I am no fan of Churchill, but I tend to agree with the statement (probably falsely attributed to him and loosely paraphrased) "Democratic capitalism is the worst of all possible systems, apart from all the others". — Janus

Churchill does quote it, but doesn't take credit for it. Also, there are various forms of it. See Quote Investigator.

We have no disagreement then. People should pay off their own loans that they knowingly agreed to pay. — fishfry

I thought I had already said that I don't have a problem with that. When I said that politics is a messy business, best not really be conducted in public, I was also accepting that it was a bribe to voters. All democracies do that - it's an inevitable outcome of the system. Non-democratic governments do it as well. Politicians have to keep their supporters sweet. I'm not even saying it is right, or all right, just that it always happens.

Welders don't have student loans. — fishfry

Each country has its own system. In the UK, the "trades" like welding and pipefitting, do get government support - and this is a "right-wing" government. See Skills for careers. Some people regard this as a blatant subsidy for employers, who should be paying. But there are complications.
Higher-level professions depend on degree-level courses, and these get student loans. But these are repaid on a sliding scale, dependent on you income. (Effectively, it's an additional income tax). The Government assumes that 35% to 40% of the total will never be repaid. There's your forgiveness, but sanctioned by Parliament.
Re-training is more of a problem.

And because, even if he doesn't have children, he's helping to train up the well taxed caregivers and inventors of helpful products for his old age. — Vera Mont

The working class should fund the education of the cognitive elite who will vastly out-earn them in their respective lifetimes? Did I understand you correctly?

Pretty good deal for the Eloi, but once in a while they get eaten by the Morlocks.

Churchill does quote it, but doesn't take credit for it. Also, there are various forms of it. See Quote Investigator. — Ludwig V

I believe Churchill also said that the greatest argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter. :-)

I thought I had already said that I don't have a problem with that. When I said that politics is a messy business, best not really be conducted in public, I was also accepting that it was a bribe to voters. All democracies do that - it's an inevitable outcome of the system. Non-democratic governments do it as well. Politicians have to keep their supporters sweet. I'm not even saying it is right, or all right, just that it always happens. — Ludwig V

Biden's bailout is particularly egregious, being flagrantly illegal in the first place.

Each country has its own system. In the UK, the "trades" like welding and pipefitting, do get government support - and this is a "right-wing" government. See Skills for careers. Some people regard this as a blatant subsidy for employers, who should be paying. But there are complications.
Higher-level professions depend on degree-level courses, and these get student loans. But these are repaid on a sliding scale, dependent on you income. (Effectively, it's an additional income tax). The Government assumes that 35% to 40% of the total will never be repaid. There's your forgiveness, but sanctioned by Parliament.
Re-training is more of a problem. — Ludwig V

That's very interesting! I wouldn't mind government subsidies if they're fairly distributed among the college and non-college individuals.

I believe Churchill also said that the greatest argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter. — fishfry

Yes, he did say that. He was also right about that, as well.
People are making a mistake when they think that voters need to decide on specific measures. That way, madness lies. The classic reference for this is the expedition to Sicily by Athens in 415–413 BCE. See Wikipedia - Sicilian Expedition. A better model is the Spartan one (which was a democracy, of sorts, despite rumours to the contrary); that is about consent, not decision. Which is the other point people don't seem to understand. The vote is, or should be, about legitimizing the regime, and all that requires is acquiescence, not decision. A majority vote with a choice is a way of palliating the opposition - much better than repressing it. But then, it does require that the opposition accepts defeat; when that breaks down, the system is in serious danger. (Trump!) The Government needs to secure approval of the election arrangements from the opposition - too many of them neglect that.

That's very interesting! I wouldn't mind government subsidies if they're fairly distributed among the college and non-college individuals. — fishfry

H'm. It's true that there is government support for both groups, but many people feel that there is less support for sub-degree programmes and complain about that - with justification in my view. Others complain the employers should pay for these programmes, as the primary beneficiaries - and they do pay for, and are involved in the delivery of, many of them by providing work experience.

The working class should fund the education of the cognitive elite who will vastly out-earn them in their respective lifetimes? Did I understand you correctly? — fishfry

No, you obviously don't. A pipe-fitter can have intelligent children.

Pretty good deal for the Eloi, — fishfry

Hardly; they're food source, life insurance and pension plan for your dear Morlocks.

The entire population (wherein the rich are taxed heavily, the working class lightly and the poor not at all) should fund the education of the society's young, so there is no predetermined high-earner class in the next generation.
I suspect a nation of welders would starve to death pretty fast. And a debt-driven society will inevitably collapse under the burden. Student loans - agreed to by unemployable youth who hope for a future, come at 5-15% interest. They won't earn enough to live on, let alone pay off $50, -100, 000 for years after they graduate, so the interest just keeps on accumulating. So the most ambitious and clever of them will vie for the lucrative corporate and money-shuffling jobs that do nothing for the population - because they can't afford to work in low-paid public service or helping professions.
That welder who'd rather see his taxes go toward militarizing the police is doing his family no favours.

No, you obviously don't. A pipe-fitter can have intelligent children. — Vera Mont

Can. But most likely won't.

Why? Do pipes mess up adults' DNA?

:roll:

IQ is highly inheritable under normal conditions. Profession correlates strongly with IQ. Therefore, in an unskewed sample of pipe-fitters, most of them will not have intelligent children.

Profession correlates strongly with IQ. — Lionino

Profession corresponds strongly to background, expectation, opportunity and the economy. Even the dumbest offspring of CEO's and department store magnates are aimed at university from their gold-plated cradle, through top-flight nursery school through tutors at prep school, and if that doesn't work, their parents can buy a test-stand-in or a department chair. Even the brightest offspring of dock-workers have a hard time getting through high school.

in an unskewed sample of pipe-fitters, — Lionino

In a capitalist system, there are no unskewed samples of anything.

A pipe-fitter can have intelligent children. — Vera Mont

in an unskewed sample of pipe-fitters, most of them will not have intelligent children. — Lionino

My father was a member of Plumbers & Pipe-fitters Local No. 5 for 35 years, though he spent most of that standing at a drafting table, cigarettes burning in three different ashtrays because every time he stopped to think he'd light a new one, then put it aside when he got back to it. He made beautiful drawings the men (and occasionally women) at the job site could actually use, full of thought.

I can string thoughts together pretty well. My brother, on the other hand ... Well, there's your sample.

Profession corresponds strongly to background, expectation, opportunity and the economy. — Vera Mont

You just made those up.

Even the dumbest offspring of CEO's and department store magnates are aimed at university from their gold-plated cradle, through top-flight nursery school through tutors at prep school, and if that doesn't work, their parents can buy a test-stand-in or a department chair — Vera Mont

It doesn't quite work like that.




The truth is that in a volatile society (pick your examples), environmental factors will be stronger. In a more equal and stable society, like the Scanvinavian countries before the refugee crisis, we see the true extent in which genetics plays a role. The same happens between sexes, where at MENA women often pick up engineering, while in more equal societies men pick up sciences and tech while women go for health and arts.

As we see from the graph, years of education is just as or less important than intelligence. If intelligence wasn't that important, we would see much higher variation in those less privileged occupations. But it isn't so, most fall under 95, the variation is small.
Such is the reality of genetic determinism, life sucks.

when that breaks down, the system is in serious danger. (Trump!) — Ludwig V

Actually it's Biden who engaged in election denialism this week when he gave the Presidential medal of freedom to Al Gore, in part for not disputing the 2000 election that he allegedly won. In truth, Gore did lose that election, and he also did dispute the hell out of it, all the way up to the Supreme court.

I'll bow out of this thread now. I engage in partisan politics on this forum on a very limited basis these days. I prefer not to take this bait any more than necessary. Appreciate the insightful chat about education policy.

I suspect a nation of welders would starve to death pretty fast. — Vera Mont

A nation of farmers would live a lot longer than a nation of comparative literature majors, I'm sure you agree. The trades are "real work." Tradesmen built the college buildings, they operate the plumbing and the electricity and haul the trash. Without them, the lotus eaters would not be able to function at all. That's the parable of the Eloi and the Morlocks. The Eloi forgot how to make or build or create or maintain. All that's done for them by the dirty, underground, loathsome Morlocks. A metaphor for the attitude of the elite towards the working class today. And that's why it's good to recall that the Morlocks eat the Eloi from time to time.

And a debt-driven society will inevitably collapse under the burden. — Vera Mont

The US is $35T in debt and still spending like a drunken sailor. Though as Ronald Reagan quipped, at least the drunken sailor is spending his own money.

Student loans - agreed to by unemployable youth who hope for a future, come at 5-15% interest. They won't earn enough to live on, let alone pay off $50, -100, 000 for years after they graduate, so the interest just keeps on accumulating. — Vera Mont

There's a reason the cost of school keeps going up: government guaranteed student loans. Under that system the schools have no incentive to keep costs down. The banks are willing to lend to people who will never pay them back, since the taxpayers backstop the loans. The result is massive inflation in college costs, far outpacing the inflation rate of other goods and services. And now the students don't have to pay the loans back at all, and the $35T-indebted taxpayers get loaded up with still more debt.

When this whole thing crashes everyone's going to go, "Oh how did we let it get this bad?" But till that day ... party on. Stick the grandkids with the bill. It's really a depraved thing, what the US is doing with its own economy, running up a tab it can never pay.

So the most ambitious and clever of them will vie for the lucrative corporate and money-shuffling jobs that do nothing for the population - because they can't afford to work in low-paid public service or helping professions. — Vera Mont

Yes, and this is my point. Government-backed student loans that then don't even need to be paid are a moral hazard and a great distortion of the labor market. Better to give each high school graduate $100k and let them spend it in college or trade school or party it all away. It would be a better system than what we have now.

That welder who'd rather see his taxes go toward militarizing the police is doing his family no favours. — Vera Mont

It's not the welders who have militarized the police. That trend started when the big-name Democrats like Pelosi, Hillary Clinton, Schumer, and Biden (as Senator) signed on to Bush's illegal wars. When the wars wound down, all that military hardware was given to local police departments. We then saw the MRAPs and other military hardware on the streets of the US during Occupy and later at Ferguson. It wasn't the welders. They don't set government policy.

The trades are "real work." Tradesmen built the college buildings, they operate the plumbing and the electricity and haul the trash. — fishfry

Sure. But a society needs a variety of skills. And it needs to recognize the need for education, and the need for recognition of talent, in whatever class, whether they can play basketball or not, whether they can afford a huge debt-load or not.

A metaphor for the attitude of the elite towards the working class today. — fishfry

You're lecturing a communist about the working-class and elitism?

The US is $35T in debt and still spending like a drunken sailor. — fishfry

On many of the wrong things, because they're bound by old obligations, treaties, contracts, attitudes and fears. Investing in youth is one of the right things it should be spending on.

When this whole thing crashes everyone's going to go, "Oh how did we let it get this bad?" — fishfry

Don't they always? Then, for about 20 years, the ultra-rich keep their greed in check and their profile low. Then they start buying up politicians and smaller businesses and countries again.

It's not the welders who have militarized the police. — fishfry

Of course it isn't. But that's where their taxes go anyway, because the people who have lots of property want it protected at public expense.

Sure. But a society needs a variety of skills. And it needs to recognize the need for education, and the need for recognition of talent, in whatever class, whether they can play basketball or not, whether they can afford a huge debt-load or not. — Vera Mont

I don't believe I've said anything to lead you to believe I'm against education. I'm against Biden's illegal, election year transfer of lawful debts from the people who signed for them. to the taxpayers. Have I said anything more than that?

You're lecturing a communist about the working-class and elitism? — Vera Mont

You prefer Stalin? Or Mao? You endorse mass murder? Some of what you said sounded a bit elitist.

On many of the wrong things, because they're bound by old obligations, treaties, contracts, attitudes and fears. Investing in youth is one of the right things it should be spending on. — Vera Mont

If the US government wants to "invest in youth," as you call it, why doesn't Congress pass a law forgiving all student debt? They didn't do that. Biden has no actual authority to do it. The Supreme court has already ruled on his previous debt bailout.

I am not arguing about investment in education. I'm arguing against Biden's election year bailout of college students at the expense of the working class, whose interests you should in theory be defending.

If you are a communist, you should be agreeing with me about this! Right? Workers of the world unite, take on the debt burden of the people who will out-earn you by millions over their lives. That the story you're going with?

Don't they always? Then, for about 20 years, the ultra-rich keep their greed in check and their profile low. Then they start buying up politicians and smaller businesses and countries again. — Vera Mont

ok

It's not the welders who have militarized the police.
— fishfry
Of course it isn't. But that's where their taxes go anyway, because the people who have lots of property want it protected at public expense. — Vera Mont

You said the welders militarized the police. I pointed out that's not true.

You're quite anti-worker for a communist. Am I out of date on my understanding of communist ideology? Are today's communists all for the bourgoisie?

I don't believe I've said anything to lead you to believe I'm against education. — fishfry

Only for people who can't afford it.

You said the welders militarized the police. — fishfry

No i didn't. I said

That welder who'd rather see his taxes go toward militarizing the police is doing his family no favours. — Vera Mont

Don't tell me there isn't one single yahoo in the welder's union who wouldn't rather beef up the police than give some pansy a degree in social work. There is. And he's an idiot.

You're quite anti-worker for a communist. — fishfry

No, I'm anti representing all working class people as thinking like you.

I don't believe I've said anything to lead you to believe I'm against education.
— fishfry
Only for people who can't afford it. — Vera Mont

But I did not say that. I said that Congress should pass a law funding college costs if that's what they want. Biden's action is illegal. And as a self-described communist, I'm surprised to see you cheering on the transfer of billions of dollars in debt from the elite to the working class. You sure you're a commie? Or are all the commies elitists these days? That's what it seems like.

You said the welders militarized the police.
— fishfry
No i didn't. I said
That welder who'd rather see his taxes go toward militarizing the police is doing his family no favours. — Vera Mont

"There you go again," as Reagan once said to Jimmy Carter. Trashing the welder. You don't think much of the working class? You sure you're a commie? I mean you say you are, but your words say otherwise.

Don't tell me there isn't one single yahoo in the welder's union who wouldn't rather beef up the police than give some pansy a degree in social work. There is. And he's an idiot. — Vera Mont

Yahoos. So either you're a commie with disdain for the working class, or else communism is now a faddish pastime of the elite. Which is exactly what it is these days, at least in the US.

No, I'm anti representing all working class people as thinking like you. — Vera Mont

I couldn't actually parse that except that I must have done something bad.

I said that Congress should pass a law funding college costs if that's what they want. — fishfry

I think you said quite a lot more than that.

I'm surprised to see you cheering on the transfer of billions of dollars in debt from the elite to the working class. — fishfry

I'm not aware that the elite had been paying for student loans. Citation?
Did we discuss restructuring taxation at all? I have some views on capital gains, shell corporations, off-shore accounts and price-gauging that wouldn't affect most union members.

Trashing the welder. — fishfry

Just that one. He probably beats his wife and votes for T***p, too.

I couldn't actually parse that except that I must have done something bad. — fishfry

I don't think you've done anything at all.

I said that Congress should pass a law funding college costs if that's what they want.
— fishfry
I think you said quite a lot more than that. — Vera Mont

Such as ...?

I'm not aware that the elite had been paying for student loans. Citation? — Vera Mont

Citation? Jeez I don't have to read you the daily newspapers, do I? The college students having their loans "forgiven" aka transferred to the working class that you apparently don't like very much, will out-earn the working class by millions of dollars over their lives.

I am really surprised to see a self-described communist want to burden the working class with the student debt of people who will vastly out-earn them. I wonder if you could address this point.

Did we discuss restructuring taxation at all? I have some views on capital gains, shell corporations, off-shore accounts and price-gauging that wouldn't affect most union members. — Vera Mont

No, I'm trying to keep it simple. Biden's illegal and quite regressive transfer of student debt from students to blue collar workers.

Trashing the welder.
— fishfry
Just that one. He probably beats his wife and votes for T***p, too. — Vera Mont

With commies like you trying to saddle him with billions in debt, it's no surprise. You just explained Trump's popularity. The left's abandonment of the working class has a lot to do with it.

I don't think you've done anything at all. — Vera Mont

LOL. Ok I guess we're done. Nice chatting with you. Hope you'll give some private thought to why you are defending the transfer of debt to the working class, whom the communists are supposed to have an affinity for. But that was 50 years ago, wasn't it. Now the left loves the deep state, loves the intel agencies, loves the wars, and hates the working class.

That's why the welder loves Trump. Because the Democratic party and apparently even the communists stopped caring long ago.

I understand. It's probably best not to comment any further.

I understand. It's probably best not to comment any further. — Ludwig V

Thanks, I hope that didn't come out too ... however it came out. J6 is a sore point on both sides of the issue. If I said anything at all I'd be inviting discussion so I'll just refrain. Anyway some of the discussion about education policy was outside my area of expertise and interest, so I haven't got much else to say here.

I have been known to take my bat home when I think that a discussion has become fruitless, even before it gets bad-tempered.

I am really surprised to see a self-described communist want to burden the working class with the student debt of people who will vastly out-earn them. I wonder if you could address this point. — fishfry

'Vastly' is a big word. By quick look-up, the average welder's pay is $22.55/hr, while the average primary school teacher's is $23.44/hr. The teacher starts working life with a $58,000 student loan; the welder gets certification for $475.

You keep saying it's the working class who will be 'burdened' by educating its children, so that they can still work when all the working-class jobs except home renovation and domestic service are automated out of existence. Why do you think poor people's kids shouldn't have a choice of careers?

President Biden will announce plans that, if finalized as proposed, would cancel up to $20,000 of the amount a borrower’s balance has grown due to unpaid interest on their loans after entering repayment, regardless of their income. Low and middle-income borrowers enrolled in the SAVE plan or any other income-driven repayment (IDR) plan would be eligible for the entire amount their balance has grown since entering repayment to be canceled under the Administration’s plans. This group of borrowers includes single borrowers who earn $120,000 or less and married borrowers who earn $240,000 or less.

As for transferring the tax burden from the elite to the working class - - - ? I guess it depends what newspaper you're reading.

President Biden’s tax cuts cut child poverty in half in 2021 and are saving millions of people an average of about $800 per year in health insurance premiums today. Going forward, in addition to honoring his pledge not to raise taxes on anyone earning less than $400,000 annually, President Biden’s tax plan would cut taxes for middle- and low-income Americans

You keep defending that one deluded man, and don't care how his co-workers struggle to give their children a chance in a fucked-up capitalist society.
I saw a pretty funny sign last night:
"Did anyone think to unplug America and plug it in again?"
The system's been cracking for a long time; all anyone can do, short of smashing it and starting over, is apply patches here and there.