• Fire Ologist
    180
    This doesn't seem to touch my question.AmadeusD

    I thought it did. But if God doesn't blip the radar, I get it.

    Gullibility seems to be involved..AmadeusD

    Always a possibility. Anytime we listen to anyone else's words we are in jeopardy. Especially if it involved a talking bush.
  • Athena
    3k
    The United states likes to think of itself one of the strongest democracies. But it does not rank with Europe, Canada and Australia, as much as with India, Brazil and Indonesia.Banno

    This has nothing to do with the topic of this thread but here is information about the space efforts made by all the nations. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-with-space-programs

    It was the USSR that was the first to enter space. The Sputnik launch changed everything!!! That is one of my most passionate arguments because it is what resulted in the 1958 National Defense Education Act that replaced US liberal education with education for technology. https://www.nasa.gov/history/sputnik/index.html

    Also if you follow my arguments, I credit the Prussians and Hilter's Germany for where the USA is today. Had it not been for the Prussian bureaucratic order and WWII and the USSR developing a nuclear weapon and a satellite that circled earth, the USA would not be the country it is today. Like if you and others want to argue with me about perceived US elitism, I am willing but that should be a different thread. I don't think my arguments are the arguments you expect from a US citizen.
  • AmadeusD
    1.8k
    I thought it did. But if God doesn't blip the radar, I get it.Fire Ologist

    Yeah, i think you've intuited how i'd explain that response.
    The issue is what reason would that person have to invoke God? I can see none.

    Especially if it involved a talking bush.Fire Ologist

    :lol:
  • Fire Ologist
    180
    The issue is what reason would that person have to invoke God? I can see none.AmadeusD

    I will try to make my point again just to see if I can make it. This doesn’t have to be about God until the end of the basic point. We can only come to “God” (or in the case of the Sixth Sense “grandma”) by something fabricated out of thin air. I admit that. But if I make my point, you might see how one might find a reason to give the experience over to a God.

    A person is walking down the street on a bright sunny day and they hear thunder and lightening and the sky fills with grey clouds and a thunderous voice says….

    Ok stop. Some people might say “this is God surely - clouds can’t do that and thunder can’t appear like that and voices can’t be loud like that…. That must be God.” But the rational person would say, there is a such thing voice amplification and modulation, and strange weather, and this may all be scientifically explained.

    But the rest of the story has to include “and a thunderous voice said (for instance) “this is my beloved Son, listen to him.”

    And the person who was stopped in his tracks by this can also consider those words. Forget the voice and the thunder. Instead of wondering how the thunder and booming voice happened, the person might remember just yesterday thinking how he wasn’t sure who to listen to if anyone was worth listening to at all, and though he liked the Son, the Son could be confusing and he was doubtful about how good the Son’s really was, and as he remembers his doubts lightening strikes again…

    And the person realizes no one knew he was doubting anything. No one knew he was looking for someone to listen to. He never told anyone he had any opinion about the Son at all. It was as if the voice knew just what to say, precisely in a way that the person could know something new, maybe even change his life (hopefully for the better).

    So my point was there may be more reason to think a burning bush was an impossible miracle of God, not because the bush burned but wasn’t burned, but because of the words that were communicated. Something, to that person (not you, I don’t know what words might give you pause, because I’m not God), something to that person brought awe and fear and inspiration and power, something overwhelming making one willing to say God, just because of the words spoken.
  • AmadeusD
    1.8k
    I admit that.Fire Ologist

    Ok, Cool.

    but because of the words that were communicatedFire Ologist

    I reject that. Someone's incredulity, or lack of knowledge isn't a reason to come to a rash conclusion. Novel situations don't, in the vast majority of cases, Have people invoking concepts they don't understand. Even less so, 'God'. I note you said this wasn't required. But what else is someone going to invoke? If they don't know what God is, in the Testamentary sense, there shouldn't be any way to invoke it.
    It was as if the voice knew just what to say, precisely in a way that the person could know something new, maybe even change his life (hopefully for the better).Fire Ologist
    This is putting me in mind of some film I've seen wherein there's a character capable of saying to someone exactly what they need to hear, at exactly the right time to change their mind. It's not the Adjustment Bureau - its something where this aspect is part of the plot but I think it might include time travel? Ah, I wish i could remember. It was recent, and smacks of Nolan. *sigh*.
  • Fire Ologist
    180
    wish i could rememberAmadeusD
    See now, what if tomorrow, you are walking down the street and clouds overtake the sky with thunder and a voice says “AmadeusD, the movie was …” and he knew the movie. Still totally reject it? No chance the clouds might be a miracle?

    Sorry I don’t know the movie. Still can’t play God for you.
  • AmadeusD
    1.8k
    I would simply assume your second sentence was a lie ;) It is more likely that this is true, or that I have a mental lapse, or that I am day-dreaming, than is the possibility of God doing those specific things, in response to this thread.
  • Athena
    3k
    So my point was there may be more reason to think a burning bush was an impossible miracle of God, not because the bush burned but wasn’t burned, but because of the words that were communicated. Something, to that person (not you, I don’t know what words might give you pause, because I’m not God), something to that person brought awe and fear and inspiration and power, something overwhelming making one willing to say God, just because of the words spoken.Fire Ologist

    How about this.... You are speaking of a mythology and not about a god. Do you have anything to say of the concept of "god" that is not dependent on the God of Abraham mythology?
  • AmadeusD
    1.8k
    (i think (and it was aimed at me lol)) He's speaking conceptually. You can swap in any specific mythological event and the reasoning he's using still holds. It's necessary to rely on the Abrahamic implications to make sense of it.
    'God' could be anything, including some type of Pagan Gaia-ism. The concept of God isn't that wide, really.

    I still all cop-outs on my view, though. Doesn't really matter what goes there unless it's an empirical description of what actually caused the event.
  • Fire Ologist
    180


    Yes, I’m not speaking about any particular mythology, or even necessarily God. (I did use dead grandma to make the same point.) I’m saying if there was any unexplainable physical event someone experienced (maybe unexplained because they were stupid), but unexplained by all reason they can muster, AND, that fantastical miracle forced into their face came with words and a message, AND those words showed a meaning to that person that was bigger than they knew before - then they might say “no wonder the bush didn’t burn, or the phoenix rose from the ashes. Something even more than all of this happened here. I am now included in this new meaning, by hearing this new message.”

    You don’t have to say more here. The point is made. Amadeus gets it and rejects it.

    I do think I’d need a pretty big, crazy miracle, with some trusted witnesses around maybe to compare notes, before I delved to deeply into the message. But I’m just guessing how I’d be listening to a “sprit” or something.
  • Athena
    3k
    Yes, I’m not speaking about any particular mythology, or even necessarily God. (I did use dead grandma to make the same point.) I’m saying if there was any unexplainable physical event someone experienced (maybe unexplained because they were stupid), but unexplained by all reason they can muster, AND, that fantastical miracle forced into their face came with words and a message, AND those words showed a meaning to that person that was bigger than they knew before - then they might say “no wonder the bush didn’t burn, or the phoenix rose from the ashes. Something even more than all of this happened here. I am now included in this new meaning, by hearing this new message.”

    You don’t have to say more here. The point is made. Amadeus gets it and rejects it.

    I do think I’d need a pretty big, crazy miracle, with some trusted witnesses around maybe to compare notes, before I delved to deeply into the message. But I’m just guessing how I’d be listening to a “sprit” or something.
    Fire Ologist

    This argument might do better in a different thread. What exactly is the experience? Words can be "heard" but they do not "show" meaning.

    Any sense of meaning comes from the thoughts of the person hearing the words. We are observing animals and attempting to explain the meaning of the noises they make. Only after we have ascribed meaning to the sound do we know the meaning of the sound. Otherwise, the meaning is not implicit in the sound.

    If someone believes a burning bush and a loud voice means a god is present, that meaning is based on what that person believes. In other words, you have to believe in gods and that gods do such things, before you can think that is the meaning of the moment.

    Nonbelievers just can not believe such stories. If I had an experience like that, I might look for aliens but not a god.
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