• Banno
    17.4k
    ...which would not have happened if it had not been released. The denial here is of the need for effective journalism in a democracy.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    Lol they had a public discussion about it so it's OK that we murdered those civilians in cold blood and have now spent years torturing the bloke who exposed us.
  • Tate
    377
    which would not have happened if it had not been released. The denial here is of the need for effective journalism in a democracy.Banno

    Yes. The First Amendment protects journalists, and the spirit of it might have been extended to Assange, but the information about that war crime was classified. It would have eventually been unclassified and made available. Exposing it in the way Aasange did potentially compromised American agendas.

    As it happened, he continued to be a pain in the ass, exposing CIA hacking tools and so forth.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    It's so cute how Americans like to romaticise 'dissidents' when they belong to other murderous regimes, but when it comes to the dissidents who belong to their own murderous regime they close ranks and start get mad because war criminals like Clinton have their "reputation" tarnished. Anyone who knows anything about anything already knows that American 'democracy' is a sham, but because Americans need to maintain their fantasies, they need to offshore blame onto a bloke who deserves a medal.

    "Compromising American agendas" is the work of heroes.

    Maybe if it is so terrible that a piece of shit like Clinton is shown to be a piece of shit, any minimal self-reflection ought to lead to the conclusion that a piece of shit probably shouldn't be the front-runner to lead American empire, instead of getting mad at the person who showed said piece of shit to be a piece of shit.

    When did @Frank swap accounts anyway?
  • Moliere
    2k


    Ahhhh.... how I wish.

    But here I am...
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    Murderers, torturers and war criminals will be toasting the British home secretary, Priti Patel, tonight. Her decision to approve the extradition of Julian Assange turns investigative journalism into a criminal act, and licenses the United States to mercilessly hunt down offenders wherever they can be found, bring them to justice and punish them with maximum severity.

    Julian Assange’s supposed crime was to expose atrocities committed by the US and its allies, primarily in Afghanistan and Iraq, during the war on terror. He shone a light on the systematic abuse dealt out to prisoners in Guantánamo Bay. He revealed the fact that more than 150 entirely innocent inmates were held for years without even being charged. He published a video of helicopter gunmen laughing as they casually massacred unarmed Iraqi civilians in an attack that killed around 15 people, including a Reuters photographer and his assistant.

    The US declined to discipline the perpetrators of that atrocity. But they are pursuing Assange to the ends of the earth for revealing it took place. Once safely in US hands, it’s all but certain that Assange will spend the remainder of his life in jail. That’s because the US is determined to show that terrible reprisals lie in store for any reporter who runs a story based on US government documents.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jun/17/britain-julian-assange-extradition-priti-patel-us
  • Relativist
    1.7k
    Julian Assange’s supposed crime was to expose atrocities committed by the US and its allies, primarily in Afghanistan and Iraq, during the war on terror. He shone a light on the systematic abuse dealt out to prisoners in Guantánamo Bay.
    No. Exposing atrocities is not a crime, per se. The crimes Assange is charged with are things like: espionage, conspiracy to commit espionage, theft of property belonging to the US government, general conspiracy, and violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. These are real crimes, and it appears he's guilty of committing at least some of them. It seems heroic when you consider the atrocities he exposed, but that's not the full picture. He also exposed the names of people who were working intelligence, effectively removing these assets. He put some people's lives in danger, such as Afghans and Iraqi civilians who were passing information to the US military). He also exposed some US espionage tactics, thus hurting the US ability to gather intelligence. And as others noted, he helped get Donald Trump elected by publishing illegally obtained DNC emails. Trump notably said, "I love Wikileaks" - but that's because wikileaks helped him. This may please Trump supporters, but that's hardly a reasonable standard for forgiveness. Politics is dirty enough without encouraging criminal activity to make it even dirtier. If he isn't prosecuted, it sends a pretty bad message to future hackers with their own agenda.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    e crimes Assange is charged with are things like: espionage, conspiracy to commit espionage, theft of property belonging to the US government, general conspiracy, and violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. These are real crimes, and it appears he's guilty of committing at least some of them.Relativist

    Then those laws are bad laws. Might pay to remember that the holocaust was perfectly legal too, and that people who are not fucking morons can usually make moral judgements independently of law.

    He also exposed the names of people who were working intelligence, effectively removing these assets. He put some people's lives in danger, such as Afghans and Iraqi civilians who were passing information to the US military).Relativist

    This is a lie.

    He also exposed some US espionage tactics, thus hurting the US ability to gather intelligence.Relativist

    This is good.

    And as others noted, he helped get Donald Trump elected by publishing illegally obtained DNC emails.Relativist

    The US helped get Donald Trump getting elected by electing Donald Trump, and if you find yourself going to bat for a piece of shit organization like the DNC, then you deserve whatever piece of shit politicians you get. Ordinary American people enjoy fascism of their own independent volition, and there's really no need to excuse them for their embrace of it.

    If he isn't prosecuted, then other people might get away with also exposing the US for being the fucking murderous piece of shit state that it is.Relativist

    Fixed it for you.
  • Agent Smith
    5.2k
    Assange doesn't have any support, not even from the people (Americans) whose rights he took such a great risk to protect! This is not the way to treat whistleblowers now is it?
  • gikehef947
    89

    You are not smarter than a donkey. Even more. A donkey is smarter than you. He wants to reason.


    That's the thing.

    *******

    The Assange case is a symptom. Bernie Sanders makes the diagnosis about what the pathology is.
  • 180 Proof
    8.7k
    Yeah, but even a jackass isn't wrong in every inslance and I am not wrong about Assange and other "whistleblowers" who've undermined their disclosures by making their flight / exile / extradiction battles the story instead. Educate yourself e.g. Daniel Ellsberg (WITHOUT colluding with foreign powers). :brow:
  • unenlightened
    6.6k
    Since when has it been illegal for foreigners to collude with foreign powers?
  • NOS4A2
    5.9k
    His only crime was publishing information. Any detractor or hater or persecutor is such because the information was not to his liking.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    Imagine being so small-minded that one is willing to indulge in the destruction of white-blowing against the most vicious empire on Earth because the whistle-blower didn't follow the right decorum.

    Imagine from what infinite space of privilege and ivory tower safety it takes to think that those who expose the criminalities of the most blood-thirsty nation of Earth ought to perform just-so, as demanded by some bourgeois fetishization of ritual and aesthetics.\

    It would have been better for Assange to have colluded with more foreign nations, all the better to maximize his impact. His mistake was in not having done more damage to the US, incapacitating enough.
  • Tate
    377
    His only crime was publishing information. Any detractor or hater or persecutor is such because the information was not to his liking.NOS4A2

    Poke the crocodile, get eaten.
  • Agent Smith
    5.2k
    Poke the crocodile, get eaten.Tate

    Would-be Assanges, are you reading this?
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    May a thousand Assanges bloom, and may each of them have the same courage in showing the American state to be the cowardly, murderous piece of shit it is - along with its worthless apologists:

    Assange’s willingness to resist Washington’s extradition attempts benefit us all, from his taking political asylum in the Ecuadorian embassy in 2012 until British police forcibly dragged him out in 2019, to his fighting US prosecutors in the courtroom tooth and claw during his incarceration in Belmarsh Prison. Assange’s fight against US extradition benefits us not just because the empire’s war against truth harms our entire species and not just because he cannot receive a fair trial under the Espionage Act, but because his refusal to bow down and submit forces the empire to overextend itself into the light and show us all what it’s really made of.

    Washington, London and Canberra are colluding to imprison a journalist for telling the truth: the first with its active extradition attempts, the second with its loyal facilitation of those attempts, and the third with its silent complicity in allowing an Australian journalist to be locked up and persecuted for engaging in the practice of journalism. By refusing to lie down and forcing them to come after him, Assange has exposed some harsh realities of which the public has largely been kept unaware.

    The fact that London and Canberra are complying so obsequiously with Washington’s agendas, even while their own mainstream media outlets decry the extradition and even while all major human rights and press freedom watchdog groups in the western world say Assange must go free, shows that these are not separate sovereign nations but member states of a single globe-spanning empire centralized around the US government. Because Assange stood his ground and fought them, more attention is being brought to this reality.

    His very life casts light on all the areas where it is most sorely needed. We all owe this man a tremendous debt. The least we can do is try our best to get him free.

    https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2022/06/18/assange-is-doing-his-most-important-work-yet/
  • 180 Proof
    8.7k
    Since when has it been illegal for foreigners to collude with foreign powers?unenlightened
    Apparently, since 1917 ... The question is besides the point I've raised. As far illegality is concerned, Assange has been indicted for espionage, not "collusion" which is not a crime (except re: antitrust laws). Colluding with Russia's interference in US elections outted – compromised – him as a tool of the Kremlin and thereby undermines him both legally in the US and in the theatre of Realpolitik. Ergo, stupid. :shade:
  • unenlightened
    6.6k
    Colluding with Russia's interference in US elections180 Proof

    Ah, the fragility of democracy is so vulnerable to truth isn't it? One cannot chose fairly between liars when one of them is exposed.
  • Agent Smith
    5.2k
    Ergo, stupid.180 Proof

    :sad: If only Assange had read Aristotle!
  • Relativist
    1.7k
    This is a lie.Streetlight
    I was not lying, I conveyed what I'd read in good faith. I accept your correction on this point, but not all untruths are lies. By contrast, by inventing a quote you attributed to me, you were making an intentional untruth -a lie. Please try to debate politely.

    Then those laws are bad lawsStreetlight
    You think espionage, and hacking into private computers should be legal? Sorry, but that's crazy.

    This [exposing espionage techniques] is good.Streetlight
    Our enemies/rivals- they're engaged in espionage against us, so (in effect) you're arguing that it's good to give them an advantage. Again, that's crazy.

    The US helped get Donald Trump getting elected by electing Donald Trump, and if you find yourself going to bat for a piece of shit organization like the DNC, then you deserve whatever piece of shit politicians you get.Streetlight
    In a perfect world, everyone would make rational, fact based decisions about whom to vote for. We don't live in that world, as is obvious when you consider that 70% of Republicans STILL believe the 2020 election was stolen. Unfortunately, triggering emotions is part of the game.

    Absolutely, we learned some nasty crap about the DNC from the emails that were obtained criminally. I hope the revelations lead to improvements. Aside from criminality, it's also one-sided: do you seriously think the RNC is saintly? Imagine what Republican leaders say about Trump in private!

    I'm also outraged by some of the revelations, and I hope they've led to improvements. We DO have whistle-blower laws, and perhaps they could be improved. But it's naive to suggest that espionage against the US, and computer security intrusions, should be legal.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    Our enemies/rivalsRelativist

    I don't know who this 'our' is. US foreign policy is positively genocidal, and anything that undermines it is for the betterment of the Earth - including most American people, whose living standards are asphyxiated in service of US Empire.

    But it's naive to suggest that espionage against the US, and computer security intrusions, should be legal.Relativist

    Espionage against the US should be rewarded. Especially since that 'espionage' apparently simply equates to: exposing US war crimes and international murder. Yes, I absolutely want more of that, and if you gave one single damn about the US, you would too.

    Absolutely, we learned some nasty crap about the DNC from the emails that were obtained criminally. I hope the revelations lead to improvements. Aside from criminality, it's also one-sided: do you seriously think the RNC is saintly? Imagine what Republican leaders say about Trump in private!Relativist

    The differences between the RNC and DNC are aesthetic, and amount to which colors you like to dress up in. If anything I despise the DNC even more for pretending to be an opposition to the RNC, while in fact its only job - literally its only function - is to stave off any actual change, while acting as seat-warmers in the meantime. When in comes to Assange - or foreign policy for that matter - they walk in lockstep. The mountains of dead who they are equally responsible for overseas do not care if the bombs which ripped them to shreds were marked with Elephants or Donkeys, and neither do I. There has not been a single US president since WWII who has not been a war criminal deserving of hanging at the Hague.
  • gikehef947
    89

    When we say we belong to the "free" world, it will be because we assume that the press is free here. Assange shows the problem, because an amateur did the work that professional journalists should have done. You have to be very naive to believe that the press is free. The oligarchs have always wanted it as tied up as in North Korea, but nobody like Assange has left so many sacred cows of the newspapers, so many newspapers, news networks and others... with their asses in the air. The media's job is to decorate the cave nicely. Heidegger already said it: "the public light obscures everything". One false step and you go to the gulag, but we have to interpret that these are things that only happen in Russia!
  • Relativist
    1.7k
    Our enemies/rivals — Relativist
    I don't know who this 'our' is.
    Streetlight
    Here's a few important ones:Russia, China, North Korea, Iran.

    Espionage against the US should be rewarded.Streetlight
    :yikes:

    Especially since that 'espionage' apparently simply equates to: exposing US war crimes and international murder.
    Sounds like an irrational leap: the US has done some bad things, therefore it only does bad things...
  • Isaac
    7.4k
    Here's a few important ones:Russia, China, North Korea, Iran.Relativist

    Well then America's shite because they're all still around.
  • gikehef947
    89

    I hate bullies. A example:



    My sense of justice is disgusted by the fucking coyote and I wish I could pamper the poor kitty.
    - the kitten = Assange or Anna Stepanovna Politkóvskaya.
    - the coyote = the oligarchs of any powerful nation and the resources at their disposal.

    According to the oligarchs, what is happening to Assange and Politkóvskaya is "the order of things".

    Well, my moral sense is repugnant to that "order of things." I wish I could stick a stick up the coyote's ass.

    But, of course, I hate bullies. I have always hated them. I was never among them or among those who laughed at their shitty occurrences.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    Sounds like an irrational leap: the US has done some bad things, therefore it only does bad things..Relativist

    The US is unique and incomparable in the scale of death and suffering it metes out. No other country, or set of countries combined, even comes close. It is a singularly murderous state. Any and all that can be done to undermine its presence on the world stage is a Platonic Good. Assange is a hero who has worked to do this, and should be celebrated accordingly.

    Here's a few important ones:Russia, China, North Korea, Iran.Relativist

    I did not ask who the enemies are. I asked who the 'our' is. Because the US works neither in my interest, nor yours.
  • 180 Proof
    8.7k
    Assange is a hero ...Streetlight
    ... not until he has sacrificed himself like all genuine heroes do.
    I've seen the promised land. I may not get there with you. But I want you to know tonight, that we, as a people, will get to the promised land.
    :fire:

    Your anti-"Pax Americana" jeremiads from the suburbs of the globe are as historically well-sourced as they are ideologically myopic and luxuriously lacking of skin in the game. At least, I'm guessing, the hegemon is your neighborhood, Street, is your kind of "Platonically Good" hegemon for providing a counter to "The Great Satan". :naughty:
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    ... not until he has sacrificed himself like all genuine heroes do.180 Proof

    Sorry, I don't believe he owes you the fulfilment of your teenage/religious-Christological fantasies. Having exposed American murder and callousness at great determent to himself is quite enough. But if you want Hollywood or the Bible, you can always go the cinema and watch something as stupid as your Christian sacrificial fantasies.

    Your anti-"Pax Americana" jeremiads from the suburbs of the globe are as historically well-sourced as they are ideologically myopic and luxuriously lacking of skin in the game.180 Proof

    This is stupid and wrong. I live in what is effectively an American army base - as do you - whose effect is nothing but detrimental and tax-base sucking - funding your fucking oligarchs, while your stupid fucking wars get my - and your - neighbours killed. Take your recycled Taleb-derivitive advertising slogans and stick 'em in the thought-void cliche bin where they belong.
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