Spoiler alert :wink:
Haven't got to that bit yet...

Thanks, this sounds like a good yarn :cool:

Like you, I must go down

@Fooloso4
What does this remind you of?

Plato's “I went down yesterday to the Piraeus..."
The symbolism of going from Athens (the light, "above") to the port (lowly commercialism).
The division.

It's the eternal return.

Are you asking me? Or saying that it's not dependent? — Tate

I am asking you and anyone else who might be reading.

There's obviously a distinction between high and low. It's a division. — Tate

The question is whether man is a divided being and not a unity of some sort. Of what sort of unity
will be something taken up by Nietzsche.

Why Zarathustra? Or perhaps the better question is, why the return of Zarathustra?
— Fooloso4

What are your thoughts? — Tate

I will leave the question open for now. It is a guiding question. One might expect, given the death of God, that religion would be rejected.

I am asking you and anyone else who might be reading. — Fooloso4

It's the eternal return.

I will leave the question open for now. It is a guiding question. One might expect, given the death of God, that religion would be rejected. — Fooloso4

The death of God is an historical event.

Plato's “I went down yesterday to the Piraeus..." — Amity

Good point! Going up and down, high and low, the theme reverberates in both Plato and Nietzsche.

The death of God is an historical event. — Tate

What is the role of religion without God?

I'm sure you don't think Zarathustra comes down the mountain to teach atheism. That would be contrary to the text.

Good point! — Fooloso4

Yay, I'm cooking with gas :fire:
*keeping an eye on energy consumption and cost*

The death of God is an historical event.
— Tate

What is the role of religion without God? — Fooloso4

I don't see where that question is coming from. The death of God is an historical event. It's not a doctrine Nietzsche is pushing.

So bless me now, you quiet eye that can look upon even an all too great happiness without envy!
Bless the cup that wants to flow over, such that water flows golden from it and everywhere carries the reflection of your bliss! — TSZ

Z is praying to the Sun, his spiritual 'God'.
He wants nature's supernatural blessing so that he can be a 'disciple' and carry the word, in all its shining glory. Or something.

Behold! This cup wants to become empty again, and Zarathustra wants to become human again.”
– Thus began Zarathustra’s going under — TSZ

Like the son/Sun of 'God', Jesus the man, he is part of a Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit ?
3 in One? Or One in Three?
Come down to Earth, to enlighten but is there also a devil to deal with?

This is intriguing me more than I thought it would.

I have read and recommend both. (See, I am not against secondary sources) You might recognize his name from his commentaries on Plato. — Fooloso4

:smile:
BTW, I am not looking at secondary sources as I make my way through this.
I'm enjoying it as a newcomer. Like reading the Short Stories but I don't need to guess the author :wink:
I don't even want to know about the author.
This is a first for me.
Not looking things up.

I'm sure you don't think Zarathustra comes down the mountain to teach atheism. — Tate

He comes to teach the overman.

He comes to teach the overman. — Fooloso4

Right. :blush: :up:

I don't see where that question is coming from. The death of God is an historical event. It's not a doctrine Nietzsche is pushing. — Tate

An event the (good) news of which the people had either not heard or did not believe.

Quotations are from the Cambridge edition.

“Could it be possible! This old saint in his woods has not yet heard the news that
God is dead!” – [Prologue 2, page 5]

When Zarathustra had spoken these words he looked again at the people and fell silent. “There they stand,” he said to his heart, “they laugh, they do not understand me, I am not the mouth for these ears.
Must one first smash their ears so that they learn to hear with their eyes? Must one rattle like kettle drums and penitence preachers? Or do they believe only a stutterer? (Prologue 5, page 9)

The stutterer likely refers to Paul. The need to smash their ears suggests that they do not believe God is dead.

Like the son/Sun of 'God', Jesus the man, he is part of a Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit ? — Amity

Another spoiler: In Christianity God must become man. For Nietzsche man must become a god.

Yes. Atheists don't say, "God is dead.". They say, "There has never been a god."

That statement expresses a cultural truth post Enlightenment. There's no need to campaign for atheism because it already won.

I'll not debate this with you. You're certainly welcome to your own interpretation.

Shall we move on?

Another spoiler: In Christianity God must become man. For Nietzsche man must become a god. — Fooloso4

It doesn't spoil if it helps me understand where I'm at with my questioning if that makes sense.
So, anything you got is more than :100: welcome!

In the second section, we meet the famous saint. The two have crossed paths before. The theme of going up and coming down recurs. The saint has had his own travels:. He's gone into the forest to escape men because he loved them too well. Was he gay?

Now he only loves his perfect God.

"Then thou carriedst thine ashes into the mountains: wilt thou now carry thy fire into the valleys? Fearest thou not the incendiary's doom?

Yea, I recognise Zarathustra. Pure is his eye, and no loathing lurketh about his mouth. Goeth he not along like a dancer?

Altered is Zarathustra; a child hath Zarathustra become; an awakened one is Zarathustra: what wilt thou do in the land of the sleepers?

As in the sea hast thou lived in solitude, and it hath borne thee up. Alas, wilt thou now go ashore? Alas, wilt thou again drag thy body thyself?"

Zarathustra answered: "I love mankind."

​"Why," said the saint, "did I go into the forest and the desert? Was it not because I loved men far too well?

Now I love God: men, I do not love. Man is a thing too imperfect for me. Love to man would be fatal to me."

Shall we move on? — Tate

More of from what? The disagreement you posit and attribute to me?

God is dead means several different tbut related hings for Nietzsche.

Ok. The saint might be a symbol for clergymen in general. Off to themselves, they aren't aware of what's been happening in the world, that is, that the Enlightenment has come and gone. God has become a fairy tale.

If you only refer to the Cambridge book pages, I have difficulty finding the quotes in the Cambridge pdf.
I'm using the pdf, so I've been referencing that.

He's gone into the forest to escape men because he loved them too well. Was he gay? — Tate

Zarathustra answered: “I love mankind."
“Why,” asked the saint, “did I go into the woods and the wilderness in the first place? Was it not because I loved mankind all too much?
Now I love God:human beings I do not love. Human beings are too
imperfect a thing for me. Love for human beings would kill me.”

As the footnote indicates:
“Ich liebe die Menschen” means literally “I love human beings."

The theme of going up and coming down recurs. — Tate

And, as we will see with the tightrope walker, crossing.

OK. I think I'll leave this discussion now.
It's becoming a nightmare to follow.

In the second section, — Tate

What page, where?

If you only refer to the Cambridge book pages, I have difficulty finding the quotes in the Cambridge pdf.
Could we stick to one or the other; or do both? — Amity

The problem is different members use different translations.

Prologue 2, page 5

means the section of the prologue that is numbered 2, which is page 5 of the Cambridge translation.

OK. Got that.
I'll just have to check the bottom of the pdf pages for the actual book page in the translation we're using.

The saint might be a symbol for clergymen in general. — Tate

More generally, those who by turning to something higher they call God, turn away from man. The saint's love/hatred of man means he wants nothing to do with the clergy or even the monastery.

they aren't aware of what's been happening in the world, that is, that the Enlightenment has come and gone. — Tate

There were many who in Nietzsche's time and in ours who are well aware of the Enlightenment who stil hold to a belief in God.

In the second section,
— Tate

What page, where? — Amity

OK. Found it. You're using this translation.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1998/1998-h/1998-h.htm#link2H_4_0004

We can copy this freely, I'm going to close some of the gaps:

2.
Zarathustra went down the mountain alone, no one meeting him. When he entered the forest, however, there suddenly stood before him an old man, who had left his holy cot to seek roots.

And thus spake the old man to Zarathustra:

“No stranger to me is this wanderer: many years ago passed he by. Zarathustra he was called; but he hath altered.
Then thou carriedst thine ashes into the mountains: wilt thou now carry thy fire into the valleys? Fearest thou not the incendiary’s doom?
Yea, I recognise Zarathustra. Pure is his eye, and no loathing lurketh about his mouth. Goeth he not along like a dancer?
Altered is Zarathustra; a child hath Zarathustra become; an awakened one is Zarathustra: what wilt thou do in the land of the sleepers?
As in the sea hast thou lived in solitude, and it hath borne thee up. Alas, wilt thou now go ashore? Alas, wilt thou again drag thy body thyself?”

Zarathustra answered: “I love mankind.”

“Why,” said the saint, “did I go into the forest and the desert? Was it not because I loved men far too well?
Now I love God: men, I do not love. Man is a thing too imperfect for me. Love to man would be fatal to me.”

Zarathustra answered: “What spake I of love! I am bringing gifts unto men.”

“Give them nothing,” said the saint. “Take rather part of their load, and carry it along with them—that will be most agreeable unto them: if only it be agreeable unto thee!
If, however, thou wilt give unto them, give them no more than an alms, and let them also beg for it!”

“No,” replied Zarathustra, “I give no alms. I am not poor enough for that.”

The saint laughed at Zarathustra, and spake thus: “Then see to it that they accept thy treasures! They are distrustful of anchorites, and do not believe that we come with gifts.
The fall of our footsteps ringeth too hollow through their streets. And just as at night, when they are in bed and hear a man abroad long before sunrise, so they ask themselves concerning us: Where goeth the thief?
Go not to men, but stay in the forest! Go rather to the animals! Why not be like me—a bear amongst bears, a bird amongst birds?”

“And what doeth the saint in the forest?” asked Zarathustra.

The saint answered: “I make hymns and sing them; and in making hymns I laugh and weep and mumble: thus do I praise God.
With singing, weeping, laughing, and mumbling do I praise the God who is my God. But what dost thou bring us as a gift?”

When Zarathustra had heard these words, he bowed to the saint and said: “What should I have to give thee! Let me rather hurry hence lest I take aught away from thee!”—And thus they parted from one another, the old man and Zarathustra, laughing like schoolboys.

When Zarathustra was alone, however, he said to his heart: “Could it be possible! This old saint in the forest hath not yet heard of it, that GOD IS DEAD!”
— TSZ - Gutenberg Thomas Common trans.

And here we have an Enlightenment theme:

The saint says:

"Go not to men, but stay in the forest! Go rather to the animals! Why not be like me—a bear amongst bears, a bird amongst birds?"

During the Enlightenment, human reason was lauded as if it had finally triumphed over the darkness of superstition.

Then came Darwin to challenge this idea. There's nothing special about humans. We are just animals among other animals.

There were many who in Nietzsche's time and in ours who are well aware of the Enlightenment who stil hold to a belief in God. — Fooloso4

Sure. It's the fallout from the death of God that Nietzsche addresses, though.