• SteveKlinko
    290
    This still did not invalidate the fact that V1 is Topologically mapped with the Retina. — SteveKlinko
    What do you mean with "V1 is Topologically mapped with the Retina"?
    Damir Ibrisimovic
    Means that each point on the Retina is mapped to a point on V1. Also points near each other on the Retina are mapped to points near each other on V1. There are some details about the Retia mapping being split between the left side V1 and the right side V1 but there is this mapping nevertheless.
  • SteveKlinko
    290
    The expectation puts the towels there but reality catches up fast. The real world is remarkably and reliably presented.and reality overrides expectation quickly unless you are psychotic. — SteveKlinko
    There was an experiment: Person A would ask for directions. Person B would start giving directions to persona A. Two other people would carry something between persons A & B so that A & B cannot see each other for a couple of seconds. The third person C would quickly replace person B... :)

    The interesting thing is that person A would not notice the switch...
    Damir Ibrisimovic
    I've heard of experiments like this. Interesting but it's about paying attention. Not that they can't see the two different people because of some Visual System defect. They just weren't paying attention.
  • BrianW
    304
    This argument of consciousness is like what the argument of gravity used to be (before Newton). Everyone knows the activity they are trying to describe but cannot express it in objective terms. Everything seems to depend on subjective language and none of the contradictory arguments show that anybody is wrong, only that they disagree because they have an alternate explanation of their own. Perhaps, this is a subject we all need to work together to be able to define all the parameters of its identity.
  • Damir Ibrisimovic
    129
    Means that each point on the Retina is mapped to a point on V1.SteveKlinko

    Then how do you interpret this: http://unisci.com/stories/20011/0329011.htm ?

    Recent studies at the University of California, Berkeley, however, show that the metaphor is more poetic than real. What the eye sends to the brain are mere outlines of the visual world, sketchy impressions that make our vivid visual experience all the more amazing.

    It's time to be serious. Vague references to textbooks are not constructive. Show us a paper... :)

    Enjoy the day, :cool:
  • SteveKlinko
    290
    Means that each point on the Retina is mapped to a point on V1. — SteveKlinko
    Then how do you interpret this: http://unisci.com/stories/20011/0329011.htm ?



    Recent studies at the University of California, Berkeley, however, show that the metaphor is more poetic than real. What the eye sends to the brain are mere outlines of the visual world, sketchy impressions that make our vivid visual experience all the more amazing.

    It's time to be serious. Vague references to textbooks are not constructive. Show us a paper...
    Damir Ibrisimovic
    I originally said it was a Topographical mapping but changed it to Topological mapping. When I Googled it, it looks like I was right the first time. They call it a Topographical mapping. Google Retina to V1 Topographical mapping. I'm surprised you didn't do this already.
  • Damir Ibrisimovic
    129
    What we ‘see’ depends on the features extracted in the retina, and how this information is integrated and interpreted by the brain. In the retina, the visual information is split into two streams, one for colour and one for form and motion.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/retinal-ganglion-cell .

    Enjoy the day, :cool:
  • SteveKlinko
    290
    What we ‘see’ depends on the features extracted in the retina, and how this information is integrated and interpreted by the brain. In the retina, the visual information is split into two streams, one for colour and one for form and motion.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/retinal-ganglion-cell .
    Damir Ibrisimovic
    Good article. But the real question is: Given that all that Neural Activity is happening then how do we get that Visual experience in our Conscious Minds? What is that Visual experience? That is the Hard Problem of Consciousness.
  • Damir Ibrisimovic
    129
    Given that all that Neural Activity is happening then how do we get that Visual experience in our Conscious Minds?SteveKlinko

    As I suggested: Retinal cells are part of our brain. So, the retina is part of our brain that is directly exposed to visual stimuli... :)

    What is that Visual experience?SteveKlinko

    The totality of visual experience before any neuronal activity. :)

    Enjoy the day, :cool:
  • Damir Ibrisimovic
    129
    Good article.SteveKlinko

    All neuronal activities produce an abstract... :)

    I suggest Aldous Huxley's "The Doors of Perception". In it, there is the world of unprocessed stimuli.

    Enjoy the day, :cool:
  • Damir Ibrisimovic
    129
    This argument of consciousness is like what the argument of gravity used to be (before Newton).BrianW

    Before Newton geometry (circle) drove movements of celestial bodies. Copernicus tried to describe the heliocentric system with circles - but it didn't work. Kepler "cheated" with ellipses to make it fit into the heliocentric system. Only when Newton proposed the theory of gravitation things started to "click together"... :)

    Enjoy the day, :cool:
  • SteveKlinko
    290
    This argument of consciousness is like what the argument of gravity used to be (before Newton). — BrianW
    Before Newton geometry (circle) drove movements of celestial bodies. Copernicus tried to describe the heliocentric system with circles - but it didn't work. Kepler "cheated" with ellipses to make it fit into the heliocentric system. Only when Newton proposed the theory of gravitation things started to "click together"... :)
    Damir Ibrisimovic
    Yes this is what I have been arguing. Science does not have a theory for how Consciousness is produced from the Neural Activity. When Science finds a theory the Hard Problem will be solved
    .
  • Damir Ibrisimovic
    129
    Science does not have a theory for how Consciousness is produced from the Neural Activity.SteveKlinko

    Consciousness does not emerge from neuronal activity... :)

    As I said: neuronal activity produces abstracts vital for quick responses to the environmental challenges. :)

    Enjoy the day, :cool:
  • SteveKlinko
    290
    Science does not have a theory for how Consciousness is produced from the Neural Activity. — SteveKlinko
    Consciousness does not emerge from neuronal activity... :)

    As I said: neuronal activity produces abstracts vital for quick responses to the environmental challenges.
    Damir Ibrisimovic

    I seems that for Sensory input that there has to be Neural Activity before the Conscious experience happens.
  • Pattern-chaser
    530
    I seems that for Sensory input that there has to be Neural Activity before the Conscious experience happens.SteveKlinko

    Whatever else it is, perception - the 'processing' of sense data - is Neural Activity. :up:
  • Damir Ibrisimovic
    129
    I seems that for Sensory input that there has to be Neural Activity before the Conscious experience happens.SteveKlinko

    Why?

    Enjoy the day, :cool:
  • SteveKlinko
    290
    I seems that for Sensory input that there has to be Neural Activity before the Conscious experience happens. — SteveKlinko
    Why?
    Damir Ibrisimovic
    Nobody knows why. The appropriate question is, given that Neural Activity seems to precede Conscious Activity, How does the Neural Activity lead to the Conscious Activity? What is the mechanism or process?
  • Damir Ibrisimovic
    129
    Nobody knows why.SteveKlinko

    Retinal outputs are hints and edges - sketchy images... :) our impression of the visual images are vastly more than that. The further neuronal activities are even more sketchy than that. There is no room for the richness of visual impressions... :)

    The only way to account for the totality of visual experiences is to take raw stimuli before any neural activity... :)

    Enjoy the day, :cool:
  • SteveKlinko
    290
    Nobody knows why. — SteveKlinko
    Retinal outputs are hints and edges - sketchy images... :) our impression of the visual images are vastly more than that. The further neuronal activities are even more sketchy than that. There is no room for the richness of visual impressions... :)

    The only way to account for the totality of visual experiences is to take raw stimuli before any neural activity... :)
    Damir Ibrisimovic

    If the Optic Nerve is severed then it does not matter how much Light is directed to the Retina. The person would be blind. It seems that to have a Visual experience further processing must happen. This happens in the Visual Cortex. The Visual Processing seems to be geared towards taking the image apart and finding features like edges. There has to be an even further Processing stage where all the dismantled features are combined into the Visual experience that we have. The Inter Mind Model proposes that this Combining or Binding function is accomplished in an as yet undiscovered part of the Brain or Mind called the Inter Mind. The Inter Mind would monitor and utilize all areas of the Visual system and create that beautiful high definition Color Visual scene of what we are looking at.
  • Damir Ibrisimovic
    129
    It seems that to have a Visual experience further processing must happen.SteveKlinko

    That's not what the science says... :) According to numerous findings - there is no anything like a reconstruction of visual impressions anywhere in the brain... :)

    If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, Infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern.
    from The Doors of Perception

    ...to enable us to live, the brain and nervous system eliminate unessential information from the totality of the Mind at Large.
    Charlie Dunbar Broad :)

    The whole cascade of neural activities has only one purpose - to emphasise the most relevant stimuli as quickly as possible...

    The only point at which we have the unfiltered totality of visual impressions is when retinas are exposed to the visual stimuli minus retinal cells activity... :)

    Enjoy the day, :cool:
  • SteveKlinko
    290
    It seems that to have a Visual experience further processing must happen. — SteveKlinko
    That's not what the science says... :) According to numerous findings - there is no anything like a reconstruction of visual impressions anywhere in the brain... :)



    If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, Infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern.
    from The Doors of Perception



    ...to enable us to live, the brain and nervous system eliminate unessential information from the totality of the Mind at Large.
    Charlie Dunbar Broad :)

    The whole cascade of neural activities has only one purpose - to emphasise the most relevant stimuli as quickly as possible...

    The only point at which we have the unfiltered totality of visual impressions is when retinas are exposed to the visual stimuli minus retinal cells activity...
    Damir Ibrisimovic

    One thing Science is pretty sure about is that there is lots of Neural Processing that happens before a Conscious experience happens. The question is, how does all that Neural Processing create the Visual Image that we see in our Conscious Minds? There seems to be an Explanatory Gap here.
  • Pattern-chaser
    530
    That's not what the science says... :) According to numerous findings - there is no anything like a reconstruction of visual impressions anywhere in the brain... :)Damir Ibrisimovic

    Then either the science is lacking, or we deserve a detailed explanation of how we seem to 'see' mental images, if they don't exist. Despite aphantasia, I 'see' visual images in my mind. If this is an hallucination, I'd be interested to know why and how.... :chin:
  • Pattern-chaser
    530
    One thing Science is pretty sure about is that there is lots of Neural Processing that happens before a Conscious experience happens.SteveKlinko

    That's what I call "perception", but maybe I use the term incorrectly. :chin: First there is sensation - input from the senses - then there is perception - (extensive) 'processing' of the sensory input - and the end results are passed to the conscious mind, apparently fully-formed. Perception, like sensation, is pre-conscious and unconscious. We have no awareness of it, but we deduce (maybe wrongly? :chin:) that it happens.
  • Damir Ibrisimovic
    129
    The question is, how does all that Neural Processing create the Visual Image that we see in our Conscious Minds?SteveKlinko

    Since there is no totality of visual experiences in the rest of the brain - we can assume that the retinas offer the basis for the totality of visual experiences... :)

    Whatever passes through optical nerves is turned into hints of edges and coulour can not be the basis for the totality of visual experiences... :)

    Enjoy the day, :cool:
  • Damir Ibrisimovic
    129
    If this is an hallucination, I'd be interested to know why and how....Pattern-chaser

    It's not a hallucination... :)

    The totality of visual experiences is in the activity of retinal neurons... Whatever is passed to the rest of the brain are sketchy images only... :)

    Enjoy the day, :cool:
  • SteveKlinko
    290
    One thing Science is pretty sure about is that there is lots of Neural Processing that happens before a Conscious experience happens. — SteveKlinko
    That's what I call "perception", but maybe I use the term incorrectly. :chin: First there is sensation - input from the senses - then there is perception - (extensive) 'processing' of the sensory input - and the end results are passed to the conscious mind, apparently fully-formed. Perception, like sensation, is pre-conscious and unconscious. We have no awareness of it, but we deduce (maybe wrongly? :chin:) that it happens.
    Pattern-chaser
    Your sequence is probably correct.
  • Pattern-chaser
    530
    Your sequence is probably correct.SteveKlinko

    :smile: Perception is the interesting part, I think. But it's so hard to find stuff about it. Most of what's on the net is naive kiddie science. Like the stuff about eyes that makes them sound like full-motion video cameras. :roll: If anyone has any links on perception (processing of sense data prior to conscious consumption), I'd love to see them! :up: :chin:
  • SteveKlinko
    290
    The question is, how does all that Neural Processing create the Visual Image that we see in our Conscious Minds? — SteveKlinko
    Since there is no totality of visual experiences in the rest of the brain - we can assume that the retinas offer the basis for the totality of visual experiences... :)

    Whatever passes through optical nerves is turned into hints of edges and coulour can not be the basis for the totality of visual experiences...
    Damir Ibrisimovic

    I agree that it is tempting to give more weight to the contribution the Retina makes in the Visual System because it is only in the Retina that the Image is completely represented. But while Dreaming at night you can have very Vivid and Complete Images created by the Mind and there is no input from the Retina. The Lateral Geniculate Nucleus (LGN) switches the Optic Nerve off during sleep. This would indicate that Visual Image creation is further downstream from the Retina and is probably mostly a product of Cortex Neural Activity. But even if the Retina was more involved in the generation of Visual Images we still have the Explanatory Gap. How is the Visual Image that we experience generated from all the Retinal and Cortical Neural Activity? That is the Hard Problem of Consciousness.
  • Pattern-chaser
    530
    That's not what the science says... :) According to numerous findings - there is no anything like a reconstruction of visual impressions anywhere in the brain... :)Damir Ibrisimovic

    V1 cells are organized retinotopically, which means that a point-to-point map exists between the retina and primary visual cortex, and neighboring areas in the retina correspond to neighboring areas in V1. — BrainHQ.com
    - link to article.
  • Damir Ibrisimovic
    129
    But while Dreaming at night you can have very Vivid and Complete Images created by the Mind and there is no input from the Retina.SteveKlinko

    I'm not convicted that REM does not contribute to the vividness of our dreams... :)

    Enjoy the day, :cool:
  • SteveKlinko
    290
    But while Dreaming at night you can have very Vivid and Complete Images created by the Mind and there is no input from the Retina. — SteveKlinko
    I'm not convicted that REM does not contribute to the vividness of our dreams... :)
    Damir Ibrisimovic
    There is no activity in the Rods and Cones when Dreaming. Eye movements don't create Visual Scenes. Something at a further stage of the processing seems to be creating the actual Visual Images that we see when we are Dreaming or when we are Awake.
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