• Art48
    459
    The question is sincere. I have thoughts that say prayer is egotistical, and a feeling that maybe it is not, that maybe I’m missing something.

    In Ambrose Bierce’s “The Unabridged Devil’s Dictionary,” we have: “Pray, v. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner, confessedly unworthy.”

    Ouch. I don’t mean to be as down on prayer as Bierce, but I do have some trouble with the phrase, “I’ll pray for you.” For instance, suppose I’m scheduled for some medical operation and someone says “I’ll pray that you get well quickly.” Nice. But prayer is asking God for something. Do they mean to say that God had decided I would recover slowly but, because THEY are asking, God will speed up my recovery? Do they think they are that important? Isn’t that egotism?

    That’s the thoughts I have when I analyze prayer. But many people mean well and get a nice, warm feeling when they say “I’ll pray for you” and never think too deeply about the phrase’s implications. So, why dump on their parade? It doesn’t do any harm and it makes them feel good. Live and let live.

    So, there you have it. The pros and the cons, the yin and the yang, of my thoughts about prayer.
  • T Clark
    13k
    The pros and the cons, the yin and the yang, of my thoughts about prayer.Art48

    I think the people who sincerely say "I'll pray for you" believe that God hears their prayers and might intercede. I'm not a theist, so I wouldn't say that, but I could say something like "My thoughts will be with you." Both phrases, beyond any possible religious meanings, also convey compassion and fellow-feeling. I don't see any particular reason to question or analyze that. People who say things like that might also mow your lawn, feed your cats, and bring in your mail while you're in the hospital.

    As for asking God for $100 to put on a horse in the fifth race at Pimlico... there's a whole branch of Christianity that works at that - prosperity gospel. Kind of creepy. If I were God I'd send them all to purgatory for a few weeks. But as far as I can tell, I'm not.

    I bet a lot of believers also pray for the strength and courage to do what's necessary and difficult. That seems like a pretty reasonable thing to ask God for help with.
  • 180 Proof
    14.1k
    In Ambrose Bierce’s “The Unabridged Devil’s Dictionary,” we have: “Pray, v. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner, confessedly unworthy.”Art48
    :fire: :pray:

    Here's more on the learned placebo-narcissism of prayer from a fellow Bronx street sage (wiseass) ...
    So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite.
    I've often thought people treat God rather rudely, don't you? Asking trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It's not nice. And it's no way to treat a friend.

    But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know, your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for defecating in a mall. But most of all, you'd really like to fuck that hot little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you'd have to. And I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan?

    Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice.
    And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and fuck up Your Plan?

    And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the fuck bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It's all very confusing.

    So to get around a lot of this, I decided to worship the sun. But, as I said, I don't pray to the sun.
    — George Carlin
  • Banno
    23.4k
    Prayer is incoherent. Like most of Christianity.

    The most it can be is an expression of hope.
  • Art48
    459
    T Clark, I agree they are trying to convey compassion and fellow-feeling, but there are many ways to convey that. I don’t see anything wrong with analyzing the particular way they select.

    180 Proof, Carlin was a better theologian than some professional theologians.

    Banno, “Prayer is incoherent. Like most of Christianity.”
    Amen. Here’s a new book I’m reading that makes the same point.
    “The Anti-Christian Book: Truth is Anti-Christian. The Bible tells Enormous Lies about God.”
  • 180 Proof
    14.1k
    180 Proof, Carlin was a better theologian than some professional theologians.Art48
    :up:
  • RogueAI
    2.5k
    Sending people positive mental energy (praying for them) is never a bad thing. It's pretty egotistical to think you can bend God to your will, but it's also an unselfish act. Praying for oneself, however...that's kind of selfish. What the prayerful person should do is use the mental energy praying to introspect and lead a better life, and maybe good things will happen.
  • RogueAI
    2.5k
    As for asking God for $100 to put on a horse in the fifth race at Pimlico... there's a whole branch of Christianity that works at that - prosperity gospel.T Clark

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/01/09/trump-prosperity-gospel-same-lie-neither-christians-grace-column/2835189001/

    It figures that if Trump were aligned with any faith, it would be prosperity gospel.
  • unenlightened
    8.8k
    Prayer is a sacrament for you, not for me. Obviously my will is always done on Earth as it is in Heaven. And I already know what you want and the answer is going to be "No." except when you happen to want what I will. But you like to assuage your feelings of helplessness and even pretend to get your Mother Mary to ask me for for you. But really, all you need to say is 'sorry', and 'thank you' and even that is for your own comfort, not for my benefit. The Creator needs nothing from his creation. — God
  • schopenhauer1
    10k
    The question is sincere. I have thoughts that say prayer is egotistical, and a feeling that maybe it is not, that maybe I’m missing something.Art48

    So my hypothesis would be that in the Israelite prayer system was akin to other gods. That is to say, it was transactional. You honor the deity, the deity will show its favor in enhancing life through good crops, prosperity, and preventing disaster.

    With interaction with more complicated systems like Platonism, Judaic prayer took on more of a "connection" aspect. Prayer was necessary to bring the "End Times" and the "Messianic Age", but it was also there to acknowledge and connect with the deity by praising him, etc. As the initial tribal religion became hermeneutical, these kind of "connection with god" ideas came to the fore.

    Prayer for someone or for something to happen probably goes back to the transactional aspect. However, I would imagine it was more communal (sacrifices at a Temple) but over time, in Westernized conceptions (and I'd imagine especially Protestant), it became much more about personal prayers about this or that rather than a set of prayers one says that is proscribed.
  • 180 Proof
    14.1k
    :up:

    Prayer is a sacrament for you, not for me. Obviously my will is always done on Earth as it is in Heaven. And I already know what you want and the answer is going to be "No." except when you happen to want what I will. But you like to assuage your feelings of helplessness and even pretend to get your Mother Mary to ask me for for you. But really, all you need to say is 'sorry', and 'thank you' and even that is for your own comfort, not for my benefit. The Creator needs nothing from his creation.
    — God
    unenlightened

    :fire: :smirk:
  • Sam26
    2.5k
    There are all kinds of motives or reasons why people pray, some good, some not. I wonder about the efficacy of prayer. People pray, for e.g., for safety while traveling, and if they arrive safely, then they believe their prayer was answered. What's bizarre is that any answer can fit within their beliefs about prayer. Even if they don't get a desired outcome, it's still an answer. It's like the self-sealing argument, any outcome can fit within their belief. There is no counter-evidence. The truth is there is no way to know if a particular outcome is from God, it could simply be chance or even deterministic.
  • Art48
    459
    There is no counter-evidence. The truth is there is no way to know if a particular outcome is from God, it could simply be chance or even deterministic.Sam26
    I agree. If someone believes God always answers prayers but that sometimes the answer is "No" then there is no way to tell if prayer works or not.
  • Sam26
    2.5k
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not against prayer, I just don't know what to make of it.
  • BC
    13.2k
    A cynical atheist said, "Nothing fails like prayer." Ambrose Bierce's definition of prayer is similar in tone.

    The act of prayer ought to be a humbling, rather than an ego-boosting, experience. God knows all about us, after all. Our files are complete and open to him for review. Who are we to have so many demands?

    That, at least, is one teaching about prayer.
  • flannel jesus
    1.4k
    while I can appreciate that there are Christians who treat it this way, maybe even most Christians, it does make one wonder why prayer is practiced the way it is. Why do so many people pray to tell god about the things they want and need? I feel like this practice can leave people confused, divorcing them from the humbling part and giving them the idea that God acts as a genie for the deserving.

    Some prayer structures don't have this problem.
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.