Also, the whole idea of catharsis was central to his perspective on therapy. The idea was that the ventilation of emotional expression is the road to 'cure'. This was based on his work with patients.

The problem which I see is that it does not always follow that ventilation of emotions and traumatic experiences will lead to a cure and the CBT therapists see him psychodynamic therapy as placing too much emphasis on the past. — Jack Cummins

Interesting to read your thoughts on Freud. I have sympathy with the idea of 'ventilation' - or talk therapy being available as a treatment not a 'cure'. Are they the same thing? I think letting all emotions out can open a can of worms, making matters worse. A bit like the punch-bag theory of anger management. It is only a temporary release or relief. But again, it depends on the aims and abilities of both therapist and client...

However, the emphasis he placed on sexuality had a profound influence on culture and dealing with the repression of sexual aspects of life. It may be central to pleasure itself and it would be hard to imagine trajedy without a sexual aspect.

The nature of trajedy itself may be about the way in which sexuality causes conflict and potential destruction. His philosophy, which drew upon mythology, emphasised the tension between Eros and Thanatos, the life and death drives/instincts. — Jack Cummins

Sex/uality and the tragedy/pleasure/comic aspects of life/death survival instincts...
I can't help coming back to Deadwood. The discussion has been informative but there is something still nagging at me. Troubling even, as I also consider the possibility of 'catharsis' in viewers. What is it that mostly gives 'pleasure'? Male and female camaraderie?

This morning, I read something by @Wayfarer - I hope he doesn't mind me transferring his thoughts here?:

On the other hand, humanists, existentialists, and secularists who hold notions of "virtue" or "civic virtue" argue that Enlightenment values can temper the excesses of pure hedonism in a secularized society.
— schopenhauer1

I read years ago that sexual products and services including production and distribution of pornography generate many times the revenue of, say, sports broadcasting. I see not a lot of comment from those espousing ‘enlightenment values’ in that regard. When there’s discussion of the possible connection between pornography and sexual violence against women, there’s a lot of throat-clearing about the evils of censorship and a correct understanding of ‘consent’. — Wayfarer

When people watch or read anything concerning sexual violence to any person, gender or age, does it only become a problem when there is addiction? If compulsively following a drama series of violent, degrading behaviour, what kind of 'catharsis' is being felt or even recognised?

... other 'big' TV series like  Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Succession, etc. Well written and performed, but I just don't care about the stories or the characters.

No fuckin' doubt, Tom, we be a couple of dusty ol' cocksuckers drinkin' from the same crack'd bottle ... like all them other hoopleheads down on their fuckin' luck, laughin' and pissin' it all away in that limey cocksucker Swearengen's saloon. :smirk: — 180 Proof

I haven't watched any of the series mentioned. Perhaps I just don't care to, for whatever reason.
What is it about the stories or characters that you don't care about? And what makes Al someone you are attracted to?

Be careful @180 Proof being a cocksucker and drinking from a cracked bottle holds all kinds of terrors -germs...bacteria and viruses. But hey, seize the day, eh? Even if only in your imagination...

Thanks for your reply because I have almost abandoned my thread in the last few days. That is because I am so stressed out as I found out this week that the place where I am living is probably going to be repossessed this week. I know that it is horrible (bed bugs) but I went through a repossession eviction a year and a half ago which was so stressful...

One of the ways which is see trajedy and pleasure is that pleasure may be an antidote to suffering. The quote you gave from@Wayfarer regarding hedonism is interesting. The issue of perfectionism in religion has often led to repressed pleasure.

Going back to Freud's ideas, catharsis involves sexuality but trauma too. It also involves the whole spectrum of love and hatred, with aggression sometimes being a source of cathartic pleasure.

I am wondering about this in relation to the outbreak of the current outbreak of riots in the UK. In some ways it is the opposite to the Brixton riots which were based on opposition to racism. Rioting may be the expression of deep anger and hatred, like the expression of primordial anger of the tribe in the form of cathartic aggression in real life as opposed to in the form of the arts.

TV series like  Sopranos, Breaking Bad,  Succession, etc ...

What is it about the stories or characters that you don't care about? — Amity

I'm neither intrigued with nor inspired by long-form or episodic stories about contemporary (i.e. clichéd) gangsters, drug dealers and plutocrats, respectively. Those 'worlds' are too prosaic and banal for me to imagine myself 'being there'.

And what makes Al someone you are attracted to?

Poetry. I'm "attracted to" all the very human, Deadwood characters, major and minor, because each one is an oracle of syntaxes and silences, profanities and humor peculiar to that imaginary-historical place. I'm even more "attracted to" the female and beta-male (i.e. quasi-Beckettian) characters than I am to Al Swearengen (even though he tends to be more quotable and one of the two main protagonists, the other being Seth Bullock).

A quick response. Sorry to hear of your increased stress levels and continuing insecurity concerning a safe and affordable place to live in London. Pleasure may well be 'an antidote to suffering' - how would that work in your case? Coming here and 'ventilating'? But it doesn't solve any underlying problems or the causes of suffering. Any type at any level.

Going back to Freud's ideas, catharsis involves sexuality but trauma too. It also involves the whole spectrum of love and hatred, with aggression sometimes being a source of cathartic pleasure. — Jack Cummins

Yes. And how quickly we go from one extreme of the spectrum to the other. Too many absolute statements being made and positions taken. The either/or scenario plain to witness in American politics and beyond. High stakes in being seen as a white 'saviour'.
Now, Harris is viewed as the smiling figure of Hope (Love) contrasted to Trump's growling aggression stirring Fear (Hate). It's never as simple as that, away from the cameras, is it? The performance of actors...those behind the scenes pulling strings. They must be having a laugh as they enjoy the results of their manipulations.

I am wondering about this in relation to the outbreak of the current outbreak of riots in the UK. In some ways it is the opposite to the Brixton riots which were based on opposition to racism. Rioting may be the expression of deep anger and hatred, like the expression of primordial anger of the tribe in the form of cathartic aggression in real life as opposed to in the form of the arts. — Jack Cummins

Today's riots in England are stoked by the fascist hard right. Good to read of the counter protesting forces, here:

From Newcastle to London to Bristol, anti-racist demonstrators stood up against threat of further racist riots.

The scale of the anti-racism protests was surely sending a message: an effort to change the narrative after a week dominated by rampant far-right, anti-immigrant violence.

In Birmingham’s jewellery quarter, outside a migrant centre, they chanted “fascist scum out of Brum”.

In Liverpool they held banners such as “Nans Against Nazis”, “Immigrants welcome. Racists not” and “When the poor blame the poor only the rich win”. An elderly man with a portable speaker resting on his walking frame played John Lennon’s Give Peace a Chance on repeat. — Guardian - Protest - United against hate

I don't believe for one minute that this will be the end of it. As yet, in Scotland we have been spared. Why? Some theories:
https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/holyrood/24500512.scotland-far-escaped-riots/

Thanks for this further explanation. I understand the pleasure gained in poetry v the prosaic. You persuasive words poetic in themselves - 'an oracle of syntaxes and silences'.

Poetry. I'm "attracted to" all the very human, Deadwood characters, major and minor, because each one is an oracle of syntaxes and silences, profanies and cries peculiar to that imaginary-historical place. I'm even more "attracted to" the female and beta-male (i.e. quasi-Beckettian) characters than I am to Al Swearengen even though he tends to be more quotable and one of the two main protagonists (the other being Seth Bullock). — 180 Proof

It seems I might have to pack my bags and travel to Deadwood...

:flower:

I can tell you how pleasure as an antidote to suffering works for me. It was during and after a period in which 3 friends of mine committed suicide that led me to the path of sex, drugs and rock'n'roll. It was part of the quest for understanding, but it was also part of my attempt to indulge in pleasure as the only way which I could see to cope with the misery of the tragedies of the deaths of my friends.

Your quote and inclusion of the Scottish perspective on the riots is interesting. My own one is that they express a lot that is going on in the political unconscious in the UK. It comes at a time of mixed fear and optimism with a change of government. The right may fear that so much may change while others are hoping for change, especially from poverty and 'the cost of living' crisis.

Of course, there is the end to the plans to deport illegal immigrants which the Conservative government had begun. Also, there may be issues around religion as opposed to skin colour, especially Islam. So much has changed since the time of Muslims being seen as potential terrorists but there may be remnants of this, just as the Antisemitism is being expressed. It involves scapegoating and at the core of catharsis. But, of course there is the dynamic of the counterprotests, which is the more left wing ventilation protest about so much misery and suffering.

Thanks for sharing your loss and how you coped.

I won't indulge in more political analysis/speculation because I am not sufficiently informed and don't wish to side-track further. But I feel the need to address this:

But, of course there is the dynamic of the counterprotests, which is the more left wing ventilation protest about so much misery and suffering. — Jack Cummins

I agree that there are complex issues underlying the riots/protests that need to be addressed. However, there seems to be a significant difference in the current make-up of the vicious attacks of the hard right rioters (young, white English males) and the more peaceful anti-hate, anti-fascist protestors (a mix of all genders, age and colour coming together as a 'community').

Anything to the left of the rioters includes the centre and right of centre, not just left-wing activists.

In Walthamstow, east London, thousands took over the street outside an immigration bureau shouting “we fight back.”Newspapers from across the spectrum, including several aligned with the center-right, united in praise of the “anti-hate marchers.”

“The show of force from the police and, frankly, the show of unity from communities, together defeated the challenges that we’ve seen,” Mark Rowley, commissioner of London’s Metropolitan Police, said Thursday. — Politico - The night Britain fought back against riots

I'll end here.There's bound to be more trouble in the pipe-line but...

I definitely don't wish to derail my own thread by discussion of rioting. But, yes I fear what will follow. This is another 'What happens next...?' in real life dramas.

As far as catharsis and pleasure as an antidote, it is about the cathartic emotions on a symbolic as opposed to literal one. For example, I sometimes listen to'dark' music, such as metal, emo and goth which I find pleasure in as a form of release of angst. Some people take the view that the 'dark' aspects of the arts, like porn, is likely to generate 'dark' behaviour, such as violence. It may be that it would have some negative effects to one's mental health to indulge in dark entertainment always. However, it may be about balance, such as the need for both tragedy and comedy in drama. The symbolic expression of sex and violence in the arts is so different from its translation into such expression in human behaviour.

Ah, a muse for every purpose. I suppose... Me, I prefer one familiar spirit, even not a particularly powerful one. (My top favourite Terry Pratchett book is Small Gods.) — Vera Mont

Thanks. I found the audio re-recording and it's now 'On hold' in my Libby app. From Penguin:

Listen to 40 magnificent new re-recordings of Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, read by leading names from British stage and screen including Bill Nighy, Peter Serafinowicz, Indira Varma and Andy Serkis. This epic programme of new audiobooks truly has something for everyone. — Penguin - Discworld in Audio

I might have to say "Au Revoir!" for a spell. Looking at travel options for Deadwood...

:smile: :up: :cool:

Take care. Stay safe. :sparkle:

Thank you!

Looking at travel options for Deadwood... — Amity

Not in your present form!!! Assume a disguise that appears a lot less vulnerable.

Well, whatever makes you think I look vulnerable?!
Dae ye no' ken I'm a hard-nosed, Glaswegian bitch from hell...with the fuckin' filthiest mouth ye widnae touch wi' a barge-pole. Ma Hielan' grannie is worser than dried heather stuck up yer arse.

But kidding aside (ah'm no' frae Glesga) you're right. I never thought of that. Playing a character. What about a mix of Katherine Hepburn and Clarice Starling as shape-shifting spaced out Time Traveller...
See, I have NO imagination! All outta masks and melodrama :sad:

Dae ye no' ken I'm a hard-nosed, Glaswegian bitch from hell...with the fuckin' filthiest mouth ye widnae touch wi' a barge-pole. Ma Hielan' grannie is worser than dried heather stuck up yer arse. — Amity

They'd shoot you dead, just for being incomprehensible. Red-blooded, gun-totin' 'Merickans hate it when they don't understand something.

As for Pratchett on audio, I'm holding out for Paul McGann. He did a bunch of Doctor Who stories and a GK Chesterton that I wouldn't mind hearing.

They'd shoot you dead, just for being incomprehensible. Red-blooded, gun-totin' 'Merickans hate it when they don't understand something. — Vera Mont

That's just not gonna happen, trust me! One of my greatest talents is speech shifting to fit in with whoever's around...I'm good. And when I bring my sample bottles of malt whisky...and host tasting sessions...they'll turn soft as smashed neeps and tatties. We have our ways...yup indeedy.

Y'll take care now!

Well, whatever makes you think I look vulnerable?!
Dae ye no' ken I'm a hard-nosed, Glaswegian bitch from hell...with the fuckin' filthiest mouth ye widnae touch wi' a barge-pole. Ma Hielan' grannie is worser than dried heather stuck up yer arse. — Amity

:cool: :up: That's the fuckin' spirit, miss!

'Cept for unaccompanied progress among the many randy hoopleheads in the thoroughfare day and night and bushwhackin' dirt-worshippin' heathens on the roads to and fro, I counsel you, mam, to freely seek your fortune or demise among us, the swollen ranks of prospectin' and thievin' cocksuckers, here in Deadwood. :flower:

They'd shoot you dead, just for being incomprehensible. — Vera Mont

Especially if you make us wait a long time for the fucking elevator.

:up: :kiss:

Hilariously tragic. El-ev-en! :rofl:

It reminds me of when my car wouldn't start. I phoned breakdown and suffered my way through the menu choice. Then I had to spell out the registration number to a friendly, female computer.
''S''.
"Sorry, that number is not recognised. Please repeat."
*sighs*
I articulated a clear and careful, ''Ess!"
"Is that 'F' for Foxtrot?"
:rage: "No, it's S for..."
Hold the line...

Hilariously tragic. El-ev-en! :rofl: — Amity

Catharsis achieved? :wink: