• Amity
    5.2k
    Following up on the story of Socrates, the granting of Athenian citizenship, the laws:

    In Socrates’s eighteenth year, Sophroniscus presented him to the deme in a ceremony called dokimasia. He was there examined and entered onto the citizens’ roll, making him eligible—subject to age or class restrictions—for the many tasks of government determined by lot or required of all citizens, beginning with two years of compulsory training in the Athenian militia. In an important sense, the dokimasia marked a young man’s allegiance to the laws of Athens.Socrates - SEP
  • Amity
    5.2k
    I read Socrates taking up music during his confinement as one way to keep alive when deprived of his preferred 'medium.'Paine

    Interesting. I didn't know of this 'music-playing' Socrates.
    According to a quick search:

    Socrates, as portrayed by Nietzsche, is a figure who is very different to Dionysus. During most of his life Socrates was the personification of a theoretical man (Nietzsche, 1967-1977, Vol. 1 p 98). He practiced neither music, nor poetry, nor did he have a high opinion of either. Only when he was in his death cell did he start to discover his musical side. Nietzsche attributes great importance to this observation (Nietzsche, 1967-1977, Vol. 1 p 92-96). From this brief description alone we can see that Nietzsche’s Socrates is very much influenced by Plato’s, for it was in Plato’s Phaedo that this story of Socrates was told Plato (Phaedo 60c-61d). However, it will soon be clear that Nietzsche’s Socrates is far from identical with Plato’s. Still it is much closer to Plato’s than it is to Xenophon’s or Aristophane’s Socrates who are the other major literary versions of Socrates.
    [...]
    Since Socrates never appreciated tragedy, i.e. music and poetry, during most of his life, and as he only went to the theatre when the plays of the logical poet Euripides were performed, it was strange that in his death cell Socrates suddenly devoted himself to music and poetry.

    According to Nietzsche, then an important part of Socrates character, which he normally oppressed, was set free (Nietzsche, 1967-1977, Vol. 1 p 92-96).
    Socrates - Minerva

    I don't understand why it's thought that Socrates 'oppressed' this kind of mystical communication.
    It doesn't fit in with how I imagined him to be...appreciative of all the senses. A higher awareness.
    Listening to his daemonion. And so on. Wasn't music played in the Symposium?
    Ah - do I remember the lyre players being dismissed? All the better to think?
  • Fooloso4
    6.2k
    Interesting. I didn't know of this 'music-playing' Socrates.Amity

    A few quick comments:

    Socrates says he has had this dream before and had always understood it to mean doing what he is always doing:

    since philosophy is the greatest music.” (61a)

    Now he thinks the dream meant:

    make music in the popular sense of the word.

    So he:

    took whatever stories were to hand, the fables of Aesop which I know, and turned the first ones I came upon into verse.

    Taking whatever stories that were at hand suggests that the content of music in the popular sense did not much matter.

    The Greek term νόμος, from which we get the term 'norm', means custom, law, and also song (νόμος).

    Socrates sings the song of the law.
    Fooloso4

    A song that he composes for Crito, but he does not write it down. It is not the equivalent of the written law. Perhaps there is a connection between Socrates taking Aesop, something already written and turning it into verse, and taking the law of Athens and turning it into music in the popular sense. In other words, a song for the many.

    In the Phaedo, in response to his friend's fear of death Socrates says:

    What you should do is to sing him incantations each day until you sing [charm] away his fears.
    (77e)

    Socrates' own music consists of arguments, but that will not do for the many who need to be charmed.
  • Paine
    2.5k

    Thank you for your kind words. As you typically open up many more paths than I can follow, our "relative" wisdom will have to be placed side by side in the way described in Symposium:

    Then Agathon, who was reclining alone on the last couch, said, “Come here, Socrates, and recline beside me so that, through contact with you, I may enjoy 175D that piece of wisdom that came to you in the porch. Of course you found it and you have it, for you would not have come away without it.”

    Socrates then sat down and said, “It would be nice, Agathon, if wisdom were the sort of thing that flowed between us, from the fuller to the emptier once we were in contact with one another, just as water in cups flows through wool from the fuller to the emptier one. Yes, if wisdom 175E is like this too, then I greatly prize my position alongside you, for I believe I will be filled with a copious beautiful wisdom by your side. For my wisdom would be ordinary, even as questionable as a dream, while yours would be resplendent and would hold great promise, young as you are; and this shone forth mightily from you, just the other day, and was put on display before the eyes of more than thirty thousand Greeks.”

    “Socrates, you are being contemptuous!” said Agathon. “Yet in due course, you and I shall submit these matters to judgement on the issue of wisdom, resorting to Dionysus[10] as our judge. For the moment, you should turn your attention to your supper.”
    Symposium, 175c, translated by Horan

    I think Fooloso4's approach is a fruitful and rigorous way to compare texts in order to understand:
    Socrates' own music consists of arguments, but that will not do for the many who need to be charmed.Fooloso4

    Without addressing the question of how much Socrates enjoyed the arts of the "many" (or the arguments in the Sorgner essay), I will observe Socrates is a character in Plato's plays. They are obviously more than plays, consisting of fixed characters being expressed through actors on a stage. Nonetheless, they are also artistic compositions. I have long found it interesting that Aristotle referred to Socrates as a 'moralist', suggesting that all the philosophy that can be found in the character is of Plato's making. That statement itself could be an urban myth shared amongst metics.

    Continuing my suspension of how those dynamics relate to the arguments concerning the highest arts, I would like to make some observations about Socrates as a participant in audiences.

    I start with the above passage from Symposium given above. I can only presume that Socrates was one amongst the "thirty thousand Greeks" who attended.

    In the Index to my old collection of the Dialogues, there are over a hundred references to Homer, thirteen to Aeschylus, fourteen to Pindar, forty-seven to Hesiod, four to Sophocles, and I am sure I have left out others. There are the countless rituals and festivals Socrates takes part in. And there is the beginning of the Republic where Socrates makes an aesthetic judgement upon the procession he came to witness. The guy was no shut in nor likely to plug his ears when nearing the Sirens.

    This is a long way to say that Socrates is sometimes found playing a role that does not reflect his understanding and other times puts that into the mouths of other people. So he speaks in the voice of the Law to satisfy Crito when he just can't get it. (I agree with you that there is comic element at that moment). The wisdom Socrates reports receiving from Diotima sure sounds an awful lot like the arguments Socrates makes on his own account.

    I will mull over your other comments.
  • Fooloso4
    6.2k
    I will observe Socrates is a character in Plato's plays.Paine

    The first thing that comes to mind in making that comparison is that unlike the works of the playwrights the dialogues do not contain a chorus.
  • Paine
    2.5k

    Good observation!

    No hoi polloi. By that measure, the audience has less representation in the scenes.
  • Amity
    5.2k
    Socrates says he has had this dream before and had always understood it to mean doing what he is always doing:
    since philosophy is the greatest music.” (61a)

    Now he thinks the dream meant:
    make music in the popular sense of the word.

    So he:
    took whatever stories were to hand, the fables of Aesop which I know, and turned the first ones I came upon into verse.

    Taking whatever stories that were at hand suggests that the content of music in the popular sense did not much matter.
    Fooloso4

    Interesting that at the start and end of Crito, Plato invokes a sense of mystery; soul and mysticism.
    Socrates takes his dream world as clear evidence. This adds to his dramatic character, someone with special, perhaps divine, knowledge. More than a logical, rational thinker.
    Also, he suggests that Crito's watching and not wakening him is a serendipitous stimulus for his noble, beautiful prophetic woman. Ah, Fortuna! as a Roman might say. Fate.

    Soc: Well, Crito, may it be for the best. If this pleases the gods, so be it. However, I do not think it will be here today.
    Crito: 44A What is your evidence for that?
    Soc: I’ll tell you. Presumably I am to die the day after the ship arrives.
    Crito: That is what the authorities say, in any case.

    Soc: Well, I do not think it will be here today, but tomorrow. My evidence is a dream I had a little earlier, during the night, perhaps when you decided not to wake me.
    Crito: What was the dream?

    Soc: I thought that a noble and beautiful 44B woman wearing a white robe approached me, called out and said: Socrates, on the third day thou shalt reach fertile Phthia.[3]

    Crito: What a strange dream, Socrates.
    Soc: Well now, Crito, it seems clear enough to me anyway
    Horan's Crito

    ***
    It seems Socrates is visited by a creative spirit or muse when he turns fables into verse. Also, there is a hymn to Apollo. Other people, including a poet. are talking about and wondering as to its meaning.

    Then Cebes took this up and said, “By Zeus, it is just as well you jogged my memory, Socrates. A number of people have been asking me about your compositions, 60D the setting of Aesop’s fables to verse and the hymn to Apollo.Horan's translation - Phaedo

    Might this be the brain's reaction to forthcoming death? Sing now, or forever hold your peace. He is superstitious and needs to heed the call of his dreams. Socrates/Plato gives us musicality in poetry, music and philosophy.

    Remember I mused earlier about the quickening, breathless pace of the final argument as a kind of stream of consciousness? Now I'm thinking of a jazzy vocal improv! The bookends of Crito as a reprise.
    The repetitions are a rhythmic beat; a popular song that Crito might understand.
  • Amity
    5.2k
    Thank you so much for this. Together we will take time to mull over the music!
    The characters dance before us as they sing...
    Or something like that!
  • Amity
    5.2k
    The first thing that comes to mind in making that comparison is that unlike the works of the playwrights the dialogues do not contain a chorus.Fooloso4

    Are you sure about that?
    What about the repeated refrains of the laws...
  • Amity
    5.2k
    In the Index to my old collection of the Dialogues, there are over a hundred references to Homer, thirteen to Aeschylus, fourteen to Pindar, forty-seven to Hesiod, four to Sophocles, and I am sure I have left out others. There are the countless rituals and festivals Socrates takes part in. And there is the beginning of the Republic where Socrates makes an aesthetic judgement upon the procession he came to witness. The guy was no shut in nor likely to plug his ears when nearing the Sirens.Paine

    A quick response.
    Impressive.
  • Fooloso4
    6.2k
    Are you sure about that?Amity

    No. I plead ignorance. Perhaps you can persuade me.

    I see that they are alike in so far as many voices sing as one, but my impression is that the chorus stands apart and is not a participant that speaks to the characters.
  • Amity
    5.2k
    No. I plead ignorance. Perhaps you can persuade me.Fooloso4

    Oh, hell, you're not doing a Socrates on me, are you?!
    What have I to persuade you of? I need to backtrack and underline the relevant:

    Socrates' own music consists of arguments, but that will not do for the many who need to be charmed.
    — Fooloso4

    Without addressing the question of how much Socrates enjoyed the arts of the "many" (or the arguments in the Sorgner essay), I will observe Socrates is a character in Plato's plays. They are obviously more than plays, consisting of fixed characters being expressed through actors on a stage. Nonetheless, they are also artistic compositions.
    Paine

    I will observe Socrates is a character in Plato's plays.
    — Paine
    The first thing that comes to mind in making that comparison is that unlike the works of the playwrights the dialogues do not contain a chorus.
    Fooloso4
    Are you sure about that?
    What about the repeated refrains of the laws...
    Amity
    I see that they are alike in so far as many voices sing as one, but my impression is that the chorus stands apart and is not a participant that speaks to the characters.Fooloso4

    The dialogues are not just like plays, they are plays with arguments, arguably Socrates' music.
    Where might any 'chorus' be found? First, its usual setting:
    Follow the links and all will be revealed:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_chorus
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wasps

    We can see that the chorus can help both the spectator/audience and the other characters with insight. Crito is the one to be persuaded but Socrates too, in a sense.
    The members sang, danced, narrated and acted in unison; organised and in harmony.
    And yet, in reality - who makes up the laws? Are there not conflicts of interest and tension?
    Open and vulnerable to interpretation and corruption. T

    So, this Chorus is like the Voice of the Laws in Crito. Even if spoken by Socrates, it is another participating character or actor. With strong, rhythm, repetitions - part of the song displaying persistent themes.

    Aristotle stated in his Poetics:
    The chorus too must be regarded as one of the actors. It must be part of the whole and share in the action, not as in Euripides but as in Sophocles.
    In Aeschylus' The Eumenides, however, the chorus takes the part of a host of avenging Furies.

    The chorus had to work in unison to help explain the play as there were only one to three actors on stage who were already playing several parts each.

    Aristophanes uses the chorus of the elderly for varying reasons within his comedies. For example, the chorus of the elderly within The Wasps plays both a comedic role and also serves as a political counterfoil to the young, cosmopolitans of Athens.
    Greek chorus - wiki

    As in his other early plays, Aristophanes satirizes the Athenian general and demagogue Cleon. He also ridicules the law courts, one of the institutions that provided Cleon his powerThe Wasps - wiki

    Given the the addiction of old jurors, the fun trial and the chorus, the Wasps sounds fascinating.
    My next read...
  • Fooloso4
    6.2k
    Oh, hell, you're not doing a Socrates on me, are you?!Amity

    No. I thought the chorus did not speak directly to the actors.

    There is another difference. The laws are not a separate character or entity, but Socrates speaking on behalf of the laws.
  • Amity
    5.2k
    I thought the chorus did not speak directly to the actors.

    There is another difference. The laws are not a separate character or entity, but Socrates speaking on behalf of the laws.
    Fooloso4

    That just goes to show the sheer creative brilliance and imagination of Plato.
    How clever was he. Russian doll ventriloquism.
  • Fooloso4
    6.2k


    The chorus is an independent voice. Part of the ventriloquist's joke is that the dummy has an independent voice.

    It is an interesting question to what extent the voice of the law in the Crito differ from that of the law itself.
  • Amity
    5.2k
    It is an interesting question to what extent the voice of the law in the Crito differ from that of the law itself.Fooloso4

    Yes. I think the first difference is clear.
    The verbal expression by Socrates/Plato v the written laws of the constitution.
    Whoever wrote it and when:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Athenians
    Another article:
    The laws (θεσμοί – thesmoi) that [Draco] laid were the first written constitution of Athens. So that no one would be unaware of them, they were posted on wooden tablets (ἄξονες – axones), where they were preserved for almost two centuries on steles of the shape of four-sided pyramids (κύρβεις – kyrbeis).[8] The tablets were called axones, perhaps because they could be pivoted along the pyramid's axis to read any side.[9][10]
    The constitution featured several major innovations:

    Instead of oral laws known to a special class, arbitrarily applied and interpreted, all laws were written, thus being made known to all literate citizens (who could appeal to the Areopagus for injustices): "the constitution formed under Draco, when the first code of laws was drawn up". (Aristotle: Athenian Constitution, Part 5, Section 41)
    The laws distinguish between murder and involuntary homicide, a novel concept at that time.[11]
    Draco - wiki

    The dialogic drama lies in 1. 'the act of singing a song'; the characters are 2. 'a group of singers'. Both synonyms for 'chorus' as per wordhippo thesaurus.
    From the mind of Plato > Socrates, Crito, the laws speaking via Socrates' mind.
    The importance of internal and external communication to clarify or confuse. Or both in a cacophony.

    The chorus is a 'refrain' of the song - the much-repeated comments and themes.
    Justice, harm and retribution. Morality of the contract. The main theme of obedience to law.

    Interesting to read of the final overwhelming music mix in Socrates' mind, even as he is calm.

    These are the words I seem to be hearing, just as the frenzied dancers seem to be hearing the pipes, and the very sound of these words is reverberating within me, and makes me incapable of hearing anything else.Horan's translation

    A striking mixture - even as he concludes:

    "Well then, Crito, let it be, and let’s act accordingly, since this is the way god leads us."

    He does not agree with all aspects of the laws. More can be said on this.
    Socrates' raison d'être is in keeping philosophy alive. It lives on after his body dies.
    The laws can and will be changed.
  • Paine
    2.5k
    The chorus too must be regarded as one of the actors. It must be part of the whole and share in the action, not as in Euripides but as in Sophocles.Greek chorus - wiki

    This prompted me to check Oedipus the King (by Sophocles) and Aristotle gets this right. Oedipus acknowledges hearing the Chorus and converses with their Leader. This situation becomes pivotal to the drama because Oedipus insists that Tiresias speak in front of the assembly rather than take the option to hear from Tiresias privately.

    Whoopsie.
  • Amity
    5.2k
    The chorus is a 'refrain' of the song - the much-repeated comments and themes.
    Justice, harm and retribution. Morality of the contract. The main theme of obedience to law.
    Amity

    To review previous posts and return to the question of when is it right to break the law:
    [emphases added]

    But does the law overstate its case?
    — Fooloso4
    I'm not really interested in sorting out who's right or wrong here. It's just opposing views orbiting the idea of normativity.
    frank

    You swerved the question. Almost as if you had no interest in the main theme of Crito. Or the imagination to consider what arguments/opposing views matter more.
    It's not 'just' about orbiting views. The question continues to have relevance.
    We would do well to consider it.

    I admire Thomas Paine, as my forum handle suggests. His arguments for democracy are in tune with the problem of absolute power as described in Statesman.I wonder if our present condition is one where we cannot distinguish the regimes so clearly. Maybe the tyrannical, the oligarchs, and the dynamic of unfortunate public opinion coexist simultaneously.Paine

    Perhaps our 'present condition' (national/global politics?) is due not only to increased power and riches in a few hands but lack of knowledge, education and more than a little complacency. Sometimes we only know 'what is going on' far too late. Laws are passed without due and careful process. We only know what 'public opinion' is by being told of it via the media and polls. Politicians on all sides manipulate and deepen the divides between 'the people' as they see fit.

    Contrary to the way Socrates frames it, the city in question is not just "any city". It is one whose laws are said to be enacted justly. The problem, however, is not simply justice but the force needed to prevent the law from being overthrown. Although Socrates talks as if it is a matter of persuasion, of convincing the city, that too would be a:

    subversion of the law wherebyjudgements, once delivered, stand supreme.
    Philosophy poses a threat to the city. Socrates is silenced by force. The law proclaims that he does not stand on an equal footing with the law. To convince them would require doing the very thing they want to prevent him from doing, that is, philosophizing.
    Fooloso4

    Yes and yet the laws proclaim that they encourage and tolerate 'persuasion' from about 51b-52b:
    Anyone who disobeys commits a 3-fold injustice: he disobeys us, we who nurtured him; and having agreed to obey us, he neither obeys us, nor persuades us otherwise if we are not acting aright, even though we lay 52A the options before him and do not issue rough commands to do what we tell him. No, we offer two alternatives: either do as we say, or persuade us otherwise. But he does neither of these.' — Horan

    It is the opinion of the men of Athens that Socrates is doing harm to the young people. His disobedience suggests that he thinks that whatever harm and injustice to the city and its laws his disobedience may cause, the suppression of philosophy is a greater harm.Fooloso4

    It is men fearing a loss of power, position and riches who have manipulated opinion in certain quarters.
    I wonder how Socrates would react in today's political environment. For example:

    This article about the climate crisis and Chris Packham's 'extraordinary, anguished think piece – opens with an audio montage of Packham’s desperate thoughts about the climate crisis, arranged so they chaotically overlap'. Is it time to break the law?

    The problem is crystallised by a chat with John Gummer, Lord Deben. He chaired the government’s Climate Change Committee and co-authored a report that slammed Britain’s green initiatives as dangerously inadequate: “We should be on a war footing,” he tells Packham, noting that a 1C rise in global temperatures is already causing mayhem, and we are headed for 2C or 3C. But when asked about radical protests, Gummer bristles, warning against “counter-productive” action and insisting, “We have to have the rule of law.”Is it time to break the law? - The Guardian

    "We should be on a war footing" v "We have to have the rule of law"
    Radical protests being 'counter-productive'.
    So, being on a 'war footing' is fine - that is the preferred language.
    Who is the enemy here?

    When laws ban the right to protest and more besides, are 'they' asking for trouble?
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