• EnPassant
    667
    I agree with all your points. The genetic stuff is a complete red flag. Why should alien life have 70% genetic similarity to life on earth? Seems implausible.flannel jesus

    Someone once said the humanoid form is universal. I think it was Orfeo Angelucci.
  • flannel jesus
    1.7k
    Fascinating. Though I don't feel hesitant to take what he says with the biggest grain of salt.
  • jgill
    3.7k
    Someone once said the humanoid form is universal. I think it was Orfeo Angelucci.EnPassant

    :roll:
  • EnPassant
    667
    The main requirement would be that the humanoid form is optimal.
  • petrichor
    321


    I think Mick West has done a solid job of explaining the UAP videos. His work doesn't get enough attention. I remember smacking myself in the forehead when I saw him explain that one triangle UFO video as bokeh. Of course that's what it is! And his gimbal analysis of one of the other famous videos is probably right.

    Gimbal Analysis
    Bokeh UFO

    As for eye witnesses, well, people are fallible, even pilots, and humans have a pretty strong tendency to want to believe in something beyond the mundane reality we see every day, myself included. There are incentives to deceive and to self-deceive.

    I'll go with Hume's argument against miracles on this. Think of it in probabilistic terms. What is more likely to be true? That someone is deceived? Or that the object in question is a literal alien spacecraft? We know that people being deceived and deceiving is a very common occurrence. But extraterrestrial intelligent beings visiting earth isn't something we have strong evidence for having ever occurred. You'd be wise to bet in any case that the more typical case is happening.
  • Agree-to-Disagree
    423
    What if the Aliens are following the Prime Directive?

    In the fictional universe of Star Trek, the Prime Directive (also known as "Starfleet General Order 1", and the "non-interference directive") is a guiding principle of Starfleet that prohibits its members from interfering with the natural development of alien civilizations. Its stated aim is to protect unprepared civilizations from the danger of starship crews introducing advanced technology, knowledge, and values before they are ready.

    But the Aliens are not perfect and sometimes they make mistakes.
  • RogueAI
    2.7k
    I'll go with Hume's argument against miracles on this. Think of it in probabilistic terms. What is more likely to be true? That someone is deceived? Or that the object in question is a literal alien spacecraft? We know that people being deceived and deceiving is a very common occurrence. But extraterrestrial intelligent beings visiting earth isn't something we have strong evidence for having ever occurred. You'd be wise to bet in any case that the more typical case is happening.petrichor

    Except extraterrestrials visiting earth wouldn't be a miracle. There's no violation of a law of nature. Why should we prima facie think alien visitation is a low probability event?
  • Count Timothy von Icarus
    2.3k


    Right, it doesn't fit the bill for Hume. What I never understood though is how he could maintain his view on miracles when his thoughts on the problem of induction would seem to lead us to conclude that miracles are impossible to rule out, and can only be argued against by circular appeals to induction.
  • petrichor
    321
    Except extraterrestrials visiting earth wouldn't be a miracle. There's no violation of a law of nature. Why should we prima facie think alien visitation is a low probability event?RogueAI

    Life is rare, intelligent life rarer, technological civilization rarer still, and interstellar travel is really, really hard.

    Consider that even on this planet, where the conditions are so ideal for life, as far as we know, life has only occurred once. There are not multiple trees of life. Everything alive here is related and has a common ancestor. You would think that if life had a strong tendency to occur where conditions favor it, we'd see another line. Who knows though, maybe all the life related to us just outcompeted and outcompetes anything else and obliterates any evidence of it.

    We have yet to see a single bit of strong evidence for any life beyond earth. And we've been looking hard. No truly interesting signals, nothing.

    If alien visitation were not a low probability event, we'd see more clear evidence for its occurrence. Clearly, deceit among people is a common occurrence. Spaceships visiting from other star systems are not known to be even possible.

    Whether or not it fits the definition of a miracle as a supernatural event is beside the point. The point is that it is always more likely that you are dealing with a typical event than that you are dealing with an extraordinary event. You should bet on it being the typical case. If you see a light in the sky, chances are overwhelming that it's not an alien.
  • EnPassant
    667
    Except extraterrestrials visiting earth wouldn't be a miracle. There's no violation of a law of nature. Why should we prima facie think alien visitation is a low probability event?RogueAI

    Hynek suggested they get here via the Astral Plane - what some call extra dimensions or, more traditionally, the spiritual world. Many of the reported sightings suggest they are spirits but many also suggest they are biological beings. Perhaps they are both.
  • petrichor
    321
    The basic probability principle underlying Hume's argument against miracles is just a part of good general epistemological hygiene whether you are dealing claims of supernatural miracles or other unusual circumstances. If you think you've won the lottery, chances are you haven't. Check your ticket again. Check your eyes too. Concluding, based on very little information, that a light you are seeing is an alien craft is like jumping to the conclusion that you have a winning lottery ticket before you've even looked at it. It would be cool if it were so, but chances are, it isn't.
  • wonderer1
    1.8k
    Consider that even on this planet, where the conditions are so ideal for life, as far as we know, life has only occurred once. There are not multiple trees of life. Everything alive here is related and has a common ancestor. You would think that if life had a strong tendency to occur where conditions favor it, we'd see another line.petrichor

    I don't think this reasoning provides strong evidence for how probable abiogenesis is. Any protolife that developed today is apt to be seen as food by existing life forms which have had billions of years to improve their effectiveness as an eating machines. Perhaps abiogenesis occurs on earth every million years on average, but the resulting life form is no competition for existing life forms with an evolutionary head start.

    Edit: Did you recognize this and edit?
  • petrichor
    321


    That might be right! The fact remains that we don't have any evidence for any life other than this line we are a part of. The discovery of a second line somewhere would be big news.
  • petrichor
    321
    Regarding Hume's argument against miracles (and other claims of non-supernatural but ultra-extraordinary things), I am reminded of this scene from Joan of Arc:

    https://youtu.be/9M1-PfFx1hU?si=W4Uq2jSpqdiGrVQc
  • RogueAI
    2.7k
    We have yet to see a single bit of strong evidence for any life beyond earth. And we've been looking hard. No truly interesting signals, nothing.petrichor

    It does seem to be eerily quiet.
  • Sir2u
    3.4k
    If there was any chance aliens had visited Earth, don't you think the other nations would be a little more interested in this?

    Why do you think literally no one outside the US cares about this at all?
    Tzeentch


    Other nations do not have the resources to fund investigations into things like UFOs.
    The USA does so because it thinks that they will get some sort of advantage over the rest of the world from spacer travelers, technological or military.

    What I do not believe is the "fact" that aliens might be aggressive and that we need to be defended from them at any means. If they have gotten here and wanted to take over the world it is doubtful that we could do anything to stop them.

    If they are peaceful, and as they have not yet attacked I think that we can consider them so, why don't they make contact? Would you talk to your new neighbor if he walked around point a shotgun at you?

    Another thing that I think we need to consider is how they got here, not just the method of transport but the reason behind the journey. It takes a long time for signals from earth to reach out to the stars, so they cannot have found out about us until recently unless they were planet hoping and found us by accident.

    If they are here now, we have to question how they got here so fast after receiving the signals or if they have been for a long time what were they doing before we became technologically advanced enough to be any use to them.

    If they came here a long time ago to conquer us, why did they let us develop technology that would make their job harder. If they just arrived recently to conquer, why did they not stop our technological advancement? It would not take much to do so.

    If they came a long time ago in peace, then it might be possible that they have helped with the advancement of the technology we have today.

    So they only reason I can see for them to be here is a peaceful one, sharing knowledge.

    One of the things I always laugh about in the alien invasion movies is the way they portray them as ugly monster that slobber all over everything. How could something like that even develop technology? You see them with claws trying to use the human like controls of their spaceship or weapons.

    I believe that to be able to develop technology the beings must have the physical attributes necessary to be able to create and use tools. That is why ants will probably never develop an Ipad. It might take a while, but there are several other mammals that might one day actually create advanced tools.

    Living environment will also play a part in advancement of any being in the universe. Dolphins are supposed to be very intelligent, but in their environment and with their physical attributes it would be extremely difficult to create tools and material to build anything.
  • jgill
    3.7k
    I believe that to be able to develop technology the beings must have the physical attributes necessary to be able to create and use toolsSir2u

    Like a near fast-as-light spaceship. :roll:
  • Apustimelogist
    435
    Ive always found that the way humans have interacted so far with "aliens" is too bizarre for it to be actual aliens and is more likely just like Peoples minds playing tricks. I mean UFOs have been seen for decades and they seem to be really common. Like people are seeing this stuff all the bloody time.

    Its just like... what kind of super advanced alien civilization would do that. Its like bizarre trolling behavior just basically spamming space craft all over earth for decades on end for no apparent reason. Just doesnt make any sense to me that UFOs are actual intelligent aliens.
  • BC
    13.4k
    What do you guys think of the Mexican aliens?flannel jesus

    Apparently many people are ready to believe in the existence of UFOs which presumably contain aliens, and more. Erich von Däniken wrote a popular book about alleged aliens in 1969 -- Chariots Of the Gods, which makes all sorts of claims about alien activity on earth over millennia. A significant number of people have taken it as FACT. On Halloween, 1939 Orson Welle's radio production of H, G, Well's FICTIONAL story, War of the Worlds freaked out millions of people--despite repeated statements before and during the broadcast that this was a FICTIONAL DRAMA not reality.

    "Jaime Maussan, a ufologist and journalist, told Mexican politicians under oath last week that nearly one third of the mummified objects' DNA was unknown."

    Allegedly there was some human DNA present -- which is highly suggestive of human authorship of the ancient artifacts (if that's what they are). Why should we assume that "DNA" would be present in an alien's body? Did somebody discover that aliens from another star system evolved DNA? Not that I know of. How does Maussan think that human and alien DNA would get mixed up together?

    I didn't read anything about the hard structure of the objects, Bone? Stone? Clay?. Plaster? Previously unseen material?

    IF this had been actual alien tissue, THEN I would expect that the facts of the examination would spark intense scientific inquiry and public discussion. This has not happened. Conspiracists will claim that the alien evidence suppression conspiracy has once again deprived the public of the TRUTH.
  • Agree-to-Disagree
    423
    Its just like... what kind of super advanced alien civilization would do that. Its like bizarre trolling behavior just basically spamming space craft all over earth for decades on end for no apparent reason. Just doesnt make any sense to me that UFOs are actual intelligent aliens.Apustimelogist

    I said in an earlier post,
    What if the Aliens are following the Prime Directive?

    In the fictional universe of Star Trek, the Prime Directive (also known as "Starfleet General Order 1", and the "non-interference directive") is a guiding principle of Starfleet that prohibits its members from interfering with the natural development of alien civilizations. Its stated aim is to protect unprepared civilizations from the danger of starship crews introducing advanced technology, knowledge, and values before they are ready.

    But the Aliens are not perfect and sometimes they make mistakes.
    Agree-to-Disagree

    Maybe the Aliens are becoming bored with watching us and are deliberately making appearances to annoy and upset us. If I was an alien then that is what I would do :grin: . I have often thought that it would be fun to put on a bigfoot costume and hoax people.

    People usually think that Aliens will be wise, serious, and do things for our benefit. What if Aliens have a sense of humor like us?

    What if making appearances is part of a social experiment that they are doing on us?

    The most important question is why these Aliens have travelled billions of kilometers in order to abduct people and "probe" them. Abduction and probing is reported frequently. There must be an explanation for this. Does anybody have any ideas?
  • Apustimelogist
    435
    If it was them having fun surely they would be bored of it by now. The persistence of this phenomenon us what you would expect if it was just our minds playing tricks imo. Similar with ghosts.

    Thinking about that Im curious whether more people believe in ghosts or aliens.
  • Agree-to-Disagree
    423
    Thinking about that Im curious whether more people believe in ghosts or aliens.Apustimelogist

    Many people seem to have a "need" for the paranormal.

    ESP (extrasensory perception like telepathy), spiritualism, ghosts, cryptozoology, UFO's, telekinesis, poltergeists, life after death, reincarnation, faith healing, human auras, clairvoyance, prophecy, astrology, witches, etc.

    There are probably many reasons for this "need". Here some quotes from Wikipedia:

    - The number of people worldwide who believe in parapsychological powers has been estimated to be 3 to 4 billion.

    - A survey conducted in 2006 by researchers from Australia's Monash University[86] sought to determine the types of phenomena that people claim to have experienced and the effects these experiences have had on their lives. The study was conducted as an online survey with over 2,000 respondents from around the world participating. The results revealed that around 70% of the respondents believe to have had an unexplained paranormal event that changed their life, mostly in a positive way. About 70% also claimed to have seen, heard, or been touched by an animal or person that they knew was not there; 80% have reported having a premonition, and almost 50% stated they recalled a previous life.

    Wikipedia shows a number of "Belief Polls" which report on the belief/unsure/disbelief percent for a number of different beliefs.

    - A survey by Jeffrey S. Levin, associate professor at Eastern Virginia Medical School, found that more than two thirds of the United States population reported having at least one mystical experience.

    A 1996 Gallup poll estimated that 71% of the people in the U.S. believed that the government was covering up information about UFOs. A 2002 Roper poll conducted for the Sci Fi channel reported that 56% thought UFOs were real craft and 48% that aliens had visited the Earth.

    A 2001 National Science Foundation survey found that 9% of people polled thought astrology was very scientific, and 31% thought it was somewhat scientific. About 32% of Americans surveyed stated that some numbers were lucky, while 46% of Europeans agreed with that claim. About 60% of all people polled believed in some form of Extra-sensory perception and 30% thought that "some of the unidentified flying objects that have been reported are really space vehicles from other civilizations."

    In 2017 the Chapman University Survey of American Fears asked about seven paranormal beliefs and found that "the most common belief is that ancient advanced civilizations such as Atlantis once existed (55%). Next was that places can be haunted by spirits (52%), aliens have visited Earth in our ancient past (35%), aliens have come to Earth in modern times (26%), some people can move objects with their minds (25%), fortune tellers and psychics can survey the future (19%), and Bigfoot is a real creature. Only one-fourth of respondents didn't hold at least one of these beliefs."
  • Sir2u
    3.4k
    Like a near fast-as-light spaceship. :roll:jgill

    I meant any technology. :shade: :roll:
  • Sir2u
    3.4k
    I have often thought that it would be fun to put on a bigfoot costume and hoax people.Agree-to-Disagree

    Be a bigfoot for a day, just like with the UFOs, someone would probably try to shoot you.

    Abduction and probing is reported frequently. There must be an explanation for this. Does anybody have any ideas?Agree-to-Disagree

    Maybe the want to get to know the difference between the different human races that many bigots keep saying exist, them being the best type obviously.
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