Is what you've written intended to be about meaning? It doesn't seem so to me. I wrote earlier in this thread and elsewhere that I don't think poems mean anything beyond the experience of the person reading or listening to it. Your post seems more like an explanation of how the poet has used language to help us share that experience. — T Clark

To be honest, I find this hard to answer. First the last sentence: my post is more about how I read the poem than about the what the poem did. I've experienced time and again that the same words can be read differently. For example, key to my reaction is that I slow down while reading the last line, but there's nothing in the poem that forces me to do so. A poem, read aloud, is always already an interpretation (though not necessarily consciously so). And I don't think the differences in reading are random.

Some readings may fit the formal characteristics of a poem better than other readings. I remember thinking (not only once), well, that's awkwardly phrased, until I heard someone else read this. For example, speeding through two consecutive syllables might allow to linger on a different one that would be an "unemphasised slot" otherwise. I wish I still had an example, but it's been at least 20 years ago, now. I remember the feeling of the dropping penny, but not the specifics of the poem(s).

Meaning tends to influence rhythm as much as the other way round, and different people might emphasise different words. A short Poem:

Danielle Hope, "The Mist at Night" (from The Poet's Voice, 1994):

Perhaps it's the trees, look -
on sentry parade by the lake,
October weighting their branches,
a flotilla of shadows
casting nets over the water.
Perhaps it's the black-out under the trees -
terse chestnuts crack underfoot.
The water-rat snores from dumb roots,
the hawthorn racked red with doubt.

Perhaps it's the mist - wide awake
like a child before Christmas -
or that you think the air weeps
and you don't want it to stop.
So you tug up a tough ugly stump
to wake the lynx that sleeps
just under your heart.
To chase the sleepy lynx out of its lair.
To run wild in the mist in the night. — Dawnstorm

The most striking means of subdivision is the repetition of "Perhaps it's the...", which gives the poem its structure, until the final five lines are introduced with "So," initiating a conclusion [...]
On the semantic level, the "perhaps" refuses to make a definite statement, and the "it" is indeterminate, never telling you what it's talking about. So you have a sort of vague, dreamy feel just from non-sensual words.
The mist from the title doesn't come in until the start of the second stanza. The first stanza gives the setting, but does smuggle in impressionistic figurative language. — Dawnstorm

Thank you. Your post has given me plenty to think about meaning; how it is made and infuenced.
As you and Srap point out, it is shaped by words; their emphasis, rhythm, sound and symbolism.

One way to think about poetry is that it foregrounds elements bedsides the words that shape our understanding of an utterance...Hugh Kenner tells a story about Eliot, that returning to England on the ferry, someone called his attention to the white cliffs of Dover and remarked that they didn't look real, to which Eliot responded, "Oh they're real enough," a sentence Kenner takes to have four different meanings depending on which of its four words you emphasize — Srap Tasmaner

Here are my thoughts, inspired by your post:

The Title: 'The Mist at Night' suggests a myst-erious dream. It sets the stage.

'Perhaps it's the...' - the writer is asking questions as she dreams. There is some confusion; the mist of uncertainty. The psychological mindset tries to understand the dream contents.

Time and place: October. Autumn. Trees whose bare branches overhang a lake. Love the lightness of 'the flotilla of shadows casting nets over the water' contrasting with the gloomy shade at the roots.
As you say:

It's a change in the mood (and the "blackout" foreshadows this, actually). Semantically, the chestnuts being terse fit well with a "crack", but the word is a little odd. The water-rat line feels a little more relaxed again, but not quite as much as the trees-line, and the hawthorn line ends on the plosive of "doubt". — Dawnstorm

I wonder why you say the word 'crack' is odd. Perhaps you are thinking of horse chestnuts in the form of conkers. They would be hard to crack. However, it might be that it is the cracking open of the spiny husks, the protective burrs where the seed comes from. A renewal.
There is a repetition of the '-ack' sound in ''black-out' and 'racked'.

'The water-rat snores' - is this about hibernation? Not in real life they don't. So, this is symbolism.
Apparently, a water rat is associated with the Chinese Zodiac - the Earthly Branch and the midnight hours. Also, linked to personality: smart, deep-thinker with spiritual inclinations. Perhaps.
If it is snoring, then like the writer it sleeps. The inner spirit is dormant, ready for an awakening.

'The hawthorn racked red with doubt' - symbolism of fertility. Hmm. Racks of small, round berries.
Also with protective, small thorns. Doubt about the way forward? To open up or shut down.
Is the writer wracked with physical or mental pain?

Perhaps it's the mist - wide awake
like a child before Christmas -
or that you think the air weeps
and you don't want it to stop. — Dawnstorm

Again, the curiosity. The exciting sense of a gift or a surprise. Rubbing the eyes, half-awake but eager to go, discover, unwrap. Remove the veil...

So you tug up a tough ugly stump
to wake the lynx that sleeps
just under your heart.

There's the vivid imagery, and the mix up of inner and outer world. (For example, if you tug up a tough ugly stump to wake the lynx that sleeps just under your heart, where was the stump, and did it hurt? — Dawnstorm

Yes. If the writer is still dreaming, still in that uncertain place by the lake, she needs to continue.
The ugly stump of a chestnut tree - what would cause it? Disease or withering of the body requiring it to be sawn down? Now lifeless with no spirit.
To release the lynx, to progress means to remove the obstacle and any shame of not being perfect.

The lynx: also known as the 'ghost cat' is associated with secrecy; the need to keep thoughts to yourself.
But also the ability to live freely without fear of worry. They don't have predators where they hang out.
They have a camouflaged coat.

Like the 'water-rat', it sleeps. This time under the heart. Is that silent place the same as 'dumb roots'?
But now, action is being taken; the protective cover and doubt removed:

To chase the sleepy lynx out of its lair.
To run wild in the mist in the night

I end the poem at its slowest (even though semantically, the poem's adressee is supposed to run wild). — Dawnstorm

Yes, there's probably a name for that. To run wild, I think, is her excitement at the prospect of living free without any internal or external constraints. It is a resolution. The calming of doubt.

The transition from a deadened and dispirited body to a renewed life and spirit. Freedom!!
To follow the dream...

***
Your thoughts...anyone?

A poem, read aloud, is always already an interpretation (though not necessarily consciously so). And I don't think the differences in reading are random. — Dawnstorm

Interesting. I hadn't thought of audio versions as being interpretations.
But you are right. It is why I choose readers with a good voice suited to my ears. Also, those who know and understand the meaning of the story. And what the author is trying to convey to the readers.
They can express the highs and lows, the humour and the tragedy by changing tone, rhythm and so on.

I know for a fact that I wouldn't have read the Italian poem ' Il Lampo' ( The Lightening) in the same way.
Not even in the English version:

una casa apparì sparì d’un tratto;
a house appeared disappeared in the blink of an eye; — Amity

The sound snapped me to attention like a lightning strike.

I wonder why you say the word 'crack' is odd. — Amity

Oh, sorry. I meant the word "terse" is odd: I associate it with speech, behaviour of people. It's the first conspicuous time I noticed that nature was being personified. It's odd for a chest nut to be terse. I mean, it was right there with the sentry parade of trees, but at that point that was just imagery to me. They stand around like guards.

I should have put quotation marks around "terse", too, maybe rephrase that bit.

I meant the word "terse" is odd — Dawnstorm

Ah yes, I see that now.
Still, I think it's clever. It surprises and makes us think.
'Terse' as applied to humans can be compact, and concise.
Smoothly elegant and polished. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/terse
Like the brown, glossy seeds of the chestnut tree; conkers.
The tree grown to fruition compared to the now 'ugly stump' no longer fertile...perhaps dry and wizened like the writer in the autumn of her life. With questions like: "Is that all there is?"

Thanks for sharing the poem.

I've been thinking about this poem in the context of some previous posts about translation with @Dawnstorm. I think this one is a good example. The translator made some decisions that seem odd to me. My French is not good, but the translation of the first verse seems very different from my understanding. The English version seems to have a lot more going on than the French. I checked on Google translate. I think I like the English version better, but they seem really different. Obviously the translator brings much more understanding and nuance to the translation than Google and I do.

Moving "La rose dit à la tombe :"/"The Rose said to the Grave" to the end of the stanza in the English version also seems odd. It changes the tone and flow of the poem in a way I don't really like.

All in all, I think I like the English version better. Part of that is that I like the way English sounds better than I do French. I like harder, squared off edges better than the rounding over.

This all just reinforces my impression that translations are really distinct things compared to the original poem. Almost something completely new.

Combing through posts to respond in kind --

This Be The Verse

By Philip Larkin

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another’s throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself. — Tom Storm

I am unfortunately in the mood for gallous humor more often than not, so I laughed -- but it's kind of a mirthless laugh (that's still funny for all that, but dark)

While I'm no anti-natalist, I'd be surprised if there weren't people these days that haven't had these thoughts. And sometimes it's better to belt them out than ignore them, even if I know, deep down, I'd not follow through.

So I basically can't even trust my initial take anymore. — Dawnstorm

:D -- I feel this sentence. But I think that's OK, too. It's not so bad to be wrong, as long as we understand ourselves fallible, and are willing to change -- then it's actually not bad at all. It's just a part of being human.

(Trust me, I even looked about to figure out why I thought the 10-line form was a sonnet, and according to the internet it was an invention of my own mind ;) )

I haven't read The Wasteland, have to admit I'd never even heard of it.
I'm interested in 'the sound of the poem', so I searched Librivox:

There are quite a few readings but this one sounds good to my ears. It is last in a selection of 60.
(I was delighted to find 'The Owl and the Pussycat', a childhood favourite, easy to remember and recite.)

https://librivox.org/poetic-duets-by-various/ — Amity

I was planning on listening to this this morning (Monday's at work tend to be slow) -- but it was blocked. I"ll have to settle for listening at home. (Maybe when I mark out time to type out that essay to share...)

Well, I'm not sure that you can make a general claim about 'modern poets' from a single, stand out example of 'Modernism':
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Waste_Land

But I don't really understand what point you are trying to make.
Meaning is there, no matter the form. — Amity

I may be making a point to no one at all, at least in this discussion. And, definitely -- I'm over-generalizing. All the bad habits of someone trying to figure something out. I think I'd get along well enough with "Meaning is there, no matter the form" though. In fact I think that's what I'm getting at. The form isn't a necessity for meaning. (though I'd say it's a part, or something. Form seems to be a place where meaning can get generated)

But yes, one couldn't make a general claim from a single example. I agree with that. I'm just trying to start from somewhere.... (I'll try and type out the essay from my book to share... it's probably a lot of where this is coming from)

Previously, I posted poetry about current Ukranian war by female poets. Who read or responded?
I was trying to move beyond English male-dominated, traditional poems. — Amity

Sorry, while this pursuit is noble, I found them really hard to read is all. The Ukrainian war being so... now. And USians cheering on the whole affair like it's a football match... it's just hard for me to comment on stuff like that. (there's a reason I avoid the Ukraine thread)

This Be The Verse

By Philip Larkin — Tom Storm

Footnote: My friend would say to her baby daughter, who objected sometimes to being put to bed, as babies do, "They tuck you up, your mum and dad, and they mean to, yes they do."

Where are you finding them? The short form suits me well :flower:

So, a simple couplet. Clever; reflecting title and theme.
What do you think/feel when you read it? — Amity

Wendy Cope suffered in the early days of the internet (perhaps still does) from having invented meme verse before memes. Her poems went everywhere and she got nothing. She fought for copyright but I think it was a losing battle. Her book "Making Cocoa for Kingsley Amis" is a treasure. Her selection of "Funny Poems" is beautiful. "Two cures for love" is about romantic obsession. We can either preserve our fantasies at a distance and feel deprived or turn them into reality and feel equally or even more deprived. It is a satirical poem: the target is not the inadequacy of men or of lovers but the emptiness of fantasy. In two lines. She is great at putting loose conversational speech into strict traditional verse form - here's another one, rules mentioned again, rules of prosody:

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1031860-nine-line-triolet-here-s-a-fine-mess-we-got-ourselves-into

:ok:

The translator made some decisions that seem odd to me. — T Clark

Thanks. You've paid more attention to the poem than I did. It's made me look again and I have still more to see...

I wondered about the translator and if there were any notes to explain the choices made.
I found this translator, without explanatory notes: Florence Earle Coates
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poems_(Coates_1916)/Volume_II/The_Tomb_Said_to_the_Rose

THE TOMB SAID TO THE ROSE
AFTER THE FRENCH OF VICTOR HUGO

THE tomb said to the rose:
—"With the tears thy leaves enclose,
What makest thou, love's flower?"
The rose said to the tomb:
—"Tell me of all those whom
Death gives into thy power!"

The rose said:—"Tomb, 't is strange,
But these tears of love I change
Into perfumes amber sweet."
The tomb said:—"Plaintive flower,
Of these souls, I make each hour
Angels, for heaven meet!" — Wikisource

***
Another version but unclear who the translator is, possibly Andrew Lang:

The Grave And The Rose

The grave says to the rose:
- Tears with which the dawn waters you
What are you doing, flower of love?
The rose says to the grave:
- What do you do with what falls
In your still open abyss?

The rose says: - Dark tomb,
Of these tears I make in the shadows
A scent of amber and honey.
The tomb says: - Plaintive flower,
Of every soul that comes to me
I make an angel from heaven! — All Poetry

https://allpoetry.com/La-Tombe-Dit--La-Rose-(The-Grave-And-The-Rose)

***
More here:
https://www.lieder.net/lieder/get_text.html?TextId=26009

All in all, I think I like the English version better. Part of that is that I like the way English sounds better than I do French. I like harder, squared off edges better than the rounding over. — T Clark

I enjoy both. For me, the original poem by Victor Hugo is simple and clear-cut; the dialogue easier to follow. It rolls better.
The rose challenges the tomb with a question before giving her response in stanza 2.
The tomb has the final say.
I would like to hear this poem rather than just read it. And delve below the surface...
Life's sensuality v the hard religious aspect. The tug of war...between the natural and supernatural.

La tombe dit à la rose :
- Des pleurs dont l'aube t'arrose
Que fais-tu, fleur des amours ?
La rose dit à la tombe :
- Que fais-tu de ce qui tombe
Dans ton gouffre ouvert toujours ?

La rose dit : - Tombeau sombre,
De ces pleurs je fais dans l'ombre
Un parfum d'ambre et de miel.
La tombe dit : - Fleur plaintive,
De chaque âme qui m'arrive
Je fais un ange du ciel !

Sorry, while this pursuit is noble, I found them really hard to read is all. The Ukrainian war being so... now. And USians cheering on the whole affair like it's a football match... it's just hard for me to comment on stuff like that. (there's a reason I avoid the Ukraine thread) — Moliere

Thanks for your response.
The 'pursuit' is nothing more than giving examples of other traditions and outlooks. There is nothing particularly 'noble' about it. I think it is worth looking at other contexts and circumstances other than those we find 'comfortable'.

I'm glad you attempted a read and appreciate you sharing your thoughts. I understand.
This discussion has helped in articulating how poetry makes us feel; what meaning we can find, if any.
All good :flower:

Thanks again for all the time and effort you are putting into this discussion :100: :up:

I will take time to read your wonderful post later. Thank you so much :flower:
Also, this:

She is great at putting loose conversational speech into strict traditional verse form - here's another one, rules mentioned again, rules of prosody:

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1031860-nine-line-triolet-here-s-a-fine-mess-we-got-ourselves-into — Cuthbert

Sorry, while this pursuit is noble, I found them really hard to read is all. The Ukrainian war being so... now. And USians cheering on the whole affair like it's a football match... it's just hard for me to comment on stuff like that. (there's a reason I avoid the Ukraine thread) — Moliere

Yes, I feel the same thing. I keep thinking something really bad is going to happen that will affect the whole world.

Yes, I feel the same thing. I keep thinking something really bad is going to happen that will affect the whole world. — T Clark

This feeling of dread and anxiety is perfectly natural and understandable. It's one of the reasons I have been attracted to this thread; a most welcome distraction from the overwhelming feeling that things just keep getting worse...

Not sure that anxiety is a place I want to dwell, but perhaps it is worth exploring poems with this theme:

'Anxiety can affect us in different ways, so it should come as little surprise that poets have represented, expressed, and depicted anxiety and anxious states in a myriad fashions.
In the following pick of the best poems about suffering from anxiety, we find modernists using the dramatic monologue form to give voice to the outsider’s fear of social interaction and political poets writing about anxiety over the future.'

https://interestingliterature.com/2021/10/best-poems-about-anxiety/

I would like to hear this poem rather than just read it. — Amity

Well, why not listen to Liszt!
Liszt, La tombe et la rose, S. 285 (1844) - with score and subtitles


As well as English subtitles, there's a German translation in the score.
Calling @Dawnstorm - would you agree?
It also reminds me of your:

Next, "phrase" is also a word used in music theory: a phrase is built from lower level stuff, too, like, say, motifs, but I'm not that knowledgable here. In any case, if you riff of this term, you might consider a phrase a compositional unit that somehow completes a rhythm. A phrase might co-incide with a line, with half a line, with a couplet... depending on the poem. You can then compare the rhythmic units with units of meaning: Do they co-incide? Do they overlap? And so on. — Dawnstorm

I'd be interested to hear how well the music, song and singer interpret the poem and the phrasing.
Any ideas?

Calling Dawnstorm - would you agree? — Amity

I'm not sure with what?

I'd be interested to hear how well the music, song and singer interpret the poem and the phrasing.
Any ideas? — Amity

I don't speak much French, but turning a poem into song lyrics... changes things. To different degrees, depending on how it works.

What I notice about the sheet music is that it doesn't only have German lyrics (my mother tongue, by the way), it has two different versions of the melody to account for extra notes. "Tom-be", two syllables, for example is accounted for by a half-note and a quarter note (with the half-note going to the stressed syllable), while the German "Grab" is accounted for by a dotted half-note. And so on.

In general, music tends to emphasise duration over pitch and volume in a melody. And then you have chord quality, which is rather interesting here. Right from the start we get Gminor --> G7 --> Am7 --> Bb --> Cm7/Bb (?) and so on. There's a lot of modulation here, before we even establish a clear key. The key signature suggests either G-minor or Bb-major. Songs about graves tend to be in minor, and sure enough, we start with a Gm chord, but then we immediately go into a major seventh chord, which is - obviously - not in the key of G-minor. Seventh chords are often used to modulate - and so I'd have expected to get a either C-major or C-minor, and for a while I thought I got C-major, until I noticed that the bass was playing an A, so what I really got was Am7 (which you could also interpret as C/A, especially after G7). And then it goes up a half-step and switches from block-chords to arpeggios... And from there, then, you'd need to figure out where the melody creates dissonance that "wants to resolve"...

That's a lot of work, just to have the bare facts of both syllable count and music. And then you'd need to analyse how this connects... And you'd need some sort of theory to do so, because this type of singing has little in common with speech. My hunch is I'd have to start with relative duration of syllables (within the song), since the most obvious difference is that when speaking the poem, you're done with a line much sooner. Beyond that I have little intuition, and part of it is that I'm not as familiar with French as I'd need to be. I don't feel confident to say much here.

I'm not sure with what? — Dawnstorm

To clarify: I meant the German translation of the poem.

[...] I don't feel confident to say much here. — Dawnstorm

Wow. Thank you.
You've written more than I hoped for and more than I can understand... about the key changes.
I will have to look again tomorrow. Tired now.

While browsing for poems -- I have never before ventured down the path of The Wasteland until now. And I really did love it. I read an essay beforehand, knowing that the poem is notoriously difficult, and she suggested to sit at home with the sound of the poem rather than starting out with the analytic approach of trying to understand all the references, or even all the images! I can feel the cohesive mood in the poem, but the ending mystifies me. — Moliere

With your inspiration, I just read "The Wasteland" too. To paraphrase Charles Montgomery Burns - I don't know poetry, but I know what I hate, and I don't hate that. I started out using Kindle to look up references and foreign phrases, but I quit after a couple of stanzas. I figured I would just plow through without trying too hard. If I read it again I'll dig in more.

I have an association with the first stanza:

April is the cruellest month, breeding
Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
Memory and desire, stirring
Dull roots with spring rain.

This is from "Two Tramps in Mud Time" by Robert Frost, one of my favorite poems:

The sun was warm but the wind was chill.
You know how it is with an April day
When the sun is out and the wind is still,
You're one month on in the middle of May.
But if you so much as dare to speak,
A cloud comes over the sunlit arch,
A wind comes off a frozen peak,
And you're two months back in the middle of March.

They share a theme in a sense, but with different tones and frames of mind.

As for the poem as a whole, it doesn't seem tricky, at least on the surface. It's clear there's depth there, but I'm not sure I think it's worth the trouble to go deeper. Frost is more accessible without sacrificing complexity. That's more my style. The main story has a similar tone and outlook with Prufrock. Passive, unsatisfied people stuck in the tarpits of stifling middle class social expectations. I don't find that very attractive, but I recognize it's not supposed to be. Maybe I'll read some interpretations if I can find some that are worth it.

With your inspiration, I just read "The Wasteland" too. To paraphrase Charles Montgomery Burns - I don't know poetry, but I know what I hate, and I don't hate that. — T Clark

YouTube has some good recordings of people like Alec Guinness reading it out. For me it helped get into the rhythm of Eliot.

YouTube has some good recordings of people like Alec Guinness reading it out. For me it helped get into the rhythm of Eliot. — Tom Storm

Thanks. I'll take a look.

YouTube has some good recordings of people like Alec Guinness reading it out. For me it helped get into the rhythm of Eliot. — Tom Storm

:smile: :cool:
Absolutely brilliant, thanks! His voice clear, resounding, rich and unique. Exactly what I was looking for.
Much better than any Librivox reading. Why wouldn't it be? It's Sir Alec Guinness aka Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Thanks. I'll take a look. — T Clark

I remember you enjoyed him as le Carré's George Smiley in 'Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy'.
His interpretation brings the poem to life; listening to the rhythm increased my appreciation :100: :sparkle:

The Waste Land (TS Eliot) read by Alec Guinness
( includes times for each of the 5 parts)

I started out using Kindle to look up references and foreign phrases, but I quit after a couple of stanzas. I figured I would just plow through without trying too hard. If I read it again I'll dig in more. — T Clark

I agree with a first reading, of anything, simply to enjoy the overall sense and experience; an intuitive guessing at the meaning of the words without worrying if you 'get it'.
It's a useful approach when learning a foreign language and poetry can be a bit like that.

A second reading allows you to pause at words; to discover and reflect on their meaning.

And I now appreciate that in poetry, listening can enhance this process of learning...what's it all about...

:pray: :up:

No, it's a jingly kind of pop. — Amity

Back to the OP, listen out for 'That Shakespearherian rag' in The Wasteland. It's so elegant. So intelligent. Not the Bangles, but Cole Porter, for example.

loose conversational speech into strict traditional verse form — Cuthbert

And for the scene in the pub. "Hurry up, please, it's time."

I started out using Kindle to look up references and foreign phrases, but I quit after a couple of stanzas. — T Clark

Eliot provided his own notes, which are not always published in full text online versions but here they are:

https://wasteland.windingway.org/endnotes

Unfortunately the notes themselves assume a knowledge of Italian, German and Latin. So for what it's worth.

Eliot provided his own notes, which are not always published in full text online versions but here they are:

https://wasteland.windingway.org/endnotes

Unfortunately the notes themselves assume a knowledge of Italian, German and Latin. So for what it's worth. — Cuthbert

Good find.
Here's something else I haven't yet had time to read:
https://poemanalysis.com/t-s-eliot/the-waste-land/

Again, thanks for all the pointers. Will definitely look later. I do love this discussion :love: