and why libertarians think that fascists and communists are the same. It also explains why the political right is divided.

    The 3 axes of the model are communism/equality, individualism/freedom, and authoritarianism/stability. I thought a lot about whether these 3 axes are really the correct ones. Are these 3 axes really mutually exclusive and complete? Could there be (theoretically) be political viewpoints other than these? And there don't seem to be clear definitions (like does "freedom" include both personal freedom and political freedom? Does "equality" mean equality of outcome or equality of opportunity?). Also, does it make sense, for instance, that the opposite of communism is Darwinism, and that Darwinism is halfway between freedom and stability?

    As for the Darwinism question, it makes sense that both individualists and authoritarians share a common view on this. The authoritarians could say, "It is right that the best should rise to the top and rule," and the individualists would say, "We can't find out who is the best unless people compete in a fair playing field." But is Darwinism truly the opposite of equality? People could theoretically be unequal because God made different castes of people (this is a totally different explanation for inequality than Darwinism). But I suppose no one today believes in God-given castes. So, I don't think Darwinism is strictly speaking a unique opposite of communism/equality, but in today's political environment, most people who believe in inequality would do so for Darwinian reasons. So, I conclude that this chart doesn't make sense from a strictly logical perspective, but practically speaking, it does a good job of describing the current political landscape.

    It seems to me that in theory, there could be an infinite number of possible political values, and that without making assumptions about how the material world works, they wouldn't usually be related to each other (except when "value B" is defined to be the same as NOT "value A"). So, there is no way to prove that the 3 axes in the political trichotomy are complete (able to describe the full range of political values), nor describe how they interact, without making some assumptions about how the material world operates.

    It seems to me in practice, that any value other than freedom itself implies not freedom. For instance, I made up the completely arbitrary value that we like to paint pink elephants on the walls of buildings. If a government were to try to implement this value, it would take away people's freedom to do things other than paint pink elephants. I expect it would be the same with virtually any other value you could think up; valuing one thing means not valuing people's freedom to not do that thing.

    Communism seems to inherently imply tyranny. To prove this, I thought about 3 different ideas of "equality". Note that the first 2 are moral precepts and the last one is a factual statement.
    1. Equality of outcome
    2. Equality of opportunity
    3. Equality by nature

    It seems to me that usually communists believe in #3 (that people are equal by nature), so that if you have equality of opportunity, you'd expect equality of outcome. Individualists tend to disbelieve in equality by nature, which means that if there is equality of opportunity, they do not expect equality of outcome.

    If 3 is true, then 2 implies 1. If 3 is not true, then 1 implies not 2.

    I do not believe in equality by nature. So, I believe that when the communists try to force equality of outcome, they are destroying equality of opportunity. "Equality of opportunity" seems to be roughly equivalent to "freedom". And if "tyranny" is the opposite of "freedom", then communism is inherently tyrannical, ie, NOT free. But in the political trichotomy, "tyranny" is seen as being halfway between communism and absolutism. So, in my view of the world, the political trichotomy is wrong for seeming to suggest that it's possible to have an untyrannical communism. In order to force people to have equal outcomes, the communists have to take away people's freedom, because by nature we are not equal.

    I started thinking about this simply to try to verify/refine the model, but couldn't do so without introducing my own values and my own views about how the world works. So, much of my thought ended up pointing me towards a particular political philosophy, rather than comparing political philosophies. I think alignment with one political ideology or another would probably always depend not only on one's values, but also on one's view of how the world actually works.

    In my case, I started off thinking that my primary value was "survival", which seemed to me to be more aligned towards Darwinism than towards purely freedom or purely authoritarianism. But the kind of government I thought up is basically the same as historical authoritarian governments, so perhaps what others would call "stability", which leads them towards authoritarianism, is what I called "survival", and these are really the same thing.

    I'm going out on a limb here, but I think it may be the case that communists believe that people are by nature equal, and the right disagrees. It may be that those who believe in freedom believe that humans are not by nature equal, but we are on the whole good and smart. Authoritarians are pessimists who believe that we are not equal and that most people are stupid and bad.

    My own Political Preferences:

    Going more in-depth into my own beliefs, the primary political value I believe in is survival. I also believe in the following facts about the world:
    • Many people are fools (ie, they don't know their own interests)
    • Survival can sometimes be difficult and require wise choices
    • Most people are selfish
    • Practical decisions require detailed knowledge of one's circumstances

    If many/most people are fools, and if survival requires wise choices, then it follows that if everyone is allowed an equal say in politics, then the state will likely make foolish choices that result in its own destruction. I would rather that the state survive, so, I am against political freedom for the general public.

    In a vote, you need to convince the majority. The majority will not vote for the best idea/person if they can't understand it. That means that you consistently get the average in a democracy. If the average is stupid and bad, however, then you consistently get stupid and bad. In contrast, if government is taken by subterfuge or force, then that's a filter which stops people who are altogether foolish from getting power. It's random in that case whether the person who gets power is benevolent. The distant descendants of the founder of a dynasty are probably more or less similar to the general population, and therefore it's random whether the one who inherits a kingdom is good or bad. So, I believe that the leaders of democracies are consistently bad, the founders of monarchies are at least wise (if not always benevolent), and it's hit or miss whether the monarchs who inherit a kingdom are good or bad.

    I also believe, however, that individuals need to be able to act in their own interests in order to survive, so that I am largely in favor of personal freedom. This may seem contradictory to what I said before (in that people are fools), but I believe an individual is more likely to know what is good for him in his personal life than to know what is good for him politically. The individual is also familiar with all his personal circumstances, and it's not possible that the state could be familiar with everyone's personal circumstances. I also believe that it is better to allow an individual to destroy himself with his own foolishness (which is what personal freedom would allow) than to allow him to bring the whole state down with him (which is what political freedom would allow). Likewise, if the state focuses on the issues of the state and doesn't interfere in personal lives, then when the state is foolish, there is some hope that the people as a whole may not be too badly harmed. But if the state interferes in people's personal decisions in a foolish manner, then the people may be very badly hurt (such as when communists cause famines). So, I believe that individual people should mostly focus on their own personal lives, and the state should mostly focus only on things pertaining to the state (like collecting taxes, punishing criminals and rebels, and repelling foreign invasion). In this case, foolishness in one entity will less likely cause harm to entities outside of itself.

    The fact that most people are selfish also means that when there is a conflict between his own interests and the interest of the general public, a ruler will usually choose his own interest. This means that it's generally better to be ruled by principles (whether they be religious or legal) than by men. This is also an argument in favor of monarchy, because it causes the personal interests of the sovereign to be more closely aligned with the public interest.

    All these thoughts together produce the following concept of a government. There is a monarch which has absolute executive power. There is no legislature at all, because the law is simple and immutable. The king executes the immutable law. However, if there is no power to rebel against the monarchy, then in practice, the law has no power over the monarch. So, there must be an armed populace and some local political organization in order for there to be a threat of rebellion in the case of abuses by the monarch. But the monarch would be supreme in ordinary circumstances. I tried to derive this from first principles, but I ended up producing a form of government that looks basically the same as feudalism.

    I have heard it argued that feudal kings actually had very little power for a variety of reasons. One is that the populace was very religious and had good knowledge of its traditions, so that the whole population would reject novel abuses by the king. Another was that the king relied on vassal lords to raise armies for him, so that there would be a threat of rebellion in the case that the king angered his vassals.

    I have also heard it argued that feudalism was very robust. One of the reasons for this was that a kingdom actually contained many semi-independent bodies, so that the failure of any individual piece did not mean the failure of the system as a whole.

    It makes sense that I came to like feudalism. My primary political goal is to ensure the survival of the state and the people. Feudalism arose out of the collapse of the Roman empire. It must have been a time of total chaos, in which the people were happy to stick with whatever worked to bring stability to their lives. Feudalism perhaps is not an outgrowth of any particular ideal, but simply what arose spontaneously and managed to survive in a very unstable environment.

    It also seems to me that Feudalism actually is very similar to the American republic in some respects. It seems to me that both systems like rule of law, but whereas the law in feudal kingdoms is often implicit and/or expressed in religious language, the law in the American republic was explicit and expressed in legal language. Feudalism also relied on local political organization that could threaten rebellion, same as with the original vision of the USA. Both systems also put the executive authority in hands of a single person.

    It seems to me that the ideas of the enlightenment did not produce only benefit in the political sphere. It is true that the rights of the king were arbitrary. But while it is a benefit that elected officials can be peacefully removed if they are incompetent, a monarch has the benefit of being able to guide the nation in a single direction for a whole lifetime, and of being above bribery. Democracies in contrast flip flop constantly and are plagued by bribery.

    As for the arbitrariness of royal authority: if most people are too stupid to be trusted with government, then this is how it has to be. If a person were wise enough to understand why he would wreck the state if he were given the reigns, then he'd probably actually be wise enough to have some say in government. So, the only way to explain to fools why they should stay in their lane is that the king has special authority and you don't and you just have to accept it.

    I also had the thought that if there truly was no way to update legislature (as I suggested above would be ideal), then any mistake in the law, or any novel situation, could be a threat to the survival of the state. Given Goedel's theorem (which states that a system cannot be both complete and consistent), one ought to expect that mistakes are found or that novel situations eventually occur. But leaving the door open to revision also opens the door to foolishness, which occurs much more frequently than genuinely novel situations. I don't have a perfect solution to this problem.

    I suppose the greatest problem of social organization is how to create stable social systems that last multiple generations when most people are fools and wisdom seems to be poorly heritable. I have argued that something like feudalism is a good answer, but it is not perfect because it still relies on imperfect people to execute it. Maybe other political forms would be better if people were different than they are.

    I will end this essay on a disappointing note. If it's true that it's better to be ruled by principles/laws than by the arbitrary whims of men, and if it's also true that many/most people are fools, then you ought to expect that democratic processes rarely/never produce wise laws. Therefore, if wise laws ever do appear, they appear most-likely from men who take government by force. Being able to take a government by force is a filter which ought to weed out very foolish people. But it's a matter of chance whether the man who takes government by force is benevolent. In conclusion, whether a person lives in a just society is mostly a matter of luck, and we ought to expect some degree of injustice more frequently than we would expect wise laws that are faithfully executed, and so the typical person simply has to endure whatever his state would do to him.
  • apokrisis
    7.3k
    The 3 axes of the model are communism/equality, individualism/freedom, and authoritarianism/stability. I thought a lot about whether these 3 axes are really the correct ones. Are these 3 axes really mutually exclusive and complete?Brendan Golledge

    I would take the systems science view on this. Society in general is based on the "political" dichotomy of competition~cooperation. The system needs to be tuned so there is a broad level of global cooperation – a system that everyone agrees they are part of and bound by – but also still have a creative local freedom. To work well, the individual should be as free as possible to make intelligent and adaptive choices.

    So there is a general balancing act between global cooperation and local competition. A hierarchical order that expresses a scalefree or fractal balance. That is, the dichotomy is being implemented with equal strength across all levels of social structure.

    If democracy is the general mechanism for balancing the needs of the collective against the wishes of the individual, then a well-balance society has families being democratic (rather than authoratarian or communist), as well as its governing elite also acting democratically in their relations with each other. You have ministers sat around a collectively voting cabinet table. Or even nations voting collectively at UN assemblies.

    If democracy is your balancing mechanism, then changes in level, changes in scale, should make no difference to the amount of democracy being shown. In scale symmetry terms, it should be a flat and constant balance across all levels of the social hierarchy.

    That gives us a feel for what – in hierarchy terms – an ideal balance would look like. If democracy is the balance metric you like, then the look of a society ought to be vanilla in those terms. Every higher level mimics the balance of interaction found at any lower level.

    But if we dig a little deeper, a human society is not just a political but – perhaps more fundamentally – also an economic structure. Now what is having to be balanced is not the political dialectic of competition and cooperation, but the economic dialectic of capital and labour.

    However once again, this is a dynamic that ought to be organised in a scalefree hierarchical fashion for the same reasons. A system must cohere, but it must also be free to act. A system has to hang together in a long-run stable fashion, but it must also have enough plasticity or immediate freedom to adapt and change. And a system that wants to optimise itself has to thus express that balance between stability and flexibility, conformity and independence, across all its physical scales.

    So when it comes to the economic foundation of a modern society, we would be looking for a relation between capital and labour that has that same kind of scalefree balance. Money free to act equally smartly whether it is being spent at the family or the national, and even planetary, level.

    This reframes the trichotomy as a collection of dichotomies. A modern society is having to balance both its politics and its economics. Both the information it uses to organise itself – the democratic distribution of choice – and the entropy it must consume to exist. That is, the economic distribution of resources.

    Information and entropy are two sides of the same coin. Each is about the other. So politics and economics are connected at the hip – or probably should be. Although they can seem to be different conversations.

    Anyway, systems science sets us up with a consistent central criteria. The idea of an idealised balance where both information and entropy are matchingly scalefree as an expression of social order. From top to bottom, everything looks the same even if we zoom in or zoom out in scale. No one is winning or losing in unbalanced style, even if governments can make national level choices with national level budgets while families make their household level choices with household level budgets.

    Now stack all this up against the usual authoritarian~communist dichotomy. Does it become anything more than two ways that the scalefree social hierarchy, with its need to glue politics and economics together, gets tipped out of its optimised balance?

    Democracy is just our general term for how a society delivers some appropriate degree of collectivised and informed choice. We have the political democracy of the ballot box and the economic democracy of the marketplace. An actual machinery for delivering self-organising balances at any scale of a society.

    Socialist states can work to the degree they are needed to counteract the problems of a society gone out of balance in terms of labour unfairness. Authoritarian states – like Singapore – can work to the degree they tackle social problems like a lack of collective identity or a need to direct capital into nation-building projects.

    So I don't see communism or authoritarianism as actual alternative political systems. In practice, they might be directions to tilt the general democratic and market balance for strategic reasons. A way to steer the ship.

    But to the degree they over-ride the principles of scalefree hierarchical order, they are becoming systems that would institutionalise a bad balance. They are setting themselves up for systems failure.

    The same can be said about the world's supposed "democracies" as well. If wealth or power accumulates in a bloated elite, a corrupt oligarchy, etc, then these democracies and their free markets are also failing the systems science ideal.

    Again, the basic social good to be delivered by a human social system is a fruitful balance of competition and cooperation. Political and economic theory then try to deliver these things. And hierarchy theory gives you a picture of what a well-balanced social order would then look like. Zoom in or zoom out at any level and the two imperatives would look always equally in balance across all the scales of that society.
  • Vera Mont
    4.3k
    The 3 axes of the model are communism/equality, individualism/freedom, and authoritarianism/stability.Brendan Golledge
    Then the model is fatally flawed. Consider any real-life human being. Does he or she really only need or want one singular function from their society? Or in their life?
    Those pairs of desiderata are not exclusive to the designated ideologies; in social relations, there is a great deal of overlap and concurrently existing conditions, and only one of the ideologies has a strong economic component in its name, whereas all systems are influenced, if not ruled, by their economic arrangement.
    The model is invalid, as are the assumptions that proceed from defining factions according to that model.
  • Tom Storm
    9.1k
    I find myself in agreement with some of your points. Some random reactions.

    In conclusion, whether a person lives in a just society is mostly a matter of luck, and we ought to expect some degree of injustice more frequently than we would expect wise laws that are faithfully executed, and so the typical person simply has to endure whatever his state would do to him.Brendan Golledge

    Maybe a little more American than how I would frame it, but I see your point.

    The political trichotomy was created to address the fact that the libertarian left practically doesn't exist. I think the trichotomy makes a lot of sense from an empirical standpoint. It explains why communists think that everyone else is Hitler, why fascists think that communists and capitalists are the same, and why libertarians think that fascists and communists are the same. It also explains why the political right is divided.Brendan Golledge

    I'm not sure people's political choices are much more than 'faith' based values inherited from culture and family. Post hoc rationalization provides the explanatory content. Whenever I talk to Americans there's an almost universal obsession with freedom and a fear of socialism. I don't think this necessarily comes out of any great reflection - it seems more of a cultural reflex. In Australia, in most cases buzz words like freedom and socialism don't provoke the same emotional reactions.

    Tribalism seems to explain political differences pretty well too. Tribalism is instinctive and dispositional rather than intellectual.

    The big quesion for me has always been why is it that the fiercest fights and hatreds are not between different parties, but within them. Having advised various political parties here and having met and known many insiders, it seems to me that politics is the art of never giving the game away. Telling the truth and having values are barriers to success. That said, I don't hate our political system. I'm pragmatic. I dislike the Murdoch influence and media propaganda's role in promoting panic and shaping voting patterns, but I am also suspicious of intellectuals and those who think they are above the hoi polloi.
  • NOS4A2
    9.2k


    To put the state's survival as a primary value, even though it has no organism upon which to apply any Darwinian principles in the first place, puts into immediate doubt what it is we really want to survive here. I say this because so far the supposed survival of the state appears to be no more than a noble lie, while principles regarding the control of others, the monopoly of land, a regimented society enforced by violence, or absolute power and the wealth and prestige that such a position brings, is the less-than-noble realities we're really hoping to maintain here.

    Wisdom cannot be said to rule in a domain built upon falsehoods, so it's probably best to do away with the noble lie, especially if we hold that the stupid and bad cannot rule. The problem isn't so much that authoritarianism works or can lend to the survivability of the state, it's that such a state is illegitimate, unjust, and wholly immoral. Some variation or other of slavery does work to maintain the order, at least for a while, but that something works isn't always the best course of action when it comes to dealing with other human beings. And since the whole project is about dealing with other human beings, a rather prudent question might be whether we should treat other people like this and for these reasons. If utility is one's measure here, a question might be whether the slavery of other human beings is really worth the survival of the state, even if the state has zero biology? If we cannot attend to these questions then the whole project is as immoral as it is anti-social. All I know is, if your state were to disappear tomorrow the people who it was meant to keep in order would still be there, getting along fine enough, so the state's survival ought to be at best a secondary concern.

    What is TFM?
  • Harry Hindu
    5.1k

    The solution is realizing that we are not sheep, or at least not just sheep. We are sheep with sharp teeth and claws (2nd amendment), or maybe just cats. The ultimate solution would be lab-grown meat for the wolf and farmer. :nerd:
  • Brendan Golledge
    116
    I read your post. It sounds like you are offering your own political model rather than addressing much of anything I wrote. I might read the wiki page on systems science. I'd never heard of it before your post.

    Then the model is fatally flawed. Consider any real-life human being. Does he or she really only need or want one singular function from their society? Or in their life?Vera Mont

    If having axes make a model flawed, then all models are flawed. It sounds like you're describing 3 disconnected points rather than a triangle with an area.

    I don't really disagree with anything you said, so I don't have much to say in reply. I do think that most political opinions are cultural. I do not think my distaste for communism comes from being an American. I know from history that communist states are tyrannical, I think I understand conceptually why that is, and history shows that communism and food are bitter enemies. I am not for sure why those who are similar seem to fight more.

    I believe the state's primary purpose is to use force to limit freedom of action in zero sum games. "Zero sum games" here mean stuff like murder and theft. If someone steals from me, I lose and he wins, so it's a zero sum game. If I go to work and help my boss make money and he gives some of it to me, then we both win, so that's not a zero-sum game, and the state doesn't need to be involved. I would much rather have a state that is zealous in punishing criminals than not have one, because otherwise I'd have to protect myself and my property against every other person by my own violence.

    For most things, I think the free market does a better job than the state, because the people involved know what they are doing and they care about it. The state, on the other hand, does not know the details of people's lives and doesn't care. However, when it comes to crime, the person I'm dealing with actively wishes me harm. In that case, I'd prefer the indifference and incompetence of the state over deliberate malice any day.

    So, I believe that the survival of a half-decent state is much better for the people than anarchy. Anarchy means that murder and theft go unpunished. I suppose from the point of view of "rights", taxation is questionable, even if it goes towards good ends, because it's involuntary. But it is hard to imagine a system of justice that would work with voluntary donations.

    It makes sense to me that anything which imperfectly replicates itself will be subject to Darwinian evolution. In that case, cultures and governments do evolve. They are just imperfectly replicated generation after generation through tradition rather than through genes. From a Darwinian perspective, you'd expect that if the state were entirely useless and stupid, that any people who lived without a state would prosper and their way of life would spread, so that states would not be common anymore. States are ubiquitous, however, so from the evolutionary perspective, you'd expect that they serve some necessary function, even if you didn't know what it was.

    It makes sense to me that the smallest self sustaining unit of humanity is the tribe. I'd define "tribe" here as a group of people who work and breed together. An individual is not self-sustaining because all men are mortal (making all of your own food/clothes/shelter/tools would also be very difficult). So you might see the "state" (or any governing body down to a local tribal chief) as the organizational body of the tribe. Without a government, the tribe would behave randomly because it is a sum of loose individuals. If there is ever a situation where it would be beneficial for the group to work together for a common goal, then a government would be useful. I am aware that sometimes governments are very bad and are worse than individuals behaving randomly without guidance.

    From your post, it seems like you are firmly in the "freedom" camp.

    "TFM" means "Turd Flinging Monkey". That's what he calls himself. He has been banished from most platforms because he says sexist things. I like to listen to him because I think he is smart and he makes me think about things. I thought the political trichotomy model he presented (I don't think he invented it) was better than the more common one, but I couldn't find anyone else who talked about.

    I like the 2nd amendment too. I think it's not useful though if people don't have discernment about when to use it. IMO, the first red line that was crossed that was worth rebelling over was the creation of the federal reserve in 1913, and there have been many more red lines crossed since then. So, I tend to think of the US Republic as being in the past tense.
  • Tom Storm
    9.1k
    I do think that most political opinions are cultural. I do not think my distaste for communism comes from being an American. I know from history that communist states are tyrannical, I think I understand conceptually why that is, and history shows that communism and food are bitter enemies.Brendan Golledge

    This itself seems to be a typical American answer. :wink: I referred to socialism not communism and perhaps like many Americans, you don't apprehend a difference? But more significantly, many American's seem to see dreaded socialism in good social policy like universal healthcare.
  • Vera Mont
    4.3k
    If having axes make a model flawed, then all models are flawed. It sounds like you're describing 3 disconnected points rather than a triangle with an area.Brendan Golledge
    It's very possible that all models are flawed; I haven't seen a large enough sample to judge. I'm saying there are not enough axes. Thus, the areas of overlap will still represent only primary coulours, rather than a spectrum. Actual social systems are far more complex and nuanced than that, and they change over time.
  • Harry Hindu
    5.1k
    I like the 2nd amendment too. I think it's not useful though if people don't have discernment about when to use it. IMO, the first red line that was crossed that was worth rebelling over was the creation of the federal reserve in 1913, and there have been many more red lines crossed since then. So, I tend to think of the US Republic as being in the past tense.Brendan Golledge
    Well, my point was that a lone wolf or farmer is less of a threat to a lone sheep with fangs and claws. It is only when the wolves or farmers organize into groups that the lone sheep with its fangs and claws would be in trouble. This is why it would be better for the lone sheep to join a group of like-minded sheep for protection. The 2nd amendment is only valid when you are in a group that respects your right to arm yourself for self-defense (like-minded). I thought I lived in such a group in the U.S. but it appears that wolves and farmers have taken over leadership positions in our group and are in the process are disarming us and limiting our freedom to speak out by using the "threat of misinformation" as a reason to silence opposing viewpoints.

    It seems to me that if extremist Democrats had their way the U.S. would be a communist country. If the extreme Republicans had their way the U.S. would be a Fascist Christian theocracy. Both extremes are authoritarian. Moderate Democrats and Republicans have some authoritarian positions and some liberal positions. In the center of the line between the two extremes you have Libertarians who have no authoritarian positions and all liberal positions. Libertarians are the true liberals not these self-proclaimed "liberals" that are really authoritarian socialists when you look at their positions.

    For a Libertarian, everyone should be able to live their lives without imposing their will on others. Once you feel the need to tell others how to live their lives or limit their choices you have crossed over into authoritarianism. Libertarians only need to group together when they are threatened by a group of authoritarians. If there were no groups of authoritarians, Libertarians would be happy to live their own lives and have the freedom to choose when to participate in a collective for the purpose of trading and accomplishing tasks that one individual could not accomplish and is beneficial to the individual and the group.

    Personally, I think we should abolish political parties. That should blur the lines of division a bit where individuals are no longer looking for their partisan marching orders from their political party but would need to educate themselves on the positions of candidates running for office. Moderate candidates would be able to stick to their principles instead of being threatened by the extremists in on of the political parties to go along with their extremist agenda to receive support from the party in their next elections cycle. There would be less bias in the media as there wouldn't be a team to be the mouth-piece for.
  • Brendan Golledge
    116
    I don't really disagree strongly with anything you said. it's hard for me to say much when I agree because there is really nothing to argue about.

    I would argue that we are already halfway to communism. Having a central bank and public schooling are communist tenants. Private property rights are also being eroded by things like the eviction moratorium during covid. It could get worse in the future.

    I think libertarians are closest to the original idea of the USA. But I think the USA was de facto Christian when it was built. The separation of church and state was made when the choices were basically Catholic and different kinds of Protestantism, and was made to avoid bickering between Christian denominations (I think they didn't want anything like the 30 years war happening in the USA). However, the people at the time had broadly Christian values, even if they didn't explicitly write them into law. So, I don't see the the Christian fundamentalists as being entirely contrary to the original spirit of the USA, even if they are contrary to the letter of the law.

    As for abolishing political parties, I think it sounds good in theory, but it's not going to happen practically. I suppose my original discussion was also entirely theoretical.
  • NOS4A2
    9.2k


    Thank you for your thoughts.

    I don't believe in spectrums or any other kind of political geometry because people and populations are not shaped that way. You can place me wherever you wish on your own, but I find no affiliation with people I do not know, so any camp I might find myself in is wholly contrived and imagined,

    I suppose I hold a more favorable view of human beings, and support a different theory regarding the formation of a state. I don’t believe many people would descend into chaos and crime should the state disappear tomorrow, and if some would, there is a vast majority of people who would oppose them. I hold to the conquest theory of state formation, that states begin as institutions to exploit the vanquished, and serves to protect the exploiters from threats from within and without. It’s mandate has never changed, except to absorb and replace initiative with obedience.

    As such I fear the state for the same reason you fear the criminal, and for practically the same reasons. History attests to their numerable crimes and it isn’t too much of a stretch, I think, to call it a criminal organization. It’s little more than a protection racket. It survives on the exploitation of the people, through theft and forced labor. It commits murder and atrocity on an industrial scale. It moves quickly towards anything that accrues to its own benefit while slowly and begrudgingly towards anything that accrues to ours. It’s authority is illegitimate. That murder, theft, forced labor, all go unpunished, and even treated as a moral duty.

    Perhaps worse than it’s numerous, daily, and unmitigated crime spree is the effects such a relationship has with flesh-and-blood human beings, living as they are in a kind of serfdom. I guess that’s like the social Darwinism you’re speaking of, except the culture isn’t treated here like a biological being. Every day we get state power and faith in State power increasing, social power and faith in social power diminishing. Reliance on the scraps from the state’s table increases, while reliance on oneself and one’s social circle dissolves. Forced and artificial cooperation replaces voluntary, natural cooperation. And so on, progressively, until full-on domestication.

    At any rate, our preferences differ.
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