• 180 Proof
    10.9k
    I hesitate to call it a computer since i don't want to give the impression of an ultimate programmer with complex intentions.punos
    :up: Yeah, the universe-as-"computer" notion is like interpreting evolution as caused or directed by an "Evolver". Re: vestigial anthropomorphic bias (à la animism).
  • punos
    321
    Yeah, the universe-as-computer notion is like interpreting evolution as caused or directed by an "Evolver"180 Proof

    Correct. It is not to say that our universe could not be a simulation with a complex programmer behind it, because even if that were true the programmer and his universe must be explained in the same way regardless. The true universe behind any simulation could still resemble how a simulation works computationally, but the factor by which it forms must not exceed some minimal level of complexity. So no complex gods or entities with high level intentions, motivations, and advanced knowledge at the Alpha point. It's more reasonable to put such entities at or close to an Omega point universal singularity.

    Does this sound reasonable to you?
  • 180 Proof
    10.9k
    Well my barber's name is Occam... A Matryoshka doll universe-simulation seems to me as silly as "geocentric epicycles" and "turtles all the way down". I've no problem with the universe conceived of as a simulation, just the universal "simulator" / "programmer" add-on.
  • punos
    321

    You don't think it's possible for an advanced civilization that evolved naturally to create a simulation in an actual real world computer that produces artificial intelligent life that then goes on to create their own simulation inside their own simulated computer?
  • 180 Proof
    10.9k
    Sure; but only the "naturally evolved" universe is fundamental, or real. The "simulations" are merely virtual.
  • Jack Cummins
    4.6k


    What you are saying about the two aspects of the sickle cell/malaria trait is true of most parts of life, with all flaws in nature having an up and a downside. For example, it was through the exploration of diseases that so much was known about the body and science. This applies to all aspects of culture too. The grave horror and sufferings of the first and second war were a starting point for the revolutionary movements of the 1960s, including so much social change.

    It goes back to the yin and the yang, formerly known as the problem of good and evil. It is encouraging really because it shows that suffering caused by 'mistakes' may be potential for positive innovation and creativity.

    I am writing this from a rather difficult situation, probably due to many mistakes of myself and others. I am in the process of moving from the accommodation where I am now as it is being repossessed. At the moment, I have half my things in the old place and half in the new, hoping to get out of here properly by Friday. Yesterday, at the old place where I am there was a big crash and the kitchen ceiling collapsed. Fortunately, no one was hurt but it is really unsafe as there is a great big gaping hole, foam coming through and wires exposed and it is not possible to use the bathroom without going through the kitchen. So, I am agonising over sorting, almost tempted to leave a ghastly mess behind here and get out of here asap.

    What I am trying to illustrate by my own anecdotal story is that the outcomes of mistakes are critical juncture for innovation and change. In human beings there is the question of what we learn from mistakes, which is the psychological factor in the any evolutionary perspective on 'mistakes' or flaws in nature.
  • Agent Smith
    8.9k
    Well, one thing's for sure, we fear making mistakes and that discombobulates you and then you actually make a mistake, the one you most didn't want to, and that further discombobulates you, you make more mistakes - the death spiral terminates when your world comes crashing down around your ears, psychologically speaking. The vicious cycle consisting of two mutually reinforcing forces (fear and mistakes) has claimed many lives, young, old, men, women, even gods.
  • Jack Cummins
    4.6k

    The vicious cycle of mistakes and fear is probably central to the idea of karma and what is learned through the consequences of action, with the principle, 'As you sow, so shall you reap.' It does seem for many people it is a vicious cycle of similar experiences as a basis for experiential learning and reflection.

    There are also the big and the small mistakes as a spectrum. The big ones are those such as criminal acts, including murder, which alter the course of one's life entirely. For most people, however, it is more about wrong jobs, courses and failed relationships, which lead to regrets. It can be hard to avoid getting stuck in wallow in self pity or recrimination and move on. Everyone goes at different paces and,often, 'quick fixes' as solutions don't work.

    There is so much variation in what is learned practically and how much is part of the philosophy quest itself. Perhaps, in the grand scheme of human life mistakes may lead a person to go deeper in the search for wisdom and understanding.
  • 180 Proof
    10.9k
    Success is stumbling from failure to failure with no loss of enthusiasm. — Winston Churchill
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