• Ennui Elucidator
    494
    They say that a fish doesn't know it is wet, but until it is yanked from the ocean, how would it ever know?

    There is a famous story in philosophy known as Theseus' Ship. This story, roughly dating to the first century, is used to discuss a problem of identity roughly described as composition - the relation of a thing to its parts and what changes in parts preserves identity. The question posed is, at what point of change decomposition, re-composition, etc. does the thing in front of you (the Ship of Theseus) stop being itself (or become something else)? Similarly, there is a Buddhist text ("Questions of Milinda") that discusses identity, but the text does so by way of discussing a chariot.

    While the questions posed are interesting in their own right, the point of this thread is not to discuss the answer, but whether the framework (story, if you will) in which the question is posed is meaningful to the way in which we do philosophy. When we inherit a tradition, are we doomed to its faults or limited by its ambition? Putting aside the quality of why one might prefer the Buddhist answer to the Western one, how do we evaluate, philosophically, the limits of our own intellectual garden and evaluate whether we wouldn't be better off being replanted somewhere else?

    Maybe Witty would have had less to say if he studied Buddhism.

    https://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebsut045.htm

    . . .

    But King Milinda said to Nagasena: "I have not, Nagasena, spoken a falsehood. For it is in dependence on the pole, the axle, the wheels, the framework, the flag-staff, etc, there takes place this denomination "chariot", this designation, this conceptual term, a current appellation and a mere name."

    "Your Majesty has spoken well about the chariot. It is just so with me. In dependence on the thirty-two parts of the body and the five Skandhas, there takes place this denomination "Nagasena", this designation, this conceptual term, a current appellation and a mere name. In ultimate realtiy, however, this person cannot be apprehended. And this has been said by our sister Vajira when she was face to face with the Lord Buddha:

    "Where all constituent parts are present, the word "a chariot" is applied. So, likewise, where the skandhas are, the term a "being" commonly is used."
    — Random Web Page Translation

    and also

    https://scholarworks.sjsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1125&context=comparativephilosophy

    . . .

    And a bit further down in the same text, Wittgenstein tells us what is wrong with such
    metaphysical questions. Referring to Frege’s discussion of numbers, he writes:

    The question ‘What is a number if it is not a sign?’ arises from a mistaken grammatical
    background; for to this ‘What?’ we imagine a ‘This’, or we expect some ‘This’ in answer.
    Even the tone of this question recalls the tone of Augustine’s question ‘What is time?’ A
    substantive [i.e. a noun] misleads us into looking for a substance.

    . . .

    So, what does Nāgārjuna’s scepticism amount to? Garfield produces the following
    passages (verses 39 and 73) from the Śūnyatāsaptati:

    Since ultimately action is empty,
    If it is understood it is seen to be that way.
    Since action does not exist,
    That which arises from action does not exist either.
    When one understands that this arises from that,
    All of the false views are thereby refuted.
    Hatred, anger and delusion are eliminated,
    And undefiled, one achieves nirvana.24

    . . .

    The quote also reveals a central point of Nāgārjuna’s soteriology. Eternalism and
    nihilism are thought to nourish hatred, anger and delusion, whereas Nāgārjuna’s
    middle way between the extremes is thought to be ethically and soteriologically
    undefiled and therefore leads to the soteriological goal, the extinction of suffering.
    From this we learn that Nāgārjuna’s philosophy, especially his scepticism, is
    soteriologically motivated and that, for him, philosophy is ancillary to religion.
    — WITTGENSTEIN AND BUDDHISM? ON ALLEGED AFFINITIES WITH ZEN AND MADHYAMAKA by FLORIAN DEMONT-BIAGGI
  • mentos987
    160
    Putting aside the quality of why one might prefer the Buddhist answer to the Western one, how do we evaluate, philosophically, the limits of our own intellectual garden and evaluate whether we wouldn't be better off being replanted somewhere else?Ennui Elucidator

    One could look at results. How much has Buddhism achieved? How happy are their followers? If you are unhappy and not achieving anything of use to anyone, why would you even want your own intellectual garden?

    Finland is statistically measured the happiest country on earth for now. One could look at what they do, how they think.
  • Philosophim
    2.2k
    While the questions posed are interesting in their own right, the point of this thread is not to discuss the answer, but whether the framework (story, if you will) in which the question is posed is meaningful to the way in which we do philosophy. When we inherit a tradition, are we doomed to its faults or limited by its ambition? Putting aside the quality of why one might prefer the Buddhist answer to the Western one, how do we evaluate, philosophically, the limits of our own intellectual garden and evaluate whether we wouldn't be better off being replanted somewhere else?Ennui Elucidator

    Perfect. To me, this is one of the essences of philosophy. Question everything. Especially the bases you rest your assumptions on. We should be working to get to the foundation of thoughts and questions, not continuing to discuss incomplete and flawed frameworks laid out to us by people from a different era.
  • Ennui Elucidator
    494
    This presumes all sorts of things, Mentos, not the least of which is that happiness is the point of philosophy. Also, this question is not so much about what "I" should do, but about where a philosophical community chooses to graze. We learn, we talk, we teach - each part essential in carrying on philosophy.

    One might consider the carrot and its will to a new garden. It might want to be in a new garden, but it actually grows just where it was planted. Strange thing is, the carrot may not be able to pick where it grew up, but it might have something to say about where future carrots are planted.
  • mentos987
    160
    This presumes all sorts of things, Mentos, not the least of which is that happiness is the point of philosophyEnnui Elucidator
    I don't know that philosophy has a point at all. And, there are results other than happiness that you can look for. I just used it as an example.

    You asked "how do we evaluate" and looking at results is the easy way to go about doing that. I am not saying it is the only answer, but it certainly is one.
  • Ennui Elucidator
    494

    Fair enough.


    As more food for thought, consider this bit about Heidegger in the IEP's discussion of metaphilosophy and how different it would have looked (and how much less radical it would seem) in light of Nagarjuna's metaphysic of of non-metaphysics rather than the light of the West. (How often do philosophers blame the history of the "world" on the musings of long since dead Europeans?)

    https://iep.utm.edu/con-meta/

    . . .
    What though is wrong with the real being revealed as resource? Enframing is ‘monstrous’ (Heidegger 1994: 321). It is monstrous – Heidegger contends – because it is nihilism. Nihilism is a ‘forgetfulness’ of das Sein (Seinsvergessenheit). Some such forgetfulness is nigh inevitable. We are interested in beings as they present themselves to us. So we overlook the conditions of that presentation, namely, being and Being. But Enframing represents a more thoroughgoing form of forgetfulness. The hegemony of resources makes it very hard (harder than usual – recall above) to conceive that beings could be otherwise, which is to say, to conceive that there is something called ‘Being’ that could yield different regimes of being. In fact, Enframing actively denies being/Being. That is because Enframing, or the metaphysics/science that corresponds to it, proceeds as if humanity were the measure of all things and hence as if being, or that which grants being independently of us (Being), were nothing. Such nihilism sounds bearable. But Heidegger lays much at its door: an impoverishment of culture; a deep kind of homelessness; the devaluation of the highest values (see Young 2002: ch. 2 and passim). He goes so far as to trace ‘the events of world history in this [the twentieth] century’ to Seinsvergessenheit (Heidegger in Wolin 1993: 69)."

    Heidegger’s response to nihilism is ‘thinking’ (Denken). The thinking at issue is a kind of thoughtful questioning. Its object – that which it thinks about – can be the pre-Socratic ideas from which philosophy developed, or philosophy’s history, or Things, or art. Whatever its object, thinking always involves recognition that it is das Sein, albeit in some interplay with humanity, which determines how beings are. Indeed, Heideggerian thinking involves wonder and gratitude in the face of das Sein. Heidegger uses Meister Eckhart’s notion of ‘releasement’ to elaborate upon such thinking. The idea (prefigured, in fact, in Heidegger’s earlier work) is of a non-impositional comportment towards beings which lets beings be what they are. That comportment ‘grant(s) us the possibility of dwelling in the world in a totally different way’. It promises ‘a new ground and a new foundation upon which we can stand and endure in the world of technology without being imperiled by it’ (Heidegger 1966: 55). Heidegger calls the dwelling at issue ‘poetic’ and one way in which he specifies it is via various poets. Moreover, some of Heidegger’s own writing is semi-poetic. A small amount of it actually consists of poems. So it is not entirely surprising to find Heidegger claiming that, ‘All philosophical thinking’ is ‘in itself poetic’ (Heidegger 1991, vol. 2: 73; Heidegger made this claim at a time when he still considered himself a philosopher as against a non-metaphysical, and hence non-philosophical, ‘thinker’). The claim is connected to the centrality that Heidegger gives to language, a centrality that is summed up (a little gnomically) in the statement that language is ‘the house of das Sein’ (Heidegger 1994: 217).

    ....
    — IEP on 'Metaphilosophy' emphasis own
  • mentos987
    160

    This is too heavy for me to bother with. It could be right but it could also be just fluff.
  • Ennui Elucidator
    494
    The important part is the narrative arc, not the parsing of Heidegger. The end of philosophy (problems dissolved when language is given its proper place) the beginning of Buddhism.
  • mentos987
    160

    Sorry, I am not about to try to dissect that. Too much effort when the text is so convoluted.
  • 180 Proof
    14.1k
    Putting aside the quality of why one might prefer the Buddhist answer to the Western one, how do we evaluate, philosophically, the limits of our own intellectual garden and evaluate whether we wouldn't be better off being replanted somewhere else?Ennui Elucidator
    Well, "we evaluate our limits", so to speak, by actually doing philosophy instead of just talking about philosophy given that "answers" are merely how philosophical questions generate new (more probative) philosophical questions.
  • Ennui Elucidator
    494
    In that, no-essence, the thing is in the doing kind of way? Just a question of whether what we are doing is customarily called "philosophy"?
  • 180 Proof
    14.1k
    You're still only talking about philosophy without doing it – at most, IMO, that's gossip, not thinking.
  • mentos987
    160
    You're only talking about philosophy without doing it – at most, IMO, that's gossip, not thinking.180 Proof

    The new thinking was taken over by science, only gossip remains. With the assumption that you are searching for truth. If you want to create beauty then philosophy is still strong.
  • 180 Proof
    14.1k
    What "new thinking" are you talking about?
  • mentos987
    160

    The search for the unknown.

    Perhaps you need to define your philosophy that is not being done.
  • 180 Proof
    14.1k
    Nothing "new" in that ... Socrates teaches "Know Thyself" since self – desires, biases, taken-for-granteds, assumptions, limitations – are habitually "unknown" (i.e. unexamined).
  • mentos987
    160

    If you find new things about something that was until recently unknown then isn’t that new?
  • 180 Proof
    14.1k
    My point is "the search for the unknown", as you said, is not "new" within or without philosophy.
  • mentos987
    160
    "the search for the unknown", as you said, is not "new"180 Proof
    The search isn’t, but the results of the search are.

    "Philosophy (love of wisdom in ancient Greek) is a systematic study of general and fundamental questions concerning topics like existence, reason, knowledge, value, mind, and language."

    Seems to me that new development in these areas mostly happens in fields of sience.
  • mentos987
    160
    Socrates teaches "Know Thyself" since the self – desires, biases, taken-for-granteds, assumptions, limitations – are habitually "unknown" (i.e. unexamined).180 Proof

    I think that anyone now living that comes up with similar wisdom would encounter hard resistance, since these thoughts would be viewed as presumptuous. We tend to grab hold of such thoughts only when the author is safely dead and buried.

    Also, " "Know Thyself" since the self – desires, biases, taken-for-granteds, assumptions, limitations" sounds like it fits in the scientific field of psychology. Maybe similar work is already being done there, I do not know.
  • 180 Proof
    14.1k
    The search isn’t, but the results of the search arementos987
    As I've pointed out already about so-called "results" ...
    ... "answers" are merely how philosophical questions generate new (more probative) philosophical questions.180 Proof
    To my mind science's horizons are explicitly philosophical.

    Which is why I wrote habitually unknown (i.e. unexamined).
  • Ennui Elucidator
    494
    I am not going to disagree with you (as there are all sorts of senses in which you are right), but on a low level, I'm not sure why asking for a method by which we try to evaluate the medium in which we exist and whether it would not be better to exist in a different medium is not an invitation to do philosophy with me. In as much as there is the suggestion that language (i.e. community) sets the rules for what questions are tractable (or not), it seems to be the case that even if different questions don't arise in a new language, perhaps other answers will. It is like trying to solve a math problem in one field using tools of another - sometimes it is a waste of time (impossible, possible but vastly less efficient, etc.) and sometimes it makes a hard problem easy.

    In the end, we have but one life (or one moment) to do as we will, and as far as I can tell, it requires a choice. Making the right choice, knowing what the right choice is, knowing what the choice is, knowing how to make the right choice, and making a choice wisely are not the same thing. Doing philosophy tends to be about making choices wisely, no?
  • 180 Proof
    14.1k
    Doing philosophy tends to be about making choices wisely, no?Ennui Elucidator
    I think philosophy consists in questioning choice and the choices one makes in order to understand how and why one chooses. One tends to learn more from making unwise choices, IME, than from "making choices wisely" – in other words, failure, like loss, is the teacher, and those who do not seek to learn such lessons are foolish (i.e. unwise, or do not 'love wisdom').
  • wonderer1
    1.7k
    I think philosophy consists in questioning choice and the choices one makes in order to understand how and why one chooses. One tends to learn more from making unwise choices, IME, than from "making choices wisely" – in other words, failure, like loss, is the teacher, and those who do not seek to learn such lessons are foolish (i.e. unwise, or do not 'love wisdom').180 Proof

    :up:
  • Lionino
    1.5k
    Finland is statistically measured the happiest country on earth for now. One could look at what they do, how they think.mentos987

    I am always skeptical of these statistics. How are Germans — with all due respect to the great German nation —, with German food, German weather, and German *****, happier than Italians? Maybe they are more satisfied/fulfillied. But happy? I doubt it.
  • mentos987
    160

    It is still a result that can be known.

    I don't see why there would be some agenda to falsify this particular information. Guess we could visit Finland ourselves to verify, but I do not care enough about the topic to do so.
  • Lionino
    1.5k
    I don't see why there would be some agenda to falsify this particular informationmentos987

    I don't think they are falsified. I just think they are misleading. Take Japan for example, a country known for its rough worklife and student life (though not nearly as bad as SK), also a country whose culture does not see full honesty positively. So it may be that when asked "Are you happy?", a Japanese person might say "Yes" for politeness even if they don't mean it. But the suicide rates there are specially high. I think they are high in Finland as well — but that might be the lack of Sun, it really makes a difference.
  • mentos987
    160
    I just think they are misleadingLionino
    They could be. I trust them because I see little reason to present false data in this case and I do not think that researchers are dumb. Also, if it was blatantly incorrect then some other source would likely have provided some counter evidence.
  • Lionino
    1.5k
    and I do not think that researchers are dumbmentos987

    You'd be surprised.

    some other source would likely have provided some counter evidencementos987

    Perhaps in real sciences like chemistry and astronomy. But pure statistics like that based on surveys are just that, numbers based on the choices of a bunch of people. Even in biology you often see papers with false claims that nobody ever corrects, because there is no other researcher interested in doing so.
  • mentos987
    160

    Being the happiest and most well-educated country on earth are big claims. If any other country thought that could lay claim to the same, they would do so.
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