• Darkneos
    689
    If we should not be afraid of/averse to non-existence because we cannot be deprived of something when we don't exist, we should also not chase/worship the void, since the absence of suffering has no value for an inexistent being. You're not going to be in some better/more satisfied state due to the lack of harms. In view of this, non-existence has no value/disvalue. What one does with their life, therefore, becomes a highly individualised affair that differs from person-to-person and what action/emotion brings them happiness when they exist. Lastly, I wouldn't say there's something "wrong" with you. I am not a fan of blind optimism. All I would say is that, considering that value only lies in existence, I think that it can be rational to try our best to discover a source of joy that can provide us happiness for as long as possible instead of seeking cessation which is necessarily limited in its capacity to provide fulfilment.DA671

    Value may only lie in existence, yes, so that is why I can see value in not having to perform the song and dance anymore. The same goes for the absence of suffering, your logic doesn't really follow for not chasing the void as the entire point is the end, the cessation of it all. Non existence has greater value as people view the end goal of utter oblivion to be preferable to anything life can offer.
  • Darkneos
    689
    You do enjoy life. Now it may not be roses and "the best", but you do, because you live. You actually do enjoy to some extent talking to other people. Making your voice known. People who really don't enjoy life at all don't talk. They don't write. They hate and despise everything about their very existence. You would loath eating, breathing, and doing anything. You obviously do not.

    So no, you don't prefer death to living. You still live. You still eat. You still interact. Perhaps you wish life were better than it is. Perhaps you want peace and a release from pain, and confuse that for a desire for death. Many people do. But if you're talking about death as it is, an unromantic end that you won't get any feelings about or be around to experience, no you don't.
    Philosophim

    That would be wrong to say. I talk to others because, well what else is there? I mentioned the goal was to make life tolerable until the end. Just because I talk to people doesn't mean I enjoy it, I don't hate it either.

    I do prefer death to living, to not have to do any of this anymore, but I must live as I have no other option at the moment.

    It's like you read nothing I said.
  • Darkneos
    689
    Because getting there, as I already stated, is hard and unreliable as things stand and a failure will result in further attempts to prevent me from it (institutionalized, etc).

    People underestimate just how strong the survival drive is and that it's not easy to overcome.
  • Existential Hope
    789
    Some people might indeed prefer the void (especially when they cannot find any other source of value). However, this doesn't apply to all individuals. I wouldn't say that you are somehow inherently wrong to prefer the void (if that was the case, I would not have been in favour of a right to a dignified exit). But this doesn't affect my logic that choosing nothingness is just as meaningful/pointless as seeking happiness and valuing life is. Many people believe that the precious joys of life (that come from things such as worthwhile bonds with loved ones and gaining knowledge) are worth cherishing instead of focusing on a valueless void. However, if one tragically fails to find any great fountain of fulfilment, then forcing them to live by calling them irrational is wrong, I believe. Uncritically worshipping life can cause more harm than good. The survival instinct is still a part of us and can even help save us in times of need. If there is a will to live that prevents one from ending everything no matter how much they want to, there might also be a will to not exist that would obstruct people's ability to find happiness and a reason to keep living even if they do everything in their power to find it. I don't think that either of these biological processes are intrinsically irrational. At the same time, it's also true that our strong aversion to non-existence coupled with the fear of extreme suffering can force us to keep living a life we really don't want to. In such cases, provided nothing else can be done, I think that a peaceful way to choose the exit door should be available.
  • Darkneos
    689
    So after all, even for you life is preferable to death. Which is normal, after millions or billions of years of evolution have geared our motivations toward survival.

    I think death becomes preferable to life when suffering exceeds happiness so much that it beats the survival drive. If the survival drive is strong as usual, this must be a singularly terrible situation but unfortunately it can happen too.
    litewave

    Well no it's not. I wouldn't call the survival drive "me" it's just an obstacle that I can't surmount. Life is not preferable to me, however that doesn't mean my continued existence is a testament to preferring life.
  • Darkneos
    689
    But this doesn't affect my logic that choosing nothingness is just as meaningful/pointless as seeking happiness and valuing life is. Many people believe that the precious joys of life are worth cherishing instead of focusing on a valueless void.DA671

    It does though. My main point about the good things in life is that you don't need any of that in death so they aren't reasons to really stick around. In short if you don't HAVE to live then there is no reason to do so. Such good things make life tolerable and seeking them out only makes sense if one HAS to live, which seems to be my case since seeking the end is inordinately difficult. Not only because society pretty much forbids it but apparently a lot of suicide attempts end in failure and leave you in a worse off state, not really how I prefer to spend my remaining days...locked in a hospital with people trying to "fix" me.

    I guess people only rationalize living by stating "precious joys are worth cherishing" is due to death anxiety, as Ernest Becker put it. We tend to fear death and much of our lives are ruled by this fact, at least according to him.
  • Existential Hope
    789
    I know that nobody loses something when they don't exist. However, by the same token, nobody feels satisfied/fulfiled when they don't exist either. This is why I think that there is no absolute reason for everyone to either keep living or to try to end everything. If life has nothing worthwhile left, then the only source of comfort becomes cessation—and I am not going to call you irrational for thinking that. But for a lot of people, the positives of life, such as love and beauty, are of greater value, which is why they don't have a reason to simply stop everything. The negatives may degrade the value of the positives, but they don't nullify them entirely for all individuals. In short, it does because we have a reason to gain the goods when we exist (which is the only place where value can exist). Of course, there is no objective reason for us to either continue on or to annihilate everything. But, from the point of view of sentient beings who necessarily seek positives and avoid negatives, the availability of a higher good can give one a reason to not give up.

    It's not always about rationalisation; it's about the variegated nature of preferences and perspectives. I am aware of Becker's ideas. Part of the reason why people fear death is because they appreciate the goods of life. These goods could be complex, such as the relationships one has and could lose, to more basic ones, such as death resulting in some sort of horrible black void that takes away the positive state of we were in. I do think that there is a sort of paternalism when it comes to giving people the right to a graceful exit. Personally, I don't think that one's love for life should justify making someone else endure a valueless existence. Toxic positivity is a significant problem.
  • Philosophim
    2.2k
    That would be wrong to say. I talk to others because, well what else is there? I mentioned the goal was to make life tolerable until the end. Just because I talk to people doesn't mean I enjoy it, I don't hate it either.

    I do prefer death to living, to not have to do any of this anymore, but I must live as I have no other option at the moment.

    It's like you read nothing I said.
    Darkneos

    Ridiculous. This is a philosophy forum. Logically, you live because you choose to live. If you truly preferred death more, you would die. If you're interested in a "woe is me" or "life is pain" conversation, this isn't the place.

    Further, I've had times in my life where pain and emotional despair was unbearable. I've felt the urge to suicide before. But I made the choice to continue to live. That logically means I preferred life to death, despite all the nearly unbearable misery. What a pathetic human being I would have been to whine to others that I preferred death as I continually chose to live again and again.

    You don't get to choose life, then say you prefer death. That's illogical. That's just whining about life. When this clear logical discrepancy is pointed out you whine some more. No wonder people tell you to go to therapy. You should listen to them. Your life sucks, so do something about it and improve it.
  • Existential Hope
    789
    I think that their point is that they do prefer non-existence but they are not a huge fan of the road that leads there. In other words, they find life to be better than an overwhelmingly negative end, but not necessarily more desirable than one that would most probably be peaceful. And then one also has to think about societal expectations. I am not saying that annihilation is always better. I sincerely hope that they can find the comfort they seek.
  • Existential Hope
    789
    Also, I am glad that you were able to hold on despite going through terrible harms. May you have a wonderful day/night ahead!
  • unenlightened
    8.8k
    So much for the views of the living. But now listen to the dead.

    Just a little nervous from the fall, chaps.
  • skyblack
    545
    A "view",

    is usually a flowering of..well.. a view. Indicating some sort of understanding of the entire picture. Taking into account all sides of the story. Usually such a view isn't a reaction or a grasping of any one side.

    One may start by inquiring what is this thing we call living. As if you have choice, HA. Freakin' mechanical robots. In any case, it seems that's where the inquiry begins.
  • Philosophim
    2.2k
    I think that their point is that they do prefer non-existence but they are not a huge fan of the road that leads there. In other words, the find life to be better than an overwhelmingly negative end, but not necessarily more desirable than one that would most probably be peaceful.DA671

    The OP is confused. There is no peace in death. There is nothing. What the OP wants is peace in life. To get to a moment where they feel peace. You have to live to feel peace. They would prefer a life where they feel peace then a life where they feel pain. Death does not give peace. It gives nothing. There is no chance to find peace. There is no beating the pain. If you die in pain, its the last thing you will ever feel.

    To believe that absence of your existence can be preferable to pain is true in some circumstances. Have all of your limbs cut off, your eyes blown out, your brain half blown to bits and you're surviving purely by modern science? Yeah, pull that plug. It does not sound like those are the circumstances of the OP. It sounds like someone who is in pain, and instead of dealing with that pain, looks to invent some fantasy to avoid the work needed to make the pain go away. The OP needs to deal with their pain. They can one day find peace if they work for it. They will not if they keep sticking to this romantic fantasy of death.
  • skyblack
    545
    Adding to my previous post:

    "Death" is the most peaceful experience one can experience while "living". Had it not been so, the body won't be programmed to slip into it every night. Surely more or less we understand biological death. But have we understood...for convenience, let's call it psychological death. Have we even asked such a question. Have we questioned if death and life are co-existent. Maybe two sides of the same coin.

    But how can you question, if you lack the backbone needed to question your bias towards this thing you call living. Wherein, like some form of the Stockholm syndrome, you have fallen in love with your limitations, begging, beseeching life, to give you one more ounce of what you call "fun"/pleasure. Therefore to you, death is a terrible thing. A thing of fear and oblivion. So, you aren't really living life....but rather your fear. You are corrupted.

    Death is incorruptible.
  • skyblack
    545
    You can't have a "discussion" with death! Ha
  • Pie
    1k
    The OP is confused. There is no peace in death. There is nothing. What the OP wants is peace in life.Philosophim

    What you say has merit, but consider this edge case :

    A man will be tortured for hours for information he does not have. He will then be killed. Is it reasonable for him to grab at a means to end his consciousness, if he knows all this with certainty ?

    Or consider, more typically, a person aware that they are sinking into dementia...Are there states worse than death ? So that death is to be sought ? My position is yes.
  • Joshs
    5.2k
    The OP is confused. There is no peace in death. There is nothing. What the OP wants is peace in life. To get to a moment where they feel peace. You have to live to feel peace. They would prefer a life where they feel peace then a life where they feel pain. Death does not give peace. It gives nothing. There is no chance to find peace.Philosophim

    I agree with this , and would add that the fantasy of peace in life that is the OP’s longing for ‘death’ is , like all experiences of peace or relief, a contrast or transition from a prior state. No state of mind or mood sustains itself in perpetuity because experiences are relational and contingent. An experience of peace will inevitably be followed by a new experience that addresses and transforms it. Peace can become trepidation, struggle, mourning , elation. More importantly, these transitions in attitude and mood change US. In a sense , with every shift in mood and outlook , the particular self that we are are at any given time is born of a previous self and dies as it is replaced by a new self. Even in just longing for and fantasizing about the ‘peace of death’ , we are briefly achieving this feeling of peace. The old ‘we’ who was struggling has died and briefly become the new ‘we’ who is at peace. Soon this new ‘we’ will pass over into yet another ‘we’ who is beset with a fresh situation and attitude. This is all that death will ever give you. It is not death that is eternal but the contingency of desire.
  • Philosophim
    2.2k
    What you say has merit, but consider this edge case :

    A man will be tortured for hours for information he does not have. He will then be killed. Is it reasonable for him to grab at a means to end his consciousness, if he knows all this with certainty ?

    Or consider, more typically, a person aware that they are sinking into dementia...Are there states worse than death ? So that death is to be sought ? My position is yes.
    Pie

    I agree with you. But this is not the OP's case.
  • Amity
    4.6k
    The OP is confused.Philosophim

    Are you sure about that?

    The OP needs to deal with their pain. They can one day find peace if they work for it.Philosophim

    Are you sure about that?

    The issue has been 'worked' on before by Darkneos:

    That's not to say it's not worthwhile discussing again. I did that!
    Different time, different posters; pretty much same arguments, assumptions and responses.

    However, it makes me question the intention of the OP, rightly or wrongly.

    I was wondering if anyone else thinks similarly or if they have a counter to what I've mentioned. I realize I'm alone, but also I have a hard time discussing this anywhere else because people immediately say you need therapy. I consider that a dodge to my stance on this and a symptom of society's collective fear around death, I mean we can't even talk about it without people thinking there is something "Wrong" with you.Darkneos
    [ emphasis added]

    Worth considering?
    There seems to be an appeal to fellow would-be suicides...
    Join the club. Us against the rest of the world.
    Darkneos seems to have been doing this for years. Going from forum to forum.
    Fishing.

    How many pages will this run to...?
    We love to hear ourselves talk, don't we?
  • skyblack
    545
    To continue from previous:

    So, death, it seems, in its correct context, is an ending. An ending to your fears, your pettiness, your jealousies, your beseeching, your pretenses your games, your neuroticism....ya know , don't you? After all these, and more, is what you call living. This "ending" has nothing to do with your biological continuity or dis-continuity. Clearly.
  • 180 Proof
    14.1k

    Heroin ... because the grass on the other side of the abyss always seems greener ...
    Choose life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose a washing machine, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose a three-piece suit on hire purchase in a range of fucking fabrics. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing gameshows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pissing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked-up brats you spawned to replace yourselves. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? — Renton, Trainspotting
    :yawn:

    OR

    One can choose (e.g.) Epicurus & Lucretius, Montaigne & Spinoza, Zapffe & Camus, Buber & Beckett, Clément Rosset & James Baldwin, Philippa Foot & Martha Nussbaum, Albert Murray & George Steiner ... :fire:

    I tend to view death as preferable to life
    — Darkneos

    ...perhaps [because] you are doing it wrong?
    Banno
    :lol: :up:
  • Mikie
    6.2k
    Because getting there, as I already stated, is hard and unreliable as things standDarkneos

    It’s hard and unreliable to kill yourself? I really can’t see how that’s true, but OK.

    As for the survival instinct — yes, true. But supposedly you long for death. If the drive to continue living is greater— then you really don’t want it. If you did you’d be dead already— provided that there are means to do so and, as I already mentioned, there are plenty of ways to do so.

    People who consider suicide very often don’t truly want to die — they’re either without meaning and joy or are clinically depressed.

    Do you consider yourself depressed? It sounds that way to me. In which case: there are ways out.
  • Tom Storm
    8.4k
    The OP is confused. There is no peace in death. There is nothing. What the OP wants is peace in life. To get to a moment where they feel peace. You have to live to feel peace. They would prefer a life where they feel peace then a life where they feel pain. Death does not give peace.Philosophim

    I hear you, but for me this is being a bit too concrete or literal. Death is often described as the end of suffering - which technically it is likely to be (unless you think there is a judgement coming after). Therefore death brings 'peace' in as much is it brings non suffering or 'nothingness'. From the perspective of a suffering life, death holds the appeal of relief or a metaphorically peaceful alternative - you may not be there to experience it, but you won't be there to experience ongoing suffering either.
  • skyblack
    545
    If one has followed the inquiry thus far and is seeing the true context of death as simplyan ending, which it is, which you wish to postpone for as long as you can since you lack a backbone,

    then one puts a reasonable question, if i know there is biological death always lurking around the corner and all your BS is gonna leave you with nothing but sh## in your hands, then why doesn't the human end (psychological death) its weasel-ly-ness. Right.

    To end it now! Because that's what biological death will do/does. You won't have a chance to negotiate/weasel out of, as much as want to. So the question then becomes, what is it to die. For example, to all your fears, to your prejudices, to your nonsense.
  • TiredThinker
    819
    Life isn't so bad without knowledge of anything afterwards. Find simple passions. Dopamine is harder to feel with age, but I am hopeful age research will someday help us feel like our best selves again before sleep and back issues were a thing.
  • Darkneos
    689
    It's not always about rationalisation; it's about the variegated nature of preferences and perspectives. I am aware of Becker's ideas. Part of the reason why people fear death is because they appreciate the goods of life. These goods could be complex, such as the relationships one has and could lose, to more basic ones, such as death resulting in some sort of horrible black void that takes away the positive state of we were in. I do think that there is a sort of paternalism when it comes to giving people the right to a graceful exit. Personally, I don't think that one's love for life should justify making someone else endure a valueless existence. Toxic positivity is a significant problem.DA671

    I think you're missing the point. In death there is no need for such things, it all ends. So there's no need to seek the good stuff. They don't fear death because of the goods of life, they fear the end when really they should not for it can be pretty great.
  • Darkneos
    689
    The OP is confused. There is no peace in death. There is nothing. What the OP wants is peace in life. To get to a moment where they feel peace. You have to live to feel peace. They would prefer a life where they feel peace then a life where they feel pain. Death does not give peace. It gives nothing. There is no chance to find peace. There is no beating the pain. If you die in pain, its the last thing you will ever feel.

    To believe that absence of your existence can be preferable to pain is true in some circumstances. Have all of your limbs cut off, your eyes blown out, your brain half blown to bits and you're surviving purely by modern science? Yeah, pull that plug. It does not sound like those are the circumstances of the OP. It sounds like someone who is in pain, and instead of dealing with that pain, looks to invent some fantasy to avoid the work needed to make the pain go away. The OP needs to deal with their pain. They can one day find peace if they work for it. They will not if they keep sticking to this romantic fantasy of death.
    Philosophim

    Ahh, again you misunderstand. This has nothing to do with peace in life, it's about the cessation of all things. Death does afford a peace, in a sense, even if you can't feel it. You can rest knowing the pain will pass and you won't have to do anything anymore. I think you are giving death less than it is.

    Why deal with one's pain when they can just quit? You're still missing the point here trying to find something "Wrong" and that's the mistake you make as much as anyone else does. Nothing in life IMO is worth working for when one doesn't have to live. If society had a different mind they'd see that and allow people to exit if they choose.

    You still aren't getting it.
  • Darkneos
    689
    It’s hard and unreliable to kill yourself? I really can’t see how that’s true, but OK.

    As for the survival instinct — yes, true. But supposedly you long for death. If the drive to continue living is greater— then you really don’t want it. If you did you’d be dead already— provided that there are means to do so and, as I already mentioned, there are plenty of ways to do so.

    People who consider suicide very often don’t truly want to die — they’re either without meaning and joy or are clinically depressed.

    Do you consider yourself depressed? It sounds that way to me. In which case: there are ways out.
    Xtrix

    Again making the mistake in thinking there is something wrong.

    I've done the research and found out most suicide attempts end in failure, that there really isn't a "surefire way" to do it and those who survive end up in worse shape than before. You'd think it'd be easy and I do too. Trust me when I say I've googled painless ways to die, but you have to wade through a lot of the "therapy" nonsense.
  • Jack Cummins
    5.1k

    I am glad to see you back on site because I after reading your posts about death and you not being on the site for a long time I had worried that you had killed yourself. The reason why I say I was worried is because I do see suicide as being about the worst way to die. I do have thoughts of it at times, mainly when I feel that I have more stress than I can cope with, but I am glad that I have never given into such thoughts. I have known people who have killed themselves, often in extreme situations of panic and despair.

    Death is probably the end, and I say that because I used to believe in life after death but, now, see it as unlikely. Life does seem harsh at times and it seems that some people have harder lives than others. The things which I think would just be unbearable are having to sleep rough on the streets or becoming blind. I don't know what your own reason for wishing to die is but everyone will die at some point.

    Generally, I wish to make the best of what happens and cope with whatever happens to the best of my abilities. I think that I would be too afraid to kill myself whatever situation I was in. Even though I don't fear hell like when I was a teenager I know of people who have tried to kill themselves and ended up with all sorts of injuries, including not being able to walk.
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