The idea that particles do not have definite pre-existing states prior to measurement is then simply replaced by, or rather, shifted toward the notion that non-commuting variables do not have meaningful joint probability distributions for their long run frequencies that are independent of the particular experimental context. Therefore, even though realism is given up in a way compatible with the requirements of Bell's theorem, particles can still retain their definite properties as individuals in a realist way. — Apustimelogist
Exactly so. Particle-pair by particle-pair. As each is measured, the question is asked, "Was anything wrong with that measurement?" And the answer is always, no, nothing wrong. Yet at some point the inequality is violated. And in this description there is no mention of joint probability distributions or non-commuting observables - and it seems to me that the mention of them, providing no useful information, becomes irrelevant (I'm wearing my ignorance on my sleeve, here).These probability distributions are realized by those many repeated occurrences or experimental runs, each involving a particle with definite properties at any given time. — Apustimelogist
It must be that there is a different "structure" yet to be discovered out of which "falls" as a natural consequence what is actually observed. Which would preserve reality, locality, logic, and the speed-of-light limit and dissolve all the mystery. — tim wood
I'm pretty sure physicists call that structure quantum mechanics, because quantum mechanics explicitly predicted the results we do in fact see. — flannel jesus
Now, I don't think QM works that way. — tim wood
I invite you to think about your own remark and the difficulties of it. What if anything can you imagine that would make math more than, other than, just descriptive and give it causal efficacy?but I think math is the reality, — flannel jesus
Slightly off-topic : If you will think of Mathematical relationships as A> a form of Information, and B> Information as "the power to enform a mind", plus C> Energy as the power to enform matter (as in E=MC^2), then the notion of a Real universe consisting of mathematical (structural) & informational (meaningful) relationships might begin to make sense. Of course, it's a great leap from Atomism & Materialism.but I think math is the reality, — flannel jesus
I invite you to think about your own remark and the difficulties of it. What if anything can you imagine that would make math more than, other than, just descriptive and give it causal efficacy? — tim wood
There appear to be rules that describe how these interactions will go — tim wood
ought to offer a simple explanation of how that can be — tim wood
Sure, but those rules not efficacious, not efficient causes. Let's be very simple. Cars (mostly) run on gas. Well then, gas gas,.., gas. There's all the gas anyone could possibly want. But even all of it won't move a car even a fraction of an inch.Well we have universes where the fundamental rules are defined by computation and mathematics, and those universes are called video games. Similarly, cellular automata universes like Conway's game of life. — flannel jesus
Nothing was ever manipulated by rules, mathematical or otherwise. By the computations of rules - just how exactly does that happen? What I'm driving at that I hope you would notice, is that some action is implicit, but no account for any energy required to make it happen, or matter for it to happen to. Video games by themselves do absolutely nothing.The things you call "matter" are in theory representable by numerical data, and able to be manipulated by computations of mathematical rules — flannel jesus
The problem in a word: "applying." I'll leave off if you indicate you see the problem. That is, if the world is code, or information, or a program, then what "applies" it?It might be because future states derive from applying mathematical laws or computations t — flannel jesus
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