• universeness
    3.5k
    What you prefer isn't the question. In general, we have to trust that parents and families are the best people to look out for their children. I certainly believe that. Sure, there are bad parents. Human social behavior is not perfect. I still think it's our best bet.T Clark

    while I believe religion has no place in school. Good citizenship, yes - informed citizenship.Vera Mont

    One must address the lacklustre to highlight the lustre. Otherwise we are simply being biased which leaves teens vulnerable and naive.Benj96

    Do you think we could create AE systems (artificial expert systems) that could do a lot of the heavy lifting, when it comes to the balanced academic and social education that children need in today's world?
    There are a few new systems (one I know about in Finland), that teaches children electronically from home. They don't attend school but they do still get together physically in groups, when they can, for the purposes of live debate, physical education etc. They visit hospitals, charity orgs, parks, museums etc. The cities become their school grounds so to speak. At home, they are taught via Virtual reality systems, augmented reality systems and just by networking with software and live teacher/pupil conferencing. It is thought that such systems are initially very expensive to set up but will be much cheaper, long term, when applied to city populations, compared to the costs involved in running city schools.
    If we can create a balanced, unbiased, virtual, educational, electronic system which can almost immerse the child, in an education, that would allow them to meet and talk to a virtual Socrates or/and Carl Sagan etc. Role play in many emulated social circumstances and be presented with 'situations,' and be given feedback on whether they made wise choices etc and they would have the possible consequences of the choices they made in a simulated scenario, fedback to them, perhaps as further simulations. Do you think we could create a very high quality, economically viable, reliable, balanced social and academic, virtual reality, home based education system, that would do the heavy lifting in nurturing all the children in the world from year 1 to year 21? I think we probably could.
  • Vera Mont
    313
    I agree with the level of complexity you cite within the issues you raise but I think the solution may lie in some kind of AI/expert systems, which will help humans deal with such complexity and will indeed allow the kind of nuanced, individualised approach, which will remove the chance of personal human prejudices being applied, which cause unjust and imbalanced actions.universeness

    Like the one I suggested in the UN hub of internet traffic? I suppose something of the kind could work in legal systems regarding published material, too... after the the world government is established, and central regulating agency has programmed its mega-computer to deal with all of it... So, we just have to wait out the collapse and resurrection if civilization.
  • Vera Mont
    313
    Do you think we could create a very high quality, economically viable, reliable, balanced social and academic, virtual reality, home based education system, that would do the heavy lifting in nurturing all the children in the world from year 1 to year 21? I think we probably could.universeness
    We could. But "we" don't want to.
    If all we cared about was the welfare and education of our young, we didn't have to wait for virtual reality or computers; we could always have treated our children better than we did. We had lots of choices (and proposed models, and examples) other than the kinds of school we instituted over the centuries. They served and still serve a political, ideological, economic social agenda that isn't about suiting education to children but molding children to the needs of the elite.
  • universeness
    3.5k
    They served and still serve a political, ideological, economic social agenda that isn't about suiting education to children but molding children to the needs of the elite.Vera Mont

    Better to plan for a better future than to mourn the bad behaviours of the past or present. We all must just learn from them and not repeat or continue to sustain them.
  • Vera Mont
    313
    Better to plan for a better future than to mourn the bad behaviours of the past or present.universeness

    "We" propose; "they" dispose. There is nothing to stop you from planning. I have a plan for education reform that I devised forty years ago, and it still hasn't been adopted. What would motivate them - the same elite that's still in possession of the power and wealth - to implement your plan?
  • universeness
    3.5k
    What would motivate them - the same elite that's still in possession of the power and wealth - to implement your plan?Vera Mont

    You have already identified it, people power!
    I don't think it is the same elite as the ones from days gone by. Their power has been in decline since the days of the first nations, otherwise you would still be ruled by a foreign King Charles II.
    I don't think they have the power or anonymity they used to.
    I think they are more and more unsure of their 'divine rights' or their 'Money trick,' and gangster style tactics and their dynastic, inherited/passing on of that which was stolen, self-justifications.
    I think even the celebrity culture and status is eroding.
    What's 40 years or a human lifetime or 2022 years. Nothing but a splash in the cosmic ocean.
    In the cosmic calendar, there are 437.5 years per cosmic second, so 43.75 human years would be 0.1 seconds in the cosmic calendar. A current human lifespan, at that scale, is a camera flash!
    I think the last page of the cosmic calendar should have the message 'so give us humans a f****** chance guys, we are still just coming out of the end of our beginnings!'
  • T Clark
    10.3k
    True, I asked what you prefer. And you have been very clear. Thank you.Vera Mont

    What I meant was that what either of us prefers doesn't matter. It's the community's values that should be taken into account.
  • T Clark
    10.3k
    Do you think we could create AE systems (artificial expert systems) that could do a lot of the heavy lifting, when it comes to the balanced academic and social education that children need in today's world?universeness

    Some thoughts:

    In the US, studies show that distance learning that took place as a result of the pandemic has seriously undermined the quality of education for students involved. I know of teachers who say the same thing. I think this has to be taken into account in any program that deals with learning from home.

    I am skeptical that there is some sort of technological solution to improving education. It seems to me that a program generated and implemented by artificial intelligence would be more rigid and limited and less responsive to students than regular schools are. That's based on my own assumptions, not any specific knowledge.

    When I think back to the good parts of my experiences in school, it is particular teachers that come to mind. Mrs. Coepcke, my 11th grade English teacher. Mr. Polychronus, my 12th grade biology teacher. Professor Deandre, my geotechnical engineering professor. I don't think any educational program will work without active involvement by adults who care about the students and their education and are prepared to provide the work and effort required.
  • T Clark
    10.3k
    create a balanced, unbiased, virtual, educational, electronic systemuniverseness

    Another thought. I think any centralized, standardized education program will be subject to political and social pressure to conform to a particular vision of what education should be. That's already a problem with regular school systems.
  • universeness
    3.5k

    Two example sites worth looking at and thinking about:
    https://litslink.com/blog/usage-of-virtual-reality-in-education-pros-and-cons
    https://e-student.org/virtual-reality-in-education/

    There are many many others, which look at all aspects of education via VR and AR.

    In the US, studies show that distance learning that took place as a result of the pandemic has seriously undermined the quality of education for students involved.T Clark

    Is that a valid comparison or a valid standard to measure by? A time of national crisis?
    I don't think there was much high-quality AR or VR used during the emergency situation education authorities found themselves in during the pandemic. Both my nieces were at uni at the time and the quality of the hardware/software systems they were using at home was minimal to say the least.
    Certainly, no VR or AR.
    I am skeptical that there is some sort of technological solution to improving education. It seems to me that a program generated and implemented by artificial intelligence would be more rigid and limited and less responsive to students than regular schools are.T Clark
    A skeptical position is always a healthy one. Parents need to have system prototypes presented to them. They have to be allowed to ask all the kinds of questions you are asking and the solutions must be demonstrated to them. If no current solution exists to the problems identified, then they must be developed, based on the cyclical feedback of all stakeholders. There is an established software development method for doing this, use of alpha testers, beta testers, demo software etc.

    When I think back to the good parts of my experiences in school, it is particular teachers that come to mind. Mrs. Coepcke, my 11th grade English teacher. Mr. Polychronus, my 12th grade biology teacher. Professor Deandre, my geotechnical engineering professor.T Clark

    There are plans to identify 'good teaching practice' and film such over a school year.
    If this was done very systematically over a few years, then these exemplars could be used to create emulated characters based on the kind of 'good teachers' you refer to. The quality of emulation and simulation is becoming very impressive. But you are correct. A full replacement of our current school system with a home-based VR/AR academic and social education system must be demonstrated and be able to convince a majority that it offers many improvements to our current system.
    Many more internet controls would be required but the ability of such a system to deliver good citizenship to the next generation seems very attractive to me. Human teachers would stilll be a vital part of such a system but would have so many more helpful tools at their disposal.
    In Scotland we have a strong policy of inclusion in our secondary schools. This gave me many classrooms of pupils of mixed ability and special needs. A class with high, medium and low academic ability kids is hard enough but if you add special needs kids as well, autistic, MS sufferers, asperger's, ADHD, selective mutism, partial hearing, partial sight etc, etc. Often each special needs kid had their own helper in the room with them, so you could have three or 4 adults trying to do their tasks as you tried to cater successfully to 20+ children. Some software assists were starting to come in to alleviate the stress on teachers, just as I decided on early retirement. Much more is needed. I completely agree with inclusion, but one teacher does not have all the skills required.

    Another thought. I think any centralized, standardized education program will be subject to political and social pressure to conform to a particular vision of what education should be. That's already a problem with regular school systems.T Clark

    I agree, but I don't want to retype, regarding some of the ways I think we need to get rid of party politics as a means of governance. I posted about my views on that recently in the thread US Midterms
    As for social pressure, I can only report that in my whole teaching career, the few schools I worked in were strongly supported by the people in their catchment areas. There was a lot of scrutiny as to what was going on in the school but, on the whole, I think such scrutiny was healthy, even if some groups did try to 'bring in more religion' or 'constantly complained about almost everything, whilst offering no solutions or ridiculous solutions.'
  • Vera Mont
    313
    Their power has been in decline since the days of the first nations, otherwise you would still be ruled by a foreign King Charles II.universeness
    Charles III. I quite like him, actually, but he can't control the tories in his own country any more than he could here, and the tories are controlled by moneyed patrons. Of course it's the same elite - they just call themselves CEO instead of OBE and maybe they did their thieving through different methods - the top 0.01% who own 50% of everything, including governments and information.
    On the larger scale, of course all of them will disappear.

    What I meant was that what either of us prefers doesn't matter. It's the community's values that should be taken into account.T Clark

    Yes, I understand that. What I don't know is who or what controls the community.
    Having a comprehensive public school curriculum doesn't hamper parents in teaching their children about values, relationships and social behaviour. By the time children enroll in Gr 1, their personalities are already established; the parents and early caregivers know how best to handle the emotional part of their interactions with the world.

    Another thought. I think any centralized, standardized education program will be subject to political and social pressure to conform to a particular vision of what education should be. That's already a problem with regular school systems.T Clark

    Of course, as is also the case with each locally administered system: it's designed on some philosophical basis; some central idea of the purpose of educating children. Hence the need for democracy without too much corruption and voter suppression, so that a true majority of the people decide. The only difference is that with no set standards, the quality and content will vary from place to place, so that in one state or province or county the graduates of public school will have a much better chance at higher education, higher achievement and a better living, while another region may be doomed to generations of economic and cultural stagnation.

    As for distance education, the proposal I considered was not simply an isolated child sitting in front of a screen, as many students did under quarantine, but something far more sophisticated:
    They don't attend school but they do still get together physically in groups, when they can, for the purposes of live debate, physical education etc. They visit hospitals, charity orgs, parks, museums etc. The cities become their school grounds so to speak. At home, they are taught via Virtual reality systems, augmented reality systems and just by networking with software and live teacher/pupil conferencinguniverseness
    I would add a few more outdoor and creative activities, but I think some version of this flexible arrangement would serve children's far better than sitting in plastic chair all day long.
  • T Clark
    10.3k
    Is that a valid comparison or a valid standard to measure by?universeness

    I don't know.

    As for your other responses to my comments, I remain skeptical, but I'm don't have any specific knowledge.
  • T Clark
    10.3k
    What I don't know is who or what controls the community.Vera Mont

    The people who live there control the community. That's the point. Even if the choices the community makes aren't the ones we would like them to.

    Of course, as is also the case with each locally administered system: it's designed on some philosophical basis; somIe central idea of the purpose of educating children. Hence the need for democracy without too much corruption and voter suppression, so that a true majority of the people decide.Vera Mont

    The point I've been trying to make is that each community, each school system, should have input in deciding what is and isn't taught in its own schools; what is and isn't included in its library.

    the proposal I considered was not simply an isolated child sitting in front of a screen, as many students did under quarantine, but something far more sophisticated:Vera Mont

    I still think person to person, teacher to student, contact is needed for true learning.

    I'm not rejecting the kinds of plans you and @universeness are discussing, but I am skeptical.
  • Vera Mont
    313
    The point I've been trying to make is that each community, each school system, should have input in deciding what is and isn't taught in its own schools; what is and isn't included in its library.T Clark

    Yes, I understand that. But if poorly educated people live in a town, their choice of material is limited by their knowledge, and their children will never be able to compete with the children of a more prosperous, better-educated community, and so the prevailing caste system is reinforced. That is also the result of segregating schools and ghettoizing cities. It could work better if there were a high academic standard (with concomitant funding and teacher training) of core subjects like grammar, math, science, history and geography, peripheral ones like civics, music, health, physical education, art, literature, comparative culture and religion, which individual families or entire communities could choose for their children. If they all came out of middle school literate and numerate, they'd have the basic tools to learn more.

    I still think person to person, teacher to student, contact is needed for true learning.T Clark
    Yes, I fully agree that 's an integral part of the learning experience, just as contact with peers is an integral part of the socialization process. I'm only proposing that it alternate with solitary study (computer-aided homework) and take place in different settings and with a variety of teachers, as well as different cohorts for each activity, rather than the same little flock (with their same pecking order), presided over by the same adult (with his or her same competence level and preconceptions) in all subjects.
  • T Clark
    10.3k


    I think the difference between you and me on this issue is one of emphasis, not primarily substance.
  • Vera Mont
    313
    I think the difference between you and me on this issue is one of emphasis, not primarily substance.T Clark

    That may well be the case.
  • universeness
    3.5k
    and take place in different settings and with a variety of teachers, as well as different cohorts for each activity, rather than the same little flock (with their same pecking order), presided over by the same adult (with his or her same competence level and preconceptions) in all subjects.Vera Mont

    Only in a society, where people can take their basic means of survival for granted, perhaps via a UBI or via a money free, resource-based economy, where the basics are birthrights, from cradle to grave, could 'Teaching' become the vocation it always should have been. I never needed a salary to teach, I needed a salary to live. VR, AR and internetworking are essential teaching tools for the future, for the very practical and irrefutable reason, that a single teacher cannot cater effectively to the needs of any significant number of individual, mixed ability, and special needs children.
    In private schools, mixed ability classes can be as small at 5-10 pupils.
    I can deal effectively with 20 high ability academics, that's easy, and a joy, but mixed ability and special needs, is a whole different ball game, and is, by far, the majority situation that teachers have in front of them in their classrooms every day. Some can produce astounding successes, even under very difficult circumstances and crushing workloads but they burn out in a few short years because they are humans!
    I think I would still be teaching if I had not completely mentally and physically burned out due to the stresses and implausible demands, I could just about deal with at the beginning.
  • Vera Mont
    313
    I never needed a salary to teach, I needed a salary to live.universeness

    That, right there, is my vindication for the advocacy of zero employment! Everybody should be able to do what they love, and I'm quite sure, given the opportunity - everybody would find some work to love. With the basic needs guaranteed, we would have a great many more teachers (You must have some among your acquaintance who quit for lack of support, unreasonable clerical demands or just plain burnout... though, in Finland, probably not so many as get disgusted with the low pay and constant abuse to which American teachers are subjected.), and some who have a particular talent and desire to help slow students and special needs students, and children with exceptionalities of every kind. Because all children are exceptional - and all children are interesting - and interacting with them is rewarding.
123Next
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.