Not blurry at all. There are no lines here either. Two things that are related are not each other, they are not one and the same thing. And that is the crux of the matter which you so adamantly don't want to see. — god must be atheist

Ok I see that my argument wasn’t very sound. But I think that knowledge, given that it implies at least in some way belief, may be classified as behavior, but of a mental kind. So, why do you think we shouldn’t consider knowledge as some kind of mental behavior?

The term "state" can be misleading. It is not a condition. It is the realization or actualization of a capacity. — Fooloso4

So, wisdom means being wise, which means having realized one’s full potential?

Nice!

When you say that virtue is the natural outcome of wisdom, do you mean that wisdom always leads to virtue, or that wisdom encourages the flourishing of virtue ?

So, wisdom means being wise, which means having realized one’s full potential? — Hello Human

There are other capacities involved in realizing full human potential. Not everyone's potential reaches the full human potential.

When you say that virtue is the natural outcome of wisdom, do you mean that wisdom always leads to virtue, or that wisdom encourages the flourishing of virtue ? — Hello Human

My perspective is that aspects of wisdom are a threshold that once reached, resonate within the soul in such an way that virtue naturally will follow. We approach and cross this when we can not longer deny (ignorance) the reality of something. Can rivers choose not to flow into the ocean?

In this way, it seems we are being shaped by things that are beyond our comprehension. I think that this is why when we begin to try to show off our goodness and claim it as our own in the way of ego identification that we feel we are losing our way, because we are losing that deep sense of gratitude for our place and connection within the mysteries of the universe and the true qualities of virtue lose their authenticity.

Virtue can be traced back to wisdom and wisdom reveals virtue. I think that within the territory of virtue and wisdom, the innate qualities of the soul flourish in varying degrees of clarity. Examples of this would be honesty, integrity and resilience, to name a few.

I think that everything that we do is ultimately seeking this clarity. Our actions in each moment simultaneously reveal both our wisdom and our lack of virtue.

With analogy of a garden, virtue can be like good fruit bearing plants. Weeds like bad qualities that don't bear fruit.
Wisdom might be the process of discriminating between the two, cultivating the garden in order to prevent and eliminate bad plants, and plant and maintain good seeds/plants. — Yohan

This is an interesting and useful analogy. Thank you for sharing.

There are other capacities involved in realizing full human potential. — Fooloso4

What are those other capacities then, and how do they relate to wisdom ?

Virtue, as one poster claimed, is to be an excellent (arete) human being. A virtuous/excellent lion would be a perfect predator. :chin:

Wisdom, on the other hand, may sometimes express misanthropic ideas.

My perspective is that aspects of wisdom are a threshold that once reached, resonate within the soul in such an way that virtue naturally will follow. — Universal Student

And where does courage fit into this according to you ?

true qualities of virtue lose their authenticity. — Universal Student

What does it mean for a quality of virtue to be authentic?

Virtue can be traced back to wisdom and wisdom reveals virtue. — Universal Student

What does it mean for wisdom to “reveal” virtue ?

I think that within the territory of virtue and wisdom, the innate qualities of the soul flourish in varying degrees of clarity. Examples of this would be honesty, integrity and resilience, to name a few.

By “innate” do you mean that they appear naturally, or that they are always there but must be cultivated by virtue and wisdom ?

Wisdom, on the other hand, may sometimes express misanthropic ideas. — Agent Smith

Why would wisdom express misanthropic ideas ?

You'll need to look up misanthrophy; according to the Wikipedia page, there are moral arguments that make us not the best group to hang out with.

And where does courage fit into this according to you ? — Hello Human

I think that courage has a relationship with fear and resistance to change. I myself am still learning the truth and meaning of this word as I approach understanding, so my perspectives may seem particularly wide and open to interpretation with a great deal of room for exploration.

We often hear that courage is doing something even when one feels afraid.

What is fear?

I have exposed myself to fearful circumstances that were highly foolish and irrational. I do not consider doing so to be virtuous. Often, the motivations driving me in those moments seemed to come from some kind of clinging or resistance to change. I was trying to find some way to have control over the unraveling of events and circumstances that were already in motion. I might have then mistakenly thought that this was admirable or some quality to be appreciated but in reflection of those actions now, I see that this was only ignorance underneath the guise of courage. We can tell ourselves anything to justify behavior if we are determined to hold on to those belief structures. These were resistances to the flow and those actions put me in real danger that was harmful to myself and those around me.

I have likewise acted consciously and mindfully, choosing to move in a direction that seemed unfamiliar and thus was perceived as frightening when in reality, there was little real threat or danger and the outcome was more beneficial, healing and useful overall despite my resistances to traveling in that unfamiliar territory. In those circumstances, what I thought was fear was my mind distorting and attempting to predict an outcome which was unknown to me. Allowing myself to explore, remain curious and do something outside of my comfort zone even though I felt what I perceived to be fear required an inner strength and willingness that might resemble courage.

What does it mean for a quality of virtue to be authentic? — Hello Human

I think that my meaning is that an authentic quality of virtue is true.

What does it mean for wisdom to “reveal” virtue ? — Hello Human

"Reveals" implies that the virtue was always there, within the wisdom.

By “innate” do you mean that they appear naturally, or that they are always there but must be cultivated by virtue and wisdom ? — Hello Human

Dormant perhaps, to be awakened and brought forth into potential. If something exists presently, then it has always existed and always will, in some form or another. This removes the linear perspective of time.

Interesting Student,

There are many virtues and as your logic is evidently right vices then have also always existed.

So then as virtue desiring beings with vice being ever present how does one not get tempted by it ?

So then as virtue desiring beings with vice being ever present how does one not get tempted by it ? — Deus

Maybe the point is preciously that we are tempted by them? How could virtue exist, without the opportunity to restrain from temptation of the corresponding vice? It seems like we need contrast and comparison to maintain a balance of these existing things.

Of course and if we do somehow fall into vice to recognise whether that is helpful or not and if appropriate chose virtue.

Agreed. To recognize the usefulness of a thing, through interaction and exchange. To experience and thus learn.

And learning is useful for education prepares us for most things where the application of acquired knowledge is useful.

We often hear that courage is doing something even when one feels afraid.

What is fear?

I have exposed myself to fearful circumstances that were highly foolish and irrational. I do not consider doing so to be virtuous. Often, the motivations driving me in those moments seemed to come from some kind of clinging or resistance to change. I was trying to find some way to have control over the unraveling of events and circumstances that were already in motion. I might have then mistakenly thought that this was admirable or some quality to be appreciated but in reflection of those actions now, I see that this was only ignorance underneath the guise of courage. We can tell ourselves anything to justify behavior if we are determined to hold on to those belief structures. These were resistances to the flow and those actions put me in real danger that was harmful to myself and those around me.

I have likewise acted consciously and mindfully, choosing to move in a direction that seemed unfamiliar and thus was perceived as frightening when in reality, there was little real threat or danger and the outcome was more beneficial, healing and useful overall despite my resistances to traveling in that unfamiliar territory. In those circumstances, what I thought was fear was my mind distorting and attempting to predict an outcome which was unknown to me. Allowing myself to explore, remain curious and do something outside of my comfort zone even though I felt what I perceived to be fear required an inner strength and willingness that might resemble courage. — Universal Student

But what if you did not have fear when going in that unfamiliar direction? Would it be courageous anyway?

I think that my meaning is that an authentic quality of virtue is true. — Universal Student

I still don’t understand what « authenticity » means when talking about virtue, could you please explain some more?

"Reveals" implies that the virtue was always there, within the wisdom. — Universal Student

So if I understand well, wisdom finds the virtue and allows it to be expressed ?

Dormant perhaps, to be awakened and brought forth into potential. — Universal Student

So those qualities are present in the mind but they aren’t necessarily expressed?

Maybe the point is preciously that we are tempted by them? How could virtue exist, without the opportunity to restrain from temptation of the corresponding vice? It seems like we need contrast and comparison to maintain a balance of these existing things. — Universal Student

That is if you define vice as the temptation to do wrong. But couldn’t vice be defined as giving in to that temptation, in opposition to virtue which itself implies refusing to follow it?

But what if you did not have fear when going in that unfamiliar direction? Would it be courageous anyway? — Hello Human

Unless someone's brain is functioning in a way that is atypical, it is a human response when facing the unknown to feel fear.

If someone is able to move in any unknown direction without feeling fear, then I would not consider that to be courageous. I would however consider that to be unusual.

I still don’t understand what « authenticity » means when talking about virtue, could you please explain some more? — Hello Human

In reflection, I see that my words may not very well represent my meaning.

When I speak of that which is authentic, I mean that which is truth. I understand virtue to be doing that which is in alignment with truth.

So if I understand well, wisdom finds the virtue and allows it to be expressed ? — Hello Human

My understanding is that truth already within us. The wisdom is the unraveling of truth and seeing it in greater clarity, as is reflected in our ability to see reality clearly without illusion. This happens through experiences and increased awareness. Virtue is the underlining quality, the expression of the action which aligns with that truth.

So those qualities are present in the mind but they aren’t necessarily expressed? — Hello Human

I wouldn't say the mind, exactly. My understanding is that the mind is one part of the whole, attempting to interpret, understand and communicate that which is. I would say that because the truth is within us, that those qualities are also either being actively expressed or they are not.

That is if you define vice as the temptation to do wrong. But couldn’t vice be defined as giving in to that temptation, in opposition to virtue which itself implies refusing to follow it? — Hello Human

My perspective of these things has changed enough that I am uncertain of how to respond and need to reflect on, "vice" and "virtue".

This does bring to mind however, polarities.

I will return here to this if I reach a point where I feel I have a clearer understanding of these things. I don't want to respond to anything willy nilly.