• Yozhura
    65
    Now this might sound crazy, but to me at least makes perfect sense. Prove me otherwise if you can.

    Our society's valuation about humans is very highly based on the fact that we're supposed to work, otherwise we are valueless to the society. Well this way of thinking might have worked in the past, when everyone still had to work for the society to develop and maintain itself. Nowadays it is not necessary for every single human to work for a society to work. It has been proven in the time that i have been alive, that our society can provide enough money for basic necessities needed for life and it will have a little to no impact in the overall health of our society. We are the most civilized race of beings that we know of. How is it that the definition of civilized is "the stage of human social and cultural development and organization that is considered most advanced" doesn't make sense when you actually think about it. If what i'm about to assume based on the information i've gathered can't be proven to me otherwise. It'd be the biggest scam of my life.

    Money is an illusion.

    Illusion because of the fact that the definition of slavery is "Slavery and enslavement are both the state and the condition of being a slave, who is someone forbidden to quit their service for an enslaver, and who is treated by the enslaver as their property Slavery typically involves the enslaved person being made to perform some form of work while also having their location or residence dictated by the enslaver." It makes perfect sense to think of working in a sufficiently advanced civilization being as not a necessity, but a choice, which would motivate you to make better choices to gain a benefit to yourself or others around you. On today's standards we're forced to work to sustain ourselves, even though our society could provide for you if they deem you beneficial enough for them to provide such assistance. If you try to be the best person you are and improve yourself to benefit those around you, because by benefitting others you will gain benefits from them aswell. Otherwise it would be extremely rude for that person to not try to benefit the one from which he gained benefits. Now you can do a favor and that is fine, but if you're only taking from others and not providing anything back. You've now became a weight to your society. Based on our current evaluation of human value, this does not mean that to sustain yourself you have to work. If your existence otherwise benefits those around you, you are still worth the benefits gained from our society just because your existence is a benefit in some way to our species. Nowadays we do not have a choice in this matter. You're deemed worthless to society if you can't for some reason or another work to sustain yourself. Even if you could still be beneficial to others in many ways, in some ways being way more beneficial than you doing a job that you hate causing you to hate your existence, which is one of the most important things a human should value in life, just because you're forced to based on our current standards of what we value in others and ourselves. Our current standards implies that a human has no other aspect in them, except work. In our current model of undestanding about what is beneficial for species advancement. This doesn't make sense based on the facts that i've provided in this post. Is money the only thing that is valuble to others about your existence? meaning that our purpose in life is to only live for others and to generate money to the society, because there is no other way of living respectably. Meaning that our existences only purpose is to generate money to others. This is the biggest realization i've had in a while. Even though as a person i'm in no way beneficial to humanity as a workforce, simply based on the fact that i'm pretty much bad at everything except thinking logically and i haven't found a job in which i could be a beneficial aspect. Being forced to work to sustain myself, even though i could be way more beneficial to the humanity if i tried my best to improve myself for the benefit of others and myself. I'd expect a decent human in our civilized community to value me in some way to see it beneficial to themselves to provide money for me to sustain myself. Even though i can't pay back the money i gained from you. Are you implying that my time and other actions which benefit you aren't worth the money to you. it is possible for you to obtain money. For some it is not possible. So why is it thought that a human, who is not compatible with our current work society is worthless as a human. This can only mean one thing. Money is the only thing that matters in life, which in my mind should not be a definition of good individual life. Rather a motivator to keep on existing.

    If we aren't allowed to choose how we live our lives. Why is it ok for our species to expect that every individual should works as a slave to those who are in power, just to sustain themselves. Literally the definition of slavery if you think about it logically, based on our current beliefs in ethics and morals. If we aren't allowed to remove our existence via euthanasia or another way, why is it ok to think like this as a civilized species. We are forced to do something our whole lives, even though it could be more beneficial to the overall health of humanity to give value to things that actually matter in a good individual life. By providing better experiences to humans, you'll most likely gain more benefits to yourself.

    Money is just numbers these days. Before our modern society had developed. We'd value others features, because they were beneficial to ourselves and to others around us. It'd be correct to assume that everyone should work to provide for itself and others when this was the only way to sustain yourself. As we have advanced as a species. This is hugely undervaluing for the individual based on our current ethics and morals. You're supposed to spend your most valuable resource in the world and the only one that actually should matter to people, which is your time. Your existence is the biggest advantage an individual could hope to have. For you to waste that potential doing something you hate, because you must, based on our current standards on how a human should behave in modern society, just because you have to live. Your life was never your choice and you're still forced to work for you to sustain your existence and this is based on our highly respected ethics and morals. It could be possible to sustain our species existence while making an individual experience better, which in fact would reflect itself back into the society making everything a little better for everyone living in this world.. Wouldn't it be wrong that in this case we wouldn't change our perspective and ideology into the better one if it's benefit could be massive?
  • Yozhura
    65
    If a fact is a fact no matter what, there is no way for anything to be true, because it could be proven otherwise once intelligence develops high enough that a definition of thing is changed. Nothing can be true, because there is no way for an individual to know why it exists. Universe is far too complex and perfect for a single mind to understand everything it has to offer. Because if you come to the end of the universe. You have amassed all the knowledge you can. You still can't be sure that everything you know at that point is a fact. Meaning an assumption can be made that would explain that everything has to have a reason for it to happen, because if this wasn't true there would be no reason for universe to exist, meaning that nothing actually matters if even our universe doesn't matter and that is the most complex thing we can possibly imagine. If there has to be a reason for something to happen. This would imply that there is a reason for your existence, meaning there is a possibility that you could learn the fact of why you exist meaning a fact has to be a fact no matter what meaning that something is true in it's truest possible sense. Meaning that everything is what it is, because it is so.
  • Yozhura
    65
    If this is a fact. One can only assume one thing.There is a logical explanation to everything, which means that at a certain point logic comes to conclusion and can't be used as a way to reason our existence anymore, because the fact that one could think like this makes it not a possibility. Meaning we can't reason our existence, because we can't believe if our logic can ever be true.
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    I'm not really able to follow so much text going in so many directions. Would you be able to state an argument either in a syllogism or in a few dot points?

    Capitalism has been called 'wage slavery' since the 19th century.
  • Yozhura
    65

    I'm talking about a fact, which would break the world and our undestanding as we know it.
    If true is actually true. One could call such a thing "Absolute truth". Meaning that my way of thinking logically would be the most optimal way of thinking when it comes to logic.
  • T Clark
    14k


    Humans, like all living organisms, have to procure food, water, and other resources to live. That's what we mean when we say "work." Does that make us slaves or just living creatures living like all the rest?
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    it’s just not that clear to me what it is you are saying. No worries, let’s see if others can assist.
  • Mikie
    6.7k


    I really can’t make heads or tails of any of this either.
  • I like sushi
    4.9k
    My thoughts are the same after reading the first few sentences.
  • Yozhura
    65


    Your understanding with our current knowledge about logic fails. This means that you simply can't comprehend the fact that i exist, just because you were programmed to think that way.
  • Mikie
    6.7k


    Are you OK buddy?
  • unenlightened
    9.2k
    Money is an illusion.Yozhura

    This is obviously true. I like money because the the nice people at Walmart give me stuff in exchange for it, and they like it because other people give them stuff for it and so on. We call things like this "a social construct" rather than an illusion, because our valuing gives it real value, and one cannot manage without it these days. Economists call it "confidence", and when confidence is lacking, value is lost and inflation occurs.

    On today's standards we're forced to work to sustain ourselves, even though our society could provide for you if they deem you beneficial enough for them to provide such assistance.Yozhura

    This is not quite true, and there is a big difference between the wage-slave and the historic slave. Here are a couple for you to consider: wage-slaves are not beaten or tortured, and if they escape, they are not chased and recaptured and brought back by force: if they choose to starve themselves, they are not force-fed.

    However, depending on where you live in the world, things can still be dire. It is the measure of a civilised society that we do provide for and look after those who cannot work for whatever reason. If this does not happen where you live, then your first job should be to make it happen.

    However, there is no reason why society should deliver food to folks who simply cannot be bothered to lend a hand. Our cooperation multiplies our efforts to an abundance unthinkable for an individual. We are both using the internet and the labour of unknown workers that produce our devices, and thus we incur a debt (a real debt of gratitude) to others.

    Why is it ok for our species to expect that every individual should works as a slave to those who are in power, just to sustain themselves.Yozhura

    It isn't. Divest yourself immediately of everything made by these slaves, and go forth moneyless and jobless to live a free life. (Perhaps hang on to a pair of pants until you have time to fashion a flint so as to kill an animal and make your own leather trousers.)
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Money is anything that we value and yep, we're slaves to anything we value. That's how it works I'm afraid.
  • universeness
    6.3k
    Money is anything that we value and yep, we're slaves to anything we value.Agent Smith

    Do you value the lives of others or do you mean 'value' as in what you can exchange for it?
  • universeness
    6.3k

    Just a question of interest on my part. Are you for or against the idea of a UBI (universal basic income) for all as being trialed in a few projects now.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Do you value the lives of others or do you mean 'value' as in what you can exchange for it?universeness

    Anything we value becomes our master and we its slave. On some occasions, we're willing to enter into such a relationship (healthy up to a point) and at times we're not (toxic).
  • universeness
    6.3k

    Do you think money or its like as the main means of controlling exchange cannot be improved upon?
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Do you think money or its like as the main means of controlling exchange cannot be improved upon?universeness

    I have no clue. I'm not so well-versed in economics.
  • unenlightened
    9.2k
    Are you for or against the idea of a UBI (universal basic income) for all as being trialed in a few projects now.universeness

    For. I can even make an economic argument for it , though with the caveat that when one changes society in one way it can have all sorts unforeseen consequences. It goes something like this:

    The human need is for security in relation to basics - food, shelter, and protection against marauders. These days, we spend such an inordinate amount of our economic activity on security against others, that it would be more cost effective to deprive the world of desperate people, instead of stockpiling weaponry, and building ever higher walls and stronger locks. If everyone had enough to eat, somewhere to live, and access to entertainment and perhaps cheap travel, along with already available education and health services, the attractions of robbery, piracy, and so on would be vastly reduced.

    We can well afford layabouts, much easier than we can afford vandals and robbers. But one effect is that workers would be harder to exploit, if they had an alternative.

    My local scheme: https://gov.wales/wales-pilots-basic-income-scheme
  • universeness
    6.3k

    Fair enough:
    What do you think of the following, based on the concept of the money trick:
    Owen starts to play a game…
    Owen represents the capitalist class – so he claims the bread, the pennies and the knives all belong to him. He casts his friends as the working class, and generously employs them to use the knives to turn the bread into little squares, to represent “the necessities of life”. He pays them a penny each for a week’s work, which is to produce three little squares.
    The workers are hungry. They each buy one square from Owen, with the penny they earned. They eat the bread, and finish the week with nothing. Owen ends the week with the pennies, and more bread squares than he can eat. This is repeated, until Owen decides to take the pocketknives back and close down production, blaming ‘foreigners’ for the situation.
    And just like that the ‘working class’ become destitute. They are stuck – so they try marching, then begging. When Owen allows them a crumb of ‘charity’ they glorify his kindness and generosity.
  • ssu
    8.7k
    Now this might sound crazy, but to me at least makes perfect sense. Prove me otherwise if you can.Yozhura
    Very difficult, because you already have said that "to you it makes perfect sense". How could anybody then alter your thinking? Really? Are you open to other ideas than yours? Just a question.

    Money is an illusion.Yozhura
    It has always been, what else would be something that is a) a medium of exchange b) a unit of account and c) a store of value. All of those are quite imaginary, basically advance agreements in our society that humans have built. And it isn't a tool for slavery, as you might think. Debt can be slavery, but it's also the way to become rich.

    On today's standards we're forced to work to sustain ourselves, even though our society could provide for you if they deem you beneficial enough for them to provide such assistance.Yozhura
    Could it, really? If nobody would work and do anything, likely then we'd die quite quickly.

    Anyway, just few comments, then it's hard to follow your argument.
  • universeness
    6.3k

    I so hope your viewpoint in this area reaches 'vast majority' status asap.
    It would be such an enormous step forwards in creating a positive human life experience imo.
    I agree that it UBI will not be completely problem free but it would change much more for the better than it would for the worse in my opinion.
  • universeness
    6.3k
    On today's standards we're forced to work to sustain ourselves, even though our society could provide for you if they deem you beneficial enough for them to provide such assistance.
    — Yozhura
    Could it, really? If nobody would work and do anything, likely then we'd die quite quickly.
    ssu

    I don't think Yozhura can answer you as according to their profile info, they have been banned.
  • ssu
    8.7k
    Ah. I should have seen that coming.

    Hopefully we can still get a good discussion. Money is an interesting phenomenon in our society.
  • universeness
    6.3k

    Yeah I am familiar with the Welsh trial. What a good beginning for those young people just coming out of the care system.
  • universeness
    6.3k
    Hopefully we can still get a good discussion. Money is an interesting phenomenon in our society.ssu

    Could it, really? If nobody would work and do anything, likely then we'd die quite quicklyssu

    I thought we could possibly refocus the thread onto a discussion on the money trick and UBI.

    Do you really think that something like UBI would mean that most people would choose not to work or take part in activities which would help the society they live in and benefit from?
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Well, it's a sad story, but to my reckoning, capitalism's selling point is that anyone and I mean anyone can become a Bill Gates (Owen in your story). In essence capitalism gives everyone an equal opportunity to become super-rich and that's why no one, save a few, complain. I thinks its just an accident that the super-rich are, sometimes, a**holes! :snicker: Sour grapes?
  • universeness
    6.3k

    What would you do if you were as rich as Bill Gates?
    Let's say you have made sure everyone you care about has been made economically secure.
    You have spent a few years sating your private fantasies.
    You can buy a rolls royce in the same way as I can buy a small packet of peanuts, so for you, purchasing a Rolls Royce or sleeping with a beautiful woman etc is very trivial.
    How would you spend your time and what would your purpose be?
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Bill Gates' donations should be treated and appreciated as charity. No where does capitalism say that once you become wealthy, you have social responsibilities and this is implied in our (all of us) deal with capitalism. In my estimation everyone agrees on this point.
  • universeness
    6.3k
    I thinks its just an accident that the super-rich are, sometimes, a**holes! :snicker:Agent Smith

    I think it comes with the territory and I would never compare the rich (especially the super rich) to ar**holes as that particular system is a very vital and effective waste disposal system. The rich are a waste that certainly requires some kind of effective disposal short of physical termination.
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