• Andrew4Handel
    2.3k
    By saying females I am including women and girls and even females of other species animal mothers and so on.

    These thoughts came to me watching Wonder Woman and contrasting the treatment of Male and female super heroes.

    It seems to me that male traits are seen in a more positive light than female ones still and that traits like nurturing, caring and kindness and forgiveness are seen as weaknesses.

    There is evidence such as in the fact that the majority of people in the caring professions are female that these traits are not just stereotypes and even if they were they would be positive stereotypes.

    Male traits also can be viewed as negative however I think they still lead to more success and influence in certain areas of life.

    So where should we go from here in regards to responding to and analysing these kind of traits. I feel we need to celebrate the female traits and encourage them to be aspirations whilst not degrading useful male assets. Maybe not rankling traits at all unless they are anti social ones.
  • Benkei
    6.1k
    Those aren't male or female traits but gender stereotypes. You shouldn't confuse the two. That said, it is correct that male gender stereotypes are valued more than female ones. It reinforces biases as people try to conform their behaviour to what's expected and the end result is a lot of sexism even from people who don't intend it.
  • 180 Proof
    10.9k
    The first "positive characteristic of females" that comes to mind is they are not males.
  • Agent Smith
    8.9k
    The first "positive characteristic of females" that comes to mind is they are not males.180 Proof

    :rofl:

    Does it still work if we flip it around? :chin:
  • Agent Smith
    8.9k
    Would an AI designed to protect mankind - if it comes down to choosing only one of two, a last man xor a last woman (imagine a spaceship has room for only one person) - choose the man or the woman?
  • Benkei
    6.1k
    Neither. Why waste the resources?
  • Benkei
    6.1k
    I thought you liked Spinoza. That's one guy. And I know you positively love me and I pretend to be a guy online.
  • Agent Smith
    8.9k
    Neither. Why waste the resources?Benkei



    :lol:
  • Tzeentch
    2.2k
    It seems to me that male traits are seen in a more positive light than female ones still and that traits like nurturing, caring and kindness and forgiveness are seen as weaknesses.Andrew4Handel

    By whom? I can't think of anyone I know that doesn't value those traits highly.
  • universeness
    4k
    I don't think females are asking to be valued equally to males, I think they are exclaiming that there will be continuous hell to pay, if they are not.
  • NOS4A2
    6.5k


    Anything to do with motherhood ought to be cherished and celebrated as activity befitting of a woman.
  • Andrew4Handel
    2.3k
    By whom? I can't think of anyone I know that doesn't value those traits highly.Tzeentch

    Popular culture.

    I grew up as a male around young males of my age and older and I was badly bullied physically and otherwise. Completely different experience with men and women. I have had problems with women but not the same kind as with men and also the crime rates reflect the differences between males and females 90% of crime done by men including the vast majority of violent and sexual crimes. Also most suicides are men which you can view as violence against the self.

    What evidence do you have that society values female traits (considering the pay for jobs dominated by women) How many super heroes are female.

    How come heroes have to be aggressive and strong and vengeful and not caring and nurturing and reasonable?
  • Andrew4Handel
    2.3k
    Those aren't male or female traits but gender stereotypes.Benkei

    Statistics would disagree.

    I don't think the statistics about the number of women working in care and the amount of men in prison are caused by stereotyping but likely by biological traits.

    Do you think men should ape women and vice versa?

    Where men occupy a role usually occupied by women that can be an outlier like a male nurse but not evidence that men and women are the same.
  • Tzeentch
    2.2k
    Popular culture.Andrew4Handel

    What's that and why would it be reflective of society's values at large?

    What evidence do you have that society values female traits (considering the pay for jobs dominated by women)Andrew4Handel

    Why would pay be considered an indicator of how much a society values certain traits?

    Isn't parenthood greatly valued in any society? Guess how much that pays.

    How many super heroes are female.

    How come heroes have to be aggressive and strong and vengeful and not caring and nurturing and reasonable?
    Andrew4Handel

    Super heroes are for children.
  • Andrew4Handel
    2.3k
    Isn't parenthood greatly valued in any society? Guess how much that pays.Tzeentch

    The argument is no and that is why it is unpaid work.

    Super heroes are for children.Tzeentch

    I would wager that most people that watch super hero films are adults and that they have some cultural influence. Why do you think things like the Dc franchise are so popular?

    How come there is not the female equivalent to Incels?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel

    Incels have now committed acts of mass murder.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel#Mass_murders_and_violence

    "On August 4, 2009, George Sodini opened fire at an LA Fitness health club in Collier Township, a suburb of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Three women were murdered and nine other people were injured before Sodini killed himself.[142][143] He purportedly expressed sexual frustration and complained of constant rejections by women on a website registered in his name.[144] Sodini and his actions have been embraced and glorified by some members of incel communities, who sometimes refer to incel violence as "going Sodini"
  • Tzeentch
    2.2k
    The argument is no and that is why it is unpaid work.Andrew4Handel

    I don't think the amount of money something costs or yields is necessarily reflective of its actual value. Happiness cannot be bought, yet you can spend fortunes on things that will make one profoundly unhappy.

    To say societies don't value parenthood comes across as a bit disconnected, and if anything it shows that using wages as a measure of value is insufficient.

    I would wager that most people that watch super hero films are adults and that they have some cultural influence.Andrew4Handel

    Even if that's true, you believe adults take their life lessons from those movies? I'd like to think adults are little more sensible than that, and that is reinforced by the fact I see very few adults trying to conduct themselves like super heroes.

    How come there is not the female equivalent to Incels?Andrew4Handel

    How should I know, and why is it relevant? Also, aren't radical feminists basically the female equivalent to incels? :yum:
  • Benkei
    6.1k
    That doesn't follow at all and what you think isn't a fact so we can ignore that. It's rather well known stereotypical gender traits are expressed by the other gender, so it's not as if they are incapable. And it certainly isn't as if men are biologically hardwired not to care about others. So no, it's not biology.
  • Jack Cummins
    4.6k

    Men and women project so much onto each other and there are so many cultural aspects of gender. For this reason, Judith Butler, spoke of gender as performance. Stereotypes come into this, including ideas of psychology and ideals of the perfect body. It is likely that the media and popular culture feed into this and it may contribute to the rise of gender dysphoria.

    The emphasis of a binary of gender divisions goes back throughout history but it may be that freedom from stereotypes may create greater creative expression of uniqueness beyond the confines of biological attributes. It is hard to think completely beyond gender and those who are seen as gender deviants and outlaws may be those who experience the harshest negative cultural treatment.

    Historically, women were treated as inferior and there was such vast changes, especially with feminism, in the twentieth first century. There was postmodernism, with the idea of deconstruction of gender. In the twentieth first century there are probably remnants of all previous forms of prejudice and homophobia, and many individuals are struggling to make sense of the nature of difference, especially in its most basic division of males and females, as well as all binary distinctions, including the negative and positive, like the interplay between the yin and the yang.
  • Andrew4Handel
    2.3k
    What doesn't follow from what?

    I don't know what you mean by a stereotype here.

    Most sub Saharan Africans are black. The white people living there are not a sub category of black. It doesn't disprove the the idea that Africa is a black continent.

    Things that are mainly exhibited by women are because women exist not because someone invented these traits. Gender ideology doesn't make sense especially if you don't recognise biological reality as a basis for traits.

    If I wanted to be more Chinese I would have to have skin colour and feature alterations under surgery to Match the biological reality of ethnic Chinese eating loads of Chinese food and learning to speak mandarin would not make me Chinese.
  • Andrew4Handel
    2.3k
    Women carry a child to term and give birth and are the primary care givers of children.
    It makes sense that women and mens biology and psyche are different for survival reasons and child care. Men may need to use superior strength to protect a woman when she is very pregnant. It would explain aggression trends and other things.

    Biology creates an immutable division between men and women and that is the only way children can be produced.

    Crude prejudices and stereotypes exist but dismantling them does not dismantle biological difference.

    People may play up to stereotypes of be unable to fulfil them. I am a tall bulky gay man who doesn't like sport and used to hang around with girls in primary school and read loads of books aimed at teen girls.

    I never questioned my sex because I never identified stereotypes as having much substance. But stereotypes may emerge from trneds among population groups and have some truth.
  • Andrew4Handel
    2.3k
    Judith Butler, spoke of gender as performanceJack Cummins

    I view her as a big villainess who has encouraged the rejection of reality and the mutilation of bodies. Apparently she may have had her own breasts removed.

    If gender is a performance apparently, for her, part of the performance is poisoning yourself on wrong sex hormones that increase your risk of dementia, eyesight loss and heart attack
    and then the sterilising effects of genital mutilation and puberty blockers.

    I can't imagine our biology intended to get it self mangled for a mental image we have of our self.

    I see the performance of gender as lying and unnecessary in the same way I felt no shame what so ever reading books written for teenage girls (Sweet dreams/Sweet Valley high) and I felt no shame for not liking football and cars.

    I hate the mindless stupidity of the easily led. To be blunt. Now even non conformity is conformity and people pretend to have a series of wacky identities which are all seeming to be annoying, shallow, unintellectual postures.

    Now I have big reservations when I see someone with blue hair, tattoos and piercings and so on.
  • Andrew4Handel
    2.3k
    How should I know, and why is it relevant? Also, aren't radical feminists basically the female equivalent to incels?Tzeentch

    Have you heard of a radical feminist going on a shooting spree?

    Radical feminism maybe damaging in its own way that I can accept.

    But we are talking about crime, anti social behaviour, murder and war. I can also accept this may be caused by male DNA and Hormones but this thread is about celebrating what women bring to the table (even if some of these things prove to be exaggerated stereotypes.) Not bashing men.
  • Jack Cummins
    4.6k

    I see someone like Judith Butler as being a person living out the existential dramas of conflicting ideas and stereotypes. It is so easy for people to criticise trans people for what they are doing. After the times of liberation there is a backlash against transgender people. The thing is that in previous times, especially in the Christian church there was so much hostility towards gay people. Even now, in some cultural groups there is still extreme hostility towards gay people.

    In many ways it is about the construction of 'otherness'. In the first post reply to me you mention women bearing children. Of course, that is true and it would be foolish to dismiss biology. However, all these aspects are about political power and the women's liberation movement is also about addressing sexism. Addressing sexism and racism are important political realities. History is about dominance and even this thread could be seen as sexist because it is largely men talking about women.

    If anything, it would be interesting if women wrote on the the thread as opposed to being written about, in order to bring balance. Sometimes, the gender threads on this forum become popular with all kinds of hostile views about gender, almost as dumping grounds. This may because the issues arise emerge as a form of cultural wars, from the midst of individual and group dynamics of projection.
  • Andrew4Handel
    2.3k
    It is so easy for people to criticise trans people for what they are doing.Jack Cummins

    What is a trans person and what are they doing? I know a lot about this area. There isn't a coherent consistent definition of trans and it is now a legally recognised right to be skeptical of gender ideology (see Maya Forstater) I don't share your gender religion.

    There are hundreds of identities and people are having bizarre frankly unethical surgeries like having their nipples or part of their breasts removed to express their androgyny and non binary identities. (I can present photos and links)

    I think the onus is on gender ideologist to explain and defend their claims. If someone trans identified or with a special gender identity wants to defend there position on this thread (through reason) nothing is stopping them. I would welcome the enlightenment but I have read peoples own accounts numerous time and they are incoherent and fantastical.


    History is about dominance and even this thread could be seen as sexist because it is largely men talking about women.Jack Cummins

    There is nothing stopping women participating in this thread, joining this forum and disputing claims made on this thread. This happens to be a male dominated forum as is philosophy as a subject.

    Men interact with women a lot, read women's accounts, read about human biology, there are many male gynaecologists. they are not unexposed to women, the concepts involved and have informative interactions with them usually from birth.

    I am happy for women to talk about men and happy to challenge there opinion if I disagree with it.
    You seem to be implying that no one can have any insight into anyone else if they are not them. (solipsism?)
    There appears to be objective facts about the world such as biological facts and statistics about male and female criminality etc.
    I am not going to ask anyone's permission to have an opinion on them that is thought policing and a dishonest form of communication.
  • 180 Proof
    10.9k
    Does it still work if we flip it around? :chin:Agent Smith
    Noooo! :sweat:
  • Possibility
    2.8k
    By saying females I am including women and girls and even females of other species animal mothers and so on.

    These thoughts came to me watching Wonder Woman and contrasting the treatment of Male and female super heroes.

    It seems to me that male traits are seen in a more positive light than female ones still and that traits like nurturing, caring and kindness and forgiveness are seen as weaknesses.

    There is evidence such as in the fact that the majority of people in the caring professions are female that these traits are not just stereotypes and even if they were they would be positive stereotypes.

    Male traits also can be viewed as negative however I think they still lead to more success and influence in certain areas of life.

    So where should we go from here in regards to responding to and analysing these kind of traits. I feel we need to celebrate the female traits and encourage them to be aspirations whilst not degrading useful male assets. Maybe not rankling traits at all unless they are anti social ones.
    Andrew4Handel

    When we try to associate two dichotomies - in this case positive/negative and male/female - we’re never going to generate ‘true’ statements or conclusions from the language.

    In the context of superheroes, I would agree that physical, violent capacity and invincibility to such aggressions are portrayed as valued traits - regardless of gender. But modern superhero mythology also explores the question of whether it is demonstrations of this capacity (perceived value) or how/why we choose to act/not act that makes a superhero: compassion, self-sacrifice, forbearance, gentleness, self-control, introspection and collaboration are less about a ‘show of strength’ and more about a willingness to interconnect regardless of perceived power.

    As a female, I think female characters such as Wonder Woman, Black Widow, etc show (in different ways) how our experiences as women (ie. being underestimated based on demonstrations/perception of capacity) contribute to an overall understanding of human capacity. It isn’t in our actions that we are powerful, but also in the choices we make to not attack, to not show strength, to show restraint, thoughtfulness and care - not instead, but as part of a more rounded, less quantifiable understanding of power/capacity.

    Weakness refers to the relative lack of a particular, assumed strength, not an overall incapacity.
  • Agent Smith
    8.9k
    Noooo! :sweat:180 Proof

    Thank god! :sweat:
  • Andrew4Handel
    2.3k
    Here is some Background on Wonder Woman.

    "Wonder Woman is a superhero created by the American psychologist and writer William Moulton Marston (pen name: Charles Moulton),[2] and artist Harry G. Peter. Marston's wife, Elizabeth, and their life partner, Olive Byrne,[3] are credited as being his inspiration for the character's appearance"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Woman

    "Although created to be a positive role-model and a strong female character for girls and boys,[250] in the controversial Seduction of the Innocent, psychiatrist Fredric Wertham claimed, as a point of criticism, that Wonder Woman's strength and independence made her a lesbian"

    "In 1972, just months after the groundbreaking US Supreme Court decision Roe v. Wade, science fiction author Samuel R. Delany had planned a story for Ms. that culminated in a plainclothes Wonder Woman protecting an abortion clinic. However, Steinem disapproved of Wonder Woman being out of costume, and the controversial story line never happened.[256]

    The original significance of Wonder Woman had the intentions of influencing many women of all ages, displaying the physical and mental strengths, values, and ethical attributes that not only men acquire. "Wonder Woman symbolizes many of the values of the women's culture that feminists are now trying to introduce into the mainstream: strength and self-reliance for women; sisterhood and mutual support among women; peacefulness and esteem for human life; a diminishment both of 'masculine' aggression and of the belief that violence is the only way of solving conflicts," Steinem wrote at the time."
  • Andrew4Handel
    2.3k
    Here is some interesting detail on the characters male creator:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Moulton_Marston

    "Marston posited that there is a masculine notion of freedom that is inherently anarchic and violent and an opposing feminine notion based on "Love Allure" that leads to an ideal state of submission to loving authority"

    Though Marston had described female nature as being more capable of submission emotion, in his other writings and interviews,[23] he referred to submission as a noble practice and did not shy away from the sexual implications, saying:

    The only hope for peace is to teach people who are full of pep and unbound force to enjoy being bound... Only when the control of self by others is more pleasant than the unbound assertion of self in human relationships can we hope for a stable, peaceful human society... Giving to others, being controlled by them, submitting to other people cannot possibly be enjoyable without a strong erotic element.[32]

    One of the purposes of these bondage depictions was to induce eroticism in readers as a part of what he called "sex love training." Through his Wonder Woman comics, he aimed to condition readers to becoming more readily accepting of loving submission to loving authorities rather than being so assertive with their own destructive egos. About male readers, he later wrote: "Give them an alluring woman stronger than themselves to submit to, and they'll be proud to become her willing slaves!"[33]

    Marston combined these themes with others, including restorative and transformative justice, rehabilitation, regret and their roles in civilization. These appeared often in his depiction of the near-ideal Amazon civilization of Paradise Island, and especially its "Reform Island" penal colony, which played a central role in many stories and was the "loving" alternative to retributive justice of the world run by men. These themes are particularly evident in his last story, in which prisoners freed by Eviless, who have responded to Amazon rehabilitation and now have good dominance/submission, stop her and restore the Amazons to power

    Big thanks to the contributors to these articles.
  • I like sushi
    4k
    There are differences between feminine and masculine, but those are not the same as male and female.

    In psychological terms there are differences but they are not huge. Women tend to be more risk adverse so that could be interpreted as ‘nurturing’ in some situations. There is also the argument for such differences being ‘cultural’ but I do not think that makes complete sense if taken too far.

    Men and women are psychologically different but do not seem to be different to the same extremes that they are in physical terms.

    In terms of positive characteristics you tend to see trends of women taking on more prominent ‘masculine’ roles in societies in modern times. In the 1980’s women even wore big shoulder pads to appear more ‘male’ and assert dominance in office environments. This was strangely anti-feminine yet also helped propel women into higher paid jobs etc.,.

    In society womens’ ‘traits’ (if we can call them that?) are generally not rewarded because they are good for roles/jobs that tend to see long term benefits rather than short term benefits - hence the pay of teaching and nursing.

    Note: A good proportion of men are feminine and a good proportion of women are masculine. I am talking in an ‘overall’ sense here.
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