• javi2541997
    6k
    Happy 100th birthday, sensei! :party:

    It has been a while since the last time I read books of Mishima, but they are always in my mind.

    Confessions of a Mask; The Temple of the Golden Pavilion; After the Banquet; The Age of Blue...

    I feel a bit nostalgic. I remember Mishima was the main point of my first threads when I joined TPF years ago...

    True beauty is something that attacks, overpowers, robs, and finally destroys.
    :fire:

    Perfect purity is possible if you turn your life into a line of poetry written with a splash of blood.
    :sparkle:

    I still have no way to survive but to keep writing one line, one more line, one more line...
    :broken:

    b1f14-the2blife2b-2bdeath2bof2byukio2bmishima-1047164344.jpg
  • Tom Storm
    9.3k
    True beauty is something that attacks, overpowers, robs, and finally destroys.javi2541997

    Can you makes sense of this one for me?

    Those quotes sound like Nietzsche.
  • javi2541997
    6k
    Sorry, Tom. I didn't put context in the quotes. That specific one refers to a novella called The Temple of the Golden Pavilion.

    The plot is about a young monk with suicidal and pessimistic temptations but with a clear vision of what is beautiful or sublime. He is named to learn Buddhist scriptures in a temple all coloured in gold and with a gorgeous garden. It is so beautiful that he even thought being there is the only reason for keeping living. Also, there are interesting debates in the book about what beauty or ugliness is; one character has a deformity, and he is called "flat feet," but he is very talented at flirting with girls, not like the monk, who opts to lose his virginity paying a prostitute; he finds sublimity in death rather than in pleasures, etc.

    Nonetheless, one of his best friends at the temple kills himself without an apparent reason, and the protagonist starts in a madness looking for a good reason to end up with his life, not like his friend. Surprisingly, he came to the conclusion that beauty and death can be together, so he plans to burn the temple with himself inside. That's why the quote says: True beauty is something that attacks, overpowers, robs, and finally destroys.

    When the temple is set on fire, he actually didn't feel bad. He came to this conclusion: Everything that is truly beautiful has an end because if it lasts forever we would have the risk of getting tired of contemplating that beauty...
  • Tom Storm
    9.3k
    Ok. I guess you'd have to read it to make sense of it.
  • 180 Proof
    15.5k
    True beauty is something that attacks, overpowers, robs, and finally destroys.
    @javi2541997

    Can you makes sense of this one for me?

    Those quotes sound like Nietzsche.
    Tom Storm
    This Yukio Mishima quote reminds me of

    For beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror
    which we are barely able to endure, and it amazes us so,
    because it serenely disdains to destroy us.
    Every angel is terrible.
    — Rainer Maria Rilke, Duino Elegies
  • Tom Storm
    9.3k
    Nice. That actually helps me to make sense of the Mishima.
  • Dawnstorm
    265
    Sounds like "mono no aware" (loosely, the surprising poignancy of things), which includes an in-the-moment appreciation of beauty, sort of like being lucky to be there in the moment? An example would be the art of fixing bowls with an inlay of gold or silver to highlight where it once was broken (rather than hiding it as well as we can, over here in the West). I'm hardly an expert in Japanese culture, but I'm certainly not used to have this concept be accompanied by such violent language. I'd guess it's an expression of passion?
  • javi2541997
    6k
    which includes an in-the-moment appreciation of beauty, sort of like being lucky to be there in the moment?Dawnstorm

    Yes, exactly. But rather than being lucky, it is a sense of redemption. He—Mishima—thought it was possible to build things with the art of destroying them. Consider this: thanks to setting the temple on fire, it became a legendary building in Japan.

    I'm hardly an expert in Japanese culture, but I'm certainly not used to have this concept be accompanied by such violent language. I'd guess it's an expression of passion?Dawnstorm

    Passion? Hmm... good. I think it is a correct adjective of what Mishima had in mind when he wrote his works. We have to understand that Mishima was very fond of Samurai culture and values, and the latter is intrinsically violent. One of Mishima's traumas was not having the chance to fight in WWII, because he thought it would be priceless to die defending the honour of his homeland. Since then, he always had a fetish for war and bellicose topics. Too much passion on him?

    I believe he used language that was pure and sophisticated rather than violent. He published his final novel on the same day he committed suicide. Mishima was that type of genius...
  • ssu
    8.8k
    One of Mishima's traumas was not having the chance to fight in WWII, because he thought it would be priceless to die defending the honour of his homeland. Since then, he always had a fetish for war and bellicose topics. Too much passion on him?javi2541997

    In my view Mishima is a great example how patriotism and nationalism and the militarism involved with that isn't something that we Europeans have invented. These ideas are old and universal. And also when it's someone that isn't "us", like with Mishima, we don't have this instant recoil that we would have if Mishima would have been a German, an Englishman or an American. This tells something about us, not of the Japanese or their culture.
  • javi2541997
    6k
    we don't have this instant recoil that we would have if Mishima would have been a German, an Englishman or an American. This tells something about us, not of the Japanese or their culture.ssu

    ssu, I don't follow you in that quote. What do you mean by "instant recoil" if Mishima would have been German instead of Japanese?

    Japan has always been a warfare nation. Until 1861, when Japan started to get 'modernised,' thus having contact with Western nations, it was very common to have guerrillas and bloodbaths amongst samurai. Consider that one of the main points of Bushidō principles is to die with honour in the field rather than run away like rabbits. Mishima got disappointed with the Emperor and the current ministers of Japan in the post-WWII era because they decided to end everything, not only accepting the loss of the war but also how "backwards" the Japanese values were. Since then, Mishima, amongst others, started with a romanticism of old days, when they used katana instead of a pistol or they wore yukata instead of suits. Is that nationalism or a defence of your roots and values? Well, Mishima was in that dilemma the rest of his life.

    Oh, and Japan is a very nationalistic country nowadays with its lobby running party called Nippon Kaigi.
  • ssu
    8.8k
    ssu, I don't follow you in that quote. What do you mean by "instant recoil" if Mishima would have been German instead of Japanese?javi2541997
    Think about. What would we think about a writer that would be an ardent patriot like Mishima if he would be German? He would be the jingoist ultra-nationalist and people would just try to find hints of nazism, white supremacy and racism in his writings. How would a German who would favour Prussian militarism look like today?

    Above all, remember how the Japanese soldiers of the new Self-Defence forces reacted to Mishima. They started to hiss and jeer.

    In fact, I would argue that if there's a "culture war" between the right and the left in Europe and the US, so too is there a similar thing in Japan, but it's very Japanese. And the sad story of Yukio Mishima is part of that, just like the story of the last Hiroo Onoda, the last Japanese soldier to surrender in the Phillipines in 1974. Well, he too was disappointed about post-WW2 when he finally got back to Japan.

    Hiro Onoda surrendering in 1974. He died at the age of 91 years in 2014.
    cms-140117-japan-soldier-4a.jpg
    hiroo-onoda-1.jpg

    Onoda’s three decades spent in the jungle – initially with three comrades and finally alone – came to be seen as an example of the extraordinary lengths to which some Japanese soldiers would go to demonstrate their loyalty to the then emperor, in whose name they fought.

    Refusing to believe that the war had ended with Japan’s defeat in August 1945, Onoda drew on his training in guerilla warfare to kill as many as 30 people whom he mistakenly believed to be enemy soldiers.

    I wonder what Mishima would have written about Onoda.
  • javi2541997
    6k
    Think about. What would we think about a writer that would be an ardent patriot like Mishima if he would be German? He would be the jingoist ultra-nationalist and people would just try to find hints of nazism, white supremacy and racism in his writings. How would a German who would favour Prussian militarism look like today?ssu

    Yes, I agree. He would be heavily criticised, and his works would suffer a bit of censorship, or at least he would be sued and seated in a trial. Yet I think there are some differences between the Mishima we already know and the hypothetical German writer who would have looked like Mishima. The first always rooted for values that are very hard to be understood in the Western world, while the second spread a sense of supremacy around the world. Yes, I know Japan had imperialistic views towards Korea and China, but according to Mishima, that's just politics, and he wanted to focus on the spirit of the nation, and (again) Japan is intrinsically violent, although they promoted actions of peace since the 1945 debacle.

    Above all, remember how the Japanese soldiers of the new Self-Defence forces reacted to Mishima. They started to hiss and jeer.ssu

    A very good point, ssu. Honestly, after reading biographies on Mishima's life, I think he had never expected such a reaction from the Self-Defence Forces. I also think that it was suspended by a thread: if he gained the respect of military forces, Mishima would have won hope in Japan otherwise. Otherwise, it would have a perfect cause for committing suicide since he would no longer believe in a modern Japanese society. Better or worse, it happened the latter...

    But it doesn't matter if it's scenario A or B. He always had death in his mind, because it was the purest possible situation to him.



    just like the story of the last Hiro Onoda, the last Japanese soldier to surrender in the Phillipines in 1974. Well, he too was disappointed about post-WW2 when he finally got back to Japan.

    Hiro Onoda surrendering in 1974.
    ssu

    Yes, I read some articles on Onoda. Look how the people are laughing at him and his katana. Did the Japanese really deserve that disrespect? :roll:

    I wonder what Mishima would have written about Onodassu

    Yeah! I wonder that too! I guess he would have written a novel like Runaway Horses but changing the plot and focusing on Mr. Onoda.

    Damn! I have always missed that pure loyalist behaviour that the useless politicians of my country don't have...
  • ssu
    8.8k
    Yes, I agree. He would be heavily criticised, and his works would suffer a bit of censorship, or at least he would be sued and seated in a trial.javi2541997
    Hence we are far more open to hear what truly a Japanese writer writes and we don't immediately go for the character assassination. We tolerate views that we would immediately not even to bother to listen, if it would be our society. What comes to my mind is the stereotypical cultural studies student, who is fascinated about cultures and traditions of all people except his or her own.

    Yes, I know Japan had imperialistic views towards Korea and China, but according to Mishima, that's just politics, and he wanted to focus on the spirit of the nation, and (again) Japan is intrinsically violent, although they promoted actions of peace since the 1945 debacle.javi2541997
    And that is a far more nuanced view, which makes it interesting.

    A very good point, ssu. Honestly, after reading biographies on Mishima's life, I think he had never expected such a reaction from the Self-Defence Forces.javi2541997
    He didn't understand that the Japan Self-Defence Forces was a totally different animal than the Imperial Army or Navy of the past. These institutions had been disbanded and the first implementation of the SCAP was to form a the National Police Reserve in 1950, and the JSDF was formed as late as 1954. And this is actually very crucial to understand post-WW2 armed forces of Germany and Japan. There was a dramatic ideological change from as both Germany and Japan cut their ties to the past military culture and started with citizen-soldiers and with influence of American military training. (In fact the WW2 era Wehrmacht continued in the East German Volksarmee as there was no emphasis on changing the old culture in the DDR as there was no denazification effort as Communist East Germany assumed it had no ties to the Wehrmacht.)

    For example in Finland there was no disbanding of the armed forces or serious organizational changes, the armed forces that now joined NATO is the same army as fought in WW2 alongside the Third Reich (and later against it) just as the modern US army does trace back to the military of WW2 era.

    Hence this made the Japanese soldiers to be trained and tought quite differently than from the discipline of the Imperial Army or Navy. And especially since Yukio hadn't himself served, I assume his idea of the men making up the military was more of a polished and shining propaganda view of what the actual military is like. And the followers in his own private army were something totally else than the cooks and clerks of the JSDF listening to his speech.

    Usually being in a army shatters ones high views as the normalcy of the members and the bureaucratic of the institution hits home.


    Look how the people are laughing at him and his katana.javi2541997
    They are not at all laughing at him, but smiling and in the following video you can see people clapping their hands. And I suspect that the Japanese male next to him is likely a veteran officer of Onoda that was there to convince him that the war is over. Also note the American officer and Phillipine Army general. Here is actual video of the surrender. He is treated with quite the respect with a lot of Phillipine Army officers around him, not at all as some lunatic.



    Damn! I have always missed that pure loyalist behaviour that the useless politicians of my country don't have...javi2541997
    Weren't you Spanish? I think that you will find it in your history too.
  • javi2541997
    6k
    What comes to my mind is the stereotypical cultural studies student, who is fascinated about cultures and traditions of all people except his or her own.ssu

    I understand you now. Yes, the hypocrisy we are used to hearing from some university faculties.

    They are not at all laughing at him, but smiling and in the following video you can see people clapping their hands.ssu

    Ah! Sorry, my bad. The picture tricked me because I interpreted they were laughing at him...

    And especially since Yukio hadn't himself served...ssu

    But Mishima didn't serve because the bureaucracy didn't allow him to. He did the checking in a random army post in a small town in central Japan, and they rejected him because he wasn't strong enough and he was ill. Furthermore, it seems that his father set up everything with the aim of avoiding his son being selected to the Imperial Army. They were a rich family, and his father recommended him to study and obtain better positions in society. But that trauma of being rejected to fight for your country was in Mishima's mind the rest of his life. He wished to be a kamikaze, but his destiny resulted in him being one of the best writers in the Japanese language ever.

    Weren't you Spanish? I think that you will find it in your history too.ssu

    No way! Not even close to the average Japanese politician.

    Those values that I referred to previously are very important today. Remember Naoto Kan? The Prime Minister incumbent when the Fukushima disaster happened? Well, he resigned because he admitted that he and his cabinet didn't manage the crisis well. It is impossible to see that here...
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