• DA671
    608
    It's evidently difficult for some people (of a pessimistic disposition) to understand that something cannot be forced if it doesn't go against the existing interests of a being. And if it can be, then all the good in one's life may as well be considered an invaluable gift that one can be grateful to have. After all, cherishing happiness is not a matter of mere compliance. If one thinks that having true joy is simply a matter of "not minding something" instead of being genuinely happy for possessing that good, then perhaps all that does is demonstrate the limitations of their worldview. It's great to know that you like working. I hope that you can continue to find more than enough meaning in life and that others are also inspired by you. May you have a good day!
  • NOS4A2
    6k


    No such situation was forced upon me. I don’t think remaining in the womb is a preferable existence.
  • schopenhauer1
    7.3k

    The alternative is no you at all. It’s called states of affairs. I can talk about those as conditionals and counterfactuals. A child could be born (forced) or not (not forced). Oh dear how I broke all time, logic, and proportion, oh my!

    For NOS, if it was okay to be born, and have the conditions of life foisted on you, then some people want healthcare foisted on others. If a majority vote it in a democracy, foisting can become legitimate governance. Then it’s about at what level is healthcare programs appropriate. Is it violating a right? So is any governance some would say. Where’s the line?
  • Isaac
    8k
    Oh dear how I broke all time, logic, and proportion, oh my!schopenhauer1

    I would boast about it, but if you're impressed...
  • schopenhauer1
    7.3k

    I don’t want this condition..is not breaking any grammar rules. The condition being necessary makes it all the more pertinent to the argument. You do X then Y will always happen. It is a state of affairs.
  • Isaac
    8k
    I don’t want this condition..is not breaking any grammar rules.schopenhauer1

    No. You can whinge about it all you like. Saying it was forced upon you, is nonsense. There's no 'you' without it. The trouble with all your arguments is that you just can't let go of the drive to blame someone. someone did this to you. But no-one did this to you other than you. There was no you, then there was, and one of the conditions of being you is that you must either do what it takes to survive or else die. Since there was no you before then (nor could there even possibly be) no-one 'did' anything to you.
  • schopenhauer1
    7.3k
    Since there was no you before then (nor could there even possibly be) no-one 'did' anything to you.Isaac

    So baby born into lava pit. No one “did” anything. Lava pit is a condition.

    And your problem with all your arguments is you don’t recognize de facto conditions as still forced conditions.
  • Isaac
    8k
    So baby born into lava pit.schopenhauer1

    Yeah. Lava pits are dangerous and babies need not be born into them. Someone did that to the baby the moment that baby was born (or conceived even). It's not a necessary part of being them that they drop into a lava pit. It is a necessary part of being you that you either do what it takes to survive or you die.
  • schopenhauer1
    7.3k
    Yeah. Lava pits are dangerous and babies need not be born into them.Isaac

    Glad we are on the same page there.

    Someone did that to the baby the moment that baby was born (or conceived even).Isaac

    That’s also applied to any necessary condition of life.

    It is a necessary part of being you that you either do what it takes to survive or you die.Isaac

    And a conditions necessity doesn’t make it any different than the lava pit scenario, when it comes to impositions.
  • Isaac
    8k
    And your problem with all your arguments is you don’t recognize de facto conditions as still forced conditions.schopenhauer1

    a conditions necessity doesn’t make it any different than the lava pit scenario, when it comes to impositions.schopenhauer1

    I'm quite happy to admit they're forced too. But not on you. There's no 'you' without them.

    It's the difference between a fireman complaining about long working hours and a fireman complaining about fighting fires. A fireman need not work long hours, but a fireman just ceases to be a fireman unless they fight fires.
  • baker
    4.8k
    All of which I learned from individuals.

    I have never met the collective, let alone learned anything from it.
    NOS4A2

    Nor has anyone else. But the things you've learned from those individuals can only work because there is the assumption that those things work interpersonally, within a social group, as opposed to idiosyncratically, as things that would work only between yourself and the person you learned it from.
  • schopenhauer1
    7.3k
    It's the difference between a fireman complaining about long working hours and a fireman complaining about fighting fires. A fireman need not work long hours, but a fireman just ceases to be a fireman unless they fight fires.Isaac

    I don't see the distinction as valuable. If you had to fight fires for the rest of your life and could not escape unless you killed yourself, you can complain legitimately, even if that means there wouldn't be a "you" without fighting fires. If someone says.. "Boy, I hate this feature that life is about that I find myself having to encounter".. That is a legitimate complaint (e.g. people inevitably get sick, die, encounter negative things, etc.).
  • Isaac
    8k


    Your complaint isn't the illegitimate part. Your blame is.

    No one did this to you.

    Being you requires that you survive or die. So it's impossible for someone to impose that situation on you. It what being you consists of.

    You can whinge like a five year old about it. Fucking annoying, but not incoherent.

    Saying someone did it to you is equally annoying, but additionally incoherent.
  • schopenhauer1
    7.3k
    Being you requires that you survive or die. So it's impossible for someone to impose that situation on you. It what being you consists of.Isaac

    Procreation is not an event? Being born is not a state of affairs caused by an act previously? Interesting. Didn't know that.

    You can whinge like a five year old about it. Fucking annoying, but not incoherent.Isaac

    But this is the canard of those who impose. I can call anything you say, do, and believe annoying as fuck and even throw in a lot of :roll: :roll: :roll: , so? These kind of not-so-subtle ad homs don't do much and are annoying as fuck.. Not unpredictable though.

    Saying someone did it to you is equally annoying, but additionally incoherent.Isaac

    So like anything nuanced, it's not really that kind of complaint, how you phrase it. Rather the project of procreation itself is being impugned, and not trying to "pin" the practice on this or that set of people for not sufficiently understanding the philosophy or embracing it. I am not here to condemn the people, just question the practice and philosophy that is seemingly "unquestionable" for many folks and who get riled up in any philosophical attempt to engage it because they can't cope with differences, which is real fucking annoying sometimes.
  • Isaac
    8k
    Procreation is not an event? Being born is not a state of affairs caused by an act previously?schopenhauer1

    Both created you, of necessity. Neither were done to you.

    I am not here to condemn the people, just the question the practice and philosophyschopenhauer1

    A claim which is performatively contradicted by your grammar...which was the point of my comment.

    As to the general philosophy, I've already presented counterarguments on several occasions. I've no intention of repeating them to the disinterested.
  • schopenhauer1
    7.3k
    As to the general philosophy, I've already presented counterarguments on several occasions. I've no intention of repeating them to the disinterested.Isaac

    And I've argued and counterargued back, so? These are the kind of statements that can be said on both sides against the opposing view.

    Both created you, of necessity. Neither were done to you.Isaac

    What? Procreation takes the will and act of others...The state of affairs of being procreated is a state of affairs of X condition. You can mince words all you like, that is all I need to make the case. Everything else is rhetorical nonsense you are trying to make a case OUT OF but for which none exists.
  • baker
    4.8k
    Both created you, of necessity. Neither were done to you.Isaac

    Exactly.

    We'd have to venture into a more "exotic cosmogony" in order to be able to coherently claim that the injustice of birth is done _to_ someone.

    An "exotic cosmogony" like the one where living beings happily exist as "disembodied souls", but who can be embodied against their will by the act of someone else.
  • schopenhauer1
    7.3k

    Twisting of how language works...

    Conditions X are a necessity of Y state of affairs.

    Someone brought about Y state of affairs for someone else, which entails X.

    Someone could NOT bring about Y state of affairs for someone else, which entails X.

    Being born (Y) ALWAYS entails X (working in some manner to survive). One doesn't just "come into existence" without someone else making this happen. Some act had to be done previously.. decided upon or allowed to happen, etc. THIS situation is how I am using "forced". It is obvious how it is used. I shouldn't have to explain it like this, but since cases are being made from nothing, I'll do it to appease my pedantic interlocutors (even though they know themselves how I am using it).
  • Isaac
    8k
    We'd have to venture into a more "exotic cosmogony" in order to be able to coherently claim that the injustice of birth is done _to_ someone.

    An "exotic cosmogony" like the one where living beings happily exist as "disembodied souls", but who can be embodied against their will by the act of someone else.
    baker

    Yeah. The interesting question then is whether (and why) those 'disembodied souls' have any criteria necessary to their existence. I mean, it seems pretty implausible to me that even 'disembodied souls' could exist without any necessary properties.

    I fear even if such entities existed, then @schopenhauer1 would still be whining to the other 'disembodied souls' about being 'forced' to maintain those properties.

    Any system at all requires that it works against entropy to exist. So disembodied souls would be subject to no less a requirement.
  • Isaac
    8k
    Someone brought about Y state of affairs for someone else, which entails X.

    Someone could NOT bring about Y state of affairs for someone else, which entails X.
    schopenhauer1

    None of that makes sense. The state of affairs you're talking about are a necessity for the 'someone else'. So your second statement is absolutely, unarguably false.

    One doesn't just "come into existence" without someone else making this happen.schopenhauer1

    One doesn't 'come into existence' at all. It's not a thing that 'one' can do because 'one' has to exist first. Before.
  • schopenhauer1
    7.3k
    None of that makes sense. The state of affairs you're talking about are a necessity for the 'someone else'. So your second statement is absolutely, unarguably false.Isaac

    Maybe you are misunderstanding it? It is meant that there is a counterfactual that COULD have happened (Someone could NOT bring about Y state of affairs for someone else, which entails X).

    One doesn't 'come into existence' at all. It's not a thing that 'one' can do because 'one' has to exist first. Before.Isaac

    Weird metaphysics. A "person" at some point X becomes a person (though this is often debated as "when"). You disagree?
  • Isaac
    8k
    is meant that there is a counterfactual that COULD have happened (Someone could NOT bring about Y state of affairs for someone else, which entails X).schopenhauer1

    It couldn't have happened. It's impossible.

    One could (or could not) have created a person.

    One could not do (or not do) anything to a person or on behalf of a person at all because there was no person to act upon until the act of creation was over. Ergo, the act of creation cannot be done to, or for, the person thereby created. It breaks normal causality.

    A "person" at some point X becomes a person (though this is often debated as "when"). You disagree?schopenhauer1

    Yes. Obviously. A person cannot become a person. They already are one. An embryo becomes a person, or a gamete does, or a 'disembodied soul' does, depending on your beliefs.

    But...this is the important bit...no one imposes the necessary conditions of existence even on those. An embryo has necessary conditions of existence. A gamete cell has necessary conditions of existence. A disembodied soul has necessary conditions of existence.

    For anything which exists it is necessary that it resist entropic decay otherwise it will cease to exist.

    This is a necessary condition even of computer code, galaxies, sandcastles...

    No one imposes this.
  • schopenhauer1
    7.3k
    One could not do (or not do) anything to a person or on behalf of a person at all because there was no person to act upon until the act of creation was over. Ergo, the act of creation cannot be done to, or for, the person thereby created. It breaks normal causality.Isaac

    This is ridiculous. Now you are going to deny the idea of conditionals (things that COULD very well happen if you acted upon it?). Odd thing to deny. For example, you COULD be making a better argument, but you are making this one. If a baby is born into a lava pit, what is it that is born into a lava pit.. Wait. for. it. A PERSON! THAT is the entity that should not be thrown into a lava pit. But are you going to argue that we cannot consider the baby's well-being before the baby was born because there was no baby yet to be born into the lava pit? Rubbish.

    Yes. Obviously. A person cannot become a person. They already are one. An embryo becomes a person, or a gamete does, or a 'disembodied soul' does, depending on your beliefs.Isaac

    Yep and do not make those X (gametes, embryo, disembodied soul) a person. What's your point?

    But...this is the important bit...no one imposes the necessary conditions of existence even on those. An embryo has necessary conditions of existence. A gamete cell has necessary conditions of existence. A disembodied soul has necessary conditions of existence.

    For anything which exists it is necessary that it resist entropic decay otherwise it will cease to exist.

    This is a necessary condition even of computer code, galaxies, sandcastles...

    No one imposes this.
    Isaac

    You notice, I don't care much what happens to rocks, galaxies, and other non-sentient things. I wonder why that is?
  • Isaac
    8k
    are you going to argue that we cannot consider the baby's well-being before the baby was born because there was no baby yet to be born into the lava pit?schopenhauer1

    I haven't even mentioned well-being.

    Yep and do not make those X (gametes, embryo, disembodied soul) a person. What's your point?schopenhauer1

    That they'd still have necessary conditions of existence.

    I don't care much what happens to rocks, galaxies, and other non-sentient things. I wonder why that is?schopenhauer1

    You don't care much about babies born on the other side of the world either. I don't see what the size of your circle of compassion has to do with causality.

    If what you're saying is that human care about their necessary conditions of existence (whereas rocks don't), then I agree, but that doesn't constitute an argument against procreation. Most humans find those conditions acceptable costs and so it's a reasonable gamble to take for the benefit to society.

    Having lost that argument, you now want to make the problem one of unjust imposition, but you can't because the necessary conditions of existence are not imposed by anyone, they are a fact of the world. No one forced that on me, so no injustice has taken place. All that procreation has done is change the necessary conditions of existence from those of a gamete, to those of an embryo, to those of person. At no point has the mere fact that entities must resist entropic decay been imposed.
  • DA671
    608
    :up: :clap:
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