you've just admitted you don't have an issue with tabloids sexually objectifying kids because there's no objective right or wrong. — WhiskeyWhiskers

That's not why I don't have an issue with that. I don't reach any personal moral conclusions because of meta-ethical facts. I don't have a problem with it because (a) I think that "objectification" concepts are nonsensical, (b) I'm a free speech absolutist, and (c) I'm very pro-(libertine) sex.

I don't have a problem with it because (a) I think that "objectification" concepts are nonsensical, (b) I'm a free speech absolutist, and (c) I'm very pro-(libertine) sex. — Terrapin Station

(a) ah, the I-don't-understand-it-so-it-must-be-bullshit-even-though-other-reasonable-people-get-it stance (b) whether people should be allowed to say anything they like has literally nothing to do with whether certain speech acts are moral or not (c) so this includes using sexual language to talk about kids as if they were adults. Gotcha.

Are you aware that watching an excessive number of TED talks will cause your dick to fall off? — Bitter Crank

Well mine seems to be going very strong BC, so I'm not sure about that. But then I'm not a fan of TED. I rarely if ever watch TED talks, I actually hate them. I just gave that video since it contains references to scientific literature all in one place that you can check by yourself.

One of my favorite Ted talks, A STROKE OF INSIGHT by Jill Bolte Taylor is really informative and inspiring. — Bitter Crank

Yes I remember that. That's the story of the gal who has a stroke and somehow manages to dial a friend in time to save herself. Regardless, that was a physical event that she was recounting. In this case, the lecture is based upon scientific studies, which is exactly why I've linked it. It has a lot of resources in one place.

Do you have any reason to question any of the science in it?

So, porn having an effect on the brain is saying no more than riding a bike for 2 hours has an effect on the brain,. — Bitter Crank

Well let's see BC, is decreased willpower, numbed pleasure response and sexual hyperreactivity part of those effects you want stuck on your brain? I don't know man, but if that's your cup of coffee, what can I do? ;)

(a) ah, the I-don't-understand-it-so-it-must-be-bullshit-even-though-other-reasonable-people-get-it stance ( — WhiskeyWhiskers

Well, or that it's a nonsensical concept even if you're not the only person fond of it. In other words, whether it's nonsense has nothing to do with how popular it is.

For (b) I didn't say I wasn't issuing a moral stance. That is my moral stance re speech.

For (c), I hate ageism, but otherwise, yes, basically.

(a) kids are watching so much porn that they have a veritable mental catalog of porn actors at their disposal — Terrapin Station

Of course they do man! Are you kidding me? Most guys probably watch porn by the age of 10 if not even earlier! For example, the first time I watched porn I was ~12 in a computer room - many guys gathered to see the good shit together my dawg >:O And keep in mind that back then technology was very backward. Now, I can't even imagine! They're probably seeing it even when they're 7!

(b) most fellow students know everyone's parents, and — Terrapin Station

Okay let me tell you how it happens. Some kid will ask "Umm what's ur mommy and daddy doing?!", and you'll answer. If your mommy is a porn actress, then obviously you won't be like "Oh my mommy shags men on camera". You'll say she's something else, like a pilot for example. Soon the news of that will spread. Sooner or later, people will be coming to your house, etc. etc. and realise that your mommy can't be a pilot or whatever you said. Soon they'll start researching, and be extremely curious why you haven't said the truth. Someone will find out, and you'll be fucked.

(c) most porn actors are very easy to recognize in person — Terrapin Station

Common bro, if there's this absolutely stunning, jaw-dropping girl in your high school or university, what's the first thing you'll do? Research who she is! Maybe she's a model or something, afterall she's too hot! When I was at university that's how one of my friends found out that this girl he wanted to shag had taken nude pictures online. Even though it was under a different name (well nickname really), he still found the pics!

Now imagine that you have this smoking hot mom when you are in school. What will kids do? Research who she is, clearly! Name and address will often be enough to find out a lot of details.

A lot of porn actors' kids probably have no idea what they do for a living. (At least when they're young kids.)

A lot of porn actors aren't unusually hot re how they look going about their mundane business. And it's not so easy to recognize many famous folks in their everyday lives, especially if they're trying to not be recognized. It's more difficult if you're a celebrity on a level where you have paparazzi regularly stalking you, but that's not the vast majority of celebrities, and it's certainly not porn actors.

A lot of porn actors' kids probably have no idea what they do for a living. — Terrapin Station

They will find out man. Kids are very inventive, trust me. If you think you can fool your kids, you're dumb. Kids are always one step ahead of you when it comes to this stuff, because you always underestimate them, while they always overestimate you. They're better prepared.

A lot of porn actors aren't unusually hot re how they look going about their mundane business. — Terrapin Station

They certainly have better physiques than your average person, otherwise they wouldn't be in porn in the first place, especially the women.

You know that a huge percentage of porn is fetish porn, including chubby women, mature women, very average looking women, etc., right?

You know that a huge percentage of porn is fetish porn, including chubby women, mature women, very average looking women, etc., right? — Terrapin Station

No, I don't watch it, I hope you can tell me more though >:)

I consume plenty of porn, so yeah. You're thinking of more or less a caricatured stereotype.

I consume plenty of porn, so yeah. — Terrapin Station

So you like it watching the meat hit the plate while you bust them nuts in half no? Cooking is an enjoyable activity afterall ;)

I hope you ain't doing it right now mate! Or did my appetising descriptions entice you to go cook up some food?

Well, or that it's a nonsensical concept even if you're not the only person fond of it. In other words, whether it's nonsense has nothing to do with how popular it is. — Terrapin Station

That's not what I was saying though, is it? My point wasn't that it's true because lots of people believe it. My point was that it's not nonsense because clearly other reasonable people can make sense of it - something you have admitted you can't do.

For (b) I didn't say I wasn't issuing a moral stance. That is my moral stance re speech. — Terrapin Station

You said, in other words, that it's morally acceptable for anyone to say anything, no matter how objectionable, because you're a free speech absolutist. I could also be a free speech absolutist, but I could at the same time have extreme moral disagreements with what other people say. You're mixing up two separate things.

For (c), I hate ageism, but otherwise, yes, basically. — Terrapin Station

Does that mean you don't believe in age of consent laws?

That's not what I was saying though, is it? My point wasn't that it's true because lots of people believe it. My point was that it's not nonsense because clearly other reasonable people can make sense of it - something you have admitted you can't do. — WhiskeyWhiskers

I wasn't saying anything about truth value either. And obviously plenty of folks think the concept makes sense. The slightest bit of critical analysis demonstrates that it doesn't actually make sense, however.

You said, in other words, that it's morally acceptable for anyone to say anything, no matter how objectionable, because you're a free speech absolutist. I could also be a free speech absolutist, but I could at the same time have extreme moral disagreements with what other people say. — WhiskeyWhiskers

Yeah, and? That in no way implies that my moral stance on speech isn't that all speech/expression is morally permissible.

Does that mean you don't believe in age of consent laws? — WhiskeyWhiskers

I do not. I'd hinge consent on ability, not age.

My point wasn't that people think about others the same way. It was anytime someone is attracted, desires or intentionally acts towards a person, they are thinking about them. The argument from a porn watcher they are only looking at and thinking about a hot image is first order bullshit. They're thinking about someone else and, in some way, how they are significant.

The same applies to watching women in the media. If someone is watching women in the media and, for example, reducing them just to "hot legs," there is a thought about the significance of a woman and how she is valuable-- not for her policies, her skills, her personhood, but simply that she's legs that got someone aroused.

Objectively, to focus only on someones's in the context of a political and public discourse, is to think about them not as competent or incompetent people who have some significance to politics, but to consider they are only their as hot legs for someone to enjoy.

Problems of objectification have nothing to do with whether someone happens to have one particular trait or not. Nor does it have anything to do with which traits are "more a part" of a person than others. It's always to what someone else thinks of a person. The question isn't about whether polices or hot legs are a more "valid" aspect of a person, it about how someone thinks and relates to a person who has policies and hot legs. Do they recognise her a person who makes legitimate (whether it be good or terrible) policy and has a role governing the country? Or is she dismissed as only legs to get someone off? Or in the case of porn, is an actress recognised as a person who is entertaining a viewer or is she seen as only an object the viewer is entitled to?

The argument from a porn watcher they are only looking at and thinking about a hot image is first order bullshit. They're thinking about someone else and, in some way, how they are significant. — TheWillowOfDarkness

The claim that it's bullshit is based on what?

I think humans are in a unique position. We're in some kind of transition phase between animals and, what I call, something higher. Perhaps ''higher'' is a loaded word but you'll probably let that slide. So, we're torn between our animal instincts (that knows no shame or, more pertinently, morality) and our higher selves (our rationality, morality). Much of our ''problems'', including the one the OP discusses, arises from this tension - like a circus lion divided between trained obedience and unchained aggression.

I think humans are in a unique position. We're in some kind of transition phase between animals and, what I call, something higher. — TheMadFool

Thanks Nietzsche.

From its definition, it's intended to stimulate sexual excitement.

Wouldn't the world be a better place without the passions? — anonymous66

But what's their purpose? Are they some kind of anomaly? Don't they serve any function?

Large scale agreements occur in totalitarianism as well and yes, they're not pure coincidence but how are they morally valuable?


1. Porn actors are free to change their jobs and porn industry is legal and regulated, the stigma that comes with it is assumed and may be itself the problem.
2. People can make an addiction from virtually anything.
3. You mean: porn as an addiction has long-standing effects on the brain but so does any other addiction.
4. Isn't that such a naive and immature point of view anyway?

I'd hinge consent on ability, not age. — Terrapin Station

(Y)

Do they recognise her a person who makes legitimate (whether it be good or terrible) policy and has a role governing the country? — TheWillowOfDarkness

Maybe they're not interested in politics, ever thought of that? Objectification comes into play when someone's not recognized as a person which doesn't happen just because their approach and outlook are ignored and focus is on a part of their physical appearance. I'd argue that if you view politicians as just bunches of policies and political views, then you're objectifying them.

1. Porn actors are free to change their jobs and porn industry is legal and regulated, the stigma that comes with it is assumed and may be itself the problem. — Noblosh

What's the impetus for your idea here that porn actors are "free to change their jobs"?

2. People can make an addiction from virtually anything. — Noblosh

What does virtually everything entail?

3. You mean: porn as an addiction has long-standing effects on the brain but so does any other addiction. — Noblosh

Yeah...definitely...

1. Porn actors are free to change their jobs and porn industry is legal and regulated, the stigma that comes with it is assumed and may be itself the problem. — Noblosh

The stigma is inevitable.

2. People can make an addiction from virtually anything. — Noblosh

So what? Porn is addictive by its very nature, it is impossible to dabble in porn and not be addicted.

3. You mean: porn as an addiction has long-standing effects on the brain but so does any other addiction. — Noblosh

Yes, and we should fight against all addictions, including porn.

4. Isn't that such a naive and immature point of view anyway? — Noblosh

No. Case closed.

Yes, and we should fight against all addictions, including porn. — Agustino

Word. Thread closed?...

Word. Thread closed?... — Noble Dust

>:O It would be, but nobody, including the moderators, have the power to close threads :P

Fair enough. Free speech over all.

What's the impetus for your idea here that porn actors are "free to change their jobs"? — Noble Dust

They do it because they choose to and in the same way they can quit.
They're not forced to do it more than any other wage labourer is.

What does virtually everything entail? — Noble Dust

Anything that gives a rush of dopamine and considering how variable and diverse human preferences are, any prefered activity can become an addiction, for example, exercising.

Yeah...definitely... — Noble Dust

Sure.

The stigma is inevitable. — Agustino

Why fight against addiction but not against stigma? Isn't addiction also inevitable?

it is impossible to dabble in porn and not be addicted. — Agustino

Untrue, where did you even get that idea from?

Yes, and we should fight against all addictions, including porn. — Agustino

Yes, but again, it's not as if porn is an addiction in itself.

No. — Agustino

Then maybe educate people if they themselves can't grasp that much. They need to know the downsides, clear facts, not the theory that it's wicked and deplorable and should be banned, that doesn't tell them much.

They do it because they choose to and in the same way they can quit.
They're not forced to do it more than any other wage labourer is. — Noblosh

Ok, links of studies to drive home your point?

Anything that gives a rush of dopamine and considering how variable and diverse human preferences are, any prefered activity can become an addiction, for example, exercising. — Noblosh

So are addictions positive? Neutral? Negative?

Sure. — Noblosh

The point being: how can we cast a positive light on porn when we also at the same time talk about it as an addictive substance? It's cultural. Cigarettes used to be culturally acceptable, via advertising. We don't exactly advertise about porn yet. Fine. (I'm a cigarette smoker, btw).

Isn't addiction also inevitable? — Noblosh

Is watching porn inevitable?

Untrue, where did you even get that idea from? — Noblosh

Can you sniff cocaine and not be addicted?

Then maybe educate people if they themselves can't grasp that much. They need to know the downsides, clear facts, not the theory that it's wicked and deplorable and should be banned, that doesn't tell them much. — Noblosh

I have provided you with a video containing the facts. Have you watched it?

Ok, links of studies to drive home your point? — Noble Dust

If you think I'm wrong you should give me studies to refute my argument and drive home my ignorance.
I don't even get the perception that the porn industry is forceful but I get that it can be overbearing and inconsiderate. But one can argue that the software industry can be like that too.

So are addictions positive? Neutral? Negative? — Noble Dust

Addictions are defined as negative. Or at least that's how I understand this definition:

a brain disorder characterized by compulsive engagement in rewarding stimuli despite adverse consequences

If you think I'm wrong you should give me studies to refute my argument and drive home my ignorance. — Noblosh

As you've conceded by your response, my point is that there are none; or, rather, the only "studies" are those done by groups with a stake in the claim. I find this meaningful when making blanket statements about the state of the porn industry.

I don't even get the perception that the porn industry is forceful but I get that it can be overbearing and inconsiderate. — Noblosh

The difference being?

I don't get it, you really want me to educate you on addiction and porn industry?
But I lack the required authority.

Still:

Can you sniff cocaine and not be addicted? — Agustino

The difference being? — Noble Dust

Are those rhetorical questions? If yes, you're doing it wrong.
Of course you can sniff and not get addicted, a sniff doesn't transform you in a heroine dependent, and the difference is the same one between being extorted and paying your debts.

You both have strong views on these topics and I'll respect that, I mean myself, and won't start a senseless fight. I think it's a win-win.

I don't get it, you really want me to educate you on addiction and porn industry?
But I lack the required authority. — Noblosh

Case closed, then?

Are those rhetorical questions? — Noblosh

Mine isn't.

I think it's a win-win. — Noblosh

How?