• Gnomon
    Ex mea (humble) sententia, let the facts speak for themselves. It can't be denied that when one is (sensu amplissimo) thinking, there's electrical activity in the brain.Agent Smith
    Yes, but in this thread we differ on our humble opinion of The Facts. For example, is it a "fact" that "Correlation does not imply Causation", as Hume concluded? Or is the notion that electrical activity causes thinking an instance of the "correlation causation fallacy"*1. Obviously, physical processes (electrical) must be somehow converted into non-physical (mental) processes. But continues to chase his own tail, by repeating the fill-in-the-blank query "How does non-physical A affect physical B and yet remain discernibly non-physical?"*2 That sounds like a typical gotcha trap. It's like asking "when did you stop beating your wife?". There's no way to answer without admitting guilt -- in this case the crime of Dualism, denying the ultimate authority of materialistic Science.

    The scientific genius Descartes could not answer his own skeptical question about the relationship between Mind & Matter. So, he punted with a "non-overlapping magisteria" philosophical compromise : Mind/Body dualism. Four centuries later, the philosophical genius Daniel Dennett, claimed to explain Consciousness in terms of the interaction of physical and cognitive processes in the brain. Yet again his "explanation" assumes that Correlation is Causation. Which begs the question of "how?". Another materialistic explanation is "Consciousness as a physical process"*3. Ironically, one definition of Information is "organized energy". Which could be construed to imply that physical Information (energy ; neurons) is also meta-physical Information (ideas ; aboutness ; awareness).

    And that is close to my own gap-filler hypothesis : Mind is the result of a Phase Transition from one form of Generic Information*4*5 (power to cause change) to another (power to communicate ideas). But the notion of GI is unfamiliar, so I relate it to Plato's Logos, and Aristotle's Reason, and to the fundamental mathematical principle of Ratio (correlation). However, this kind of Correlation is not between "discernibly different" Magisteria, but between Physical Form and Metaphysical Function*6. Your cell phone is a physical object, but its function is non-physical communication. And the communication is meaningless until the sender Mind is connected to the Receiver Mind.

    The key concept here is the multiple roles of Information in the universe. Scientists have recently concluded that Mathematical (logical ; non-physical) Information*7 can transform into physical Energy*8, which in turn can transform into Matter*9. What this means is that Generic Information can transform into Causal Energy, and thence into malleable Matter. Therefore, it's all Information, all the way down (i.e. Information Monism). :smile:

    *1. correlation causation fallacy :
    The phrase "correlation does not imply causation" refers to the inability to legitimately deduce a cause-and-effect relationship between two events or variables solely on the basis of an observed association or correlation between them. ___Wikipedia

    *2. I would reply that the physical cause (organized patterns of energy ; the code) does not remain physical. Instead it transforms into the non-physical logical patterns that we consciously interpret as Meaning. Of course Mind/Meaning is correlated to Brain/Energy, but they have different functions. The physical dots & dashes of the Code (physical information) must be translated into the imagery of interpreted Meaning (metaphysical information).

    *3. Consciousness as a Physical Process :
    The aim of this paper is to outline a principle according to which consciousness could be explained as a physical process caused by the organization of energy in the brain

    *4. What is Information ? :
    The power to enform, to organize, to create, to cause change, the essence of awareness. . . . .

    *5. Information is :
    Claude Shannon quantified Information not as useful ideas, but as a mathematical ratio between meaningful order (1) and meaningless disorder (0); between knowledge (1) and ignorance (0). So, that meaningful mind-stuff exists in the limbo-land of statistics, producing effects on reality while having no sensory physical properties. We know it exists ideally, only by detecting its effects in the real world.
       For humans, Information has the semantic quality of aboutness , that we interpret as meaning. In computer science though, Information is treated as meaningless, which makes its mathematical value more certain. It becomes meaningful only when a sentient Self interprets it as such.
       When spelled with an “I”, Information is a noun, referring to data & things. When spelled with an “E”, Enformation is a verb, referring to energy and processes.


    *6. Function : a relationship or expression involving one or more variables.

    *7. Mathematical Information :

    *8. Information converted to energy :

    *9. Information to Energy to Matter :
    The fundamental triad of energy/matter/information
  • 180 Proof

    ... as usual, @Gnomon is just making shit up or limited by poor reasoning.180 Proof
  • jgill

    Welcome back, buddy. Nice photograph.

  • Agent Smith

    Your honor, Mr. Brown's fingerprints were all over the house - on the door knob, on the knife, on the faucet, on the TV remote. However, there were two cigarette butts in the ashtray and a glass of half-finished Whiskey on the kitchen table. Neither Mr. Brown nor the deceased who was stabbed 22 times smoked or drank.
  • Agent Smith
    Welcome back, buddy. Nice photograph.jgill

    Why, thank you! Good to see you too.
  • Gnomon
    Your honor, Mr. Brown's fingerprints were all over the house - on the door knob, on the knife, on the faucet, on the TV remote. However, there were two cigarette butts in the ashtray and a glass of half-finished Whiskey on the kitchen table. Neither Mr. Brown nor the deceased who was stabbed 22 times smoked or drank.Agent Smith
    Are those all the facts of the case? If so, what is your verdict? If not, what is the missing piece of evidence? :joke:
  • Agent Smith


    David Chalmers is a genius; most philosophers are.
  • Gnomon
    David Chalmers is a genius; most philosophers are.Agent Smith
    Apparently Chalmers merely pointed-out an ironic situation -- mind/body disjunction -- that some people accepted as normal (mind physical), and others as impossible or illogical (mind metaphysical). :smile:
  • Agent Smith
    Chalmers seems to be quite knowledgeable about science.
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