• Deletedmemberzc
    2.5k
    The schizophrenic is drowning in the same waters in which the mystic swims with delight. — Joseph Campbell

    I'd like to take a look at the link between madness and mysticism. I get that in some cases these reports of odd behavior may have a non-literal application. I'd like to overlook that fact for the moment and take the prophets (and others) at their word.

    We'll kick it off with the Bible:

    "Consider Isaiah, who stripped off all his clothes and wandered around naked (Isaiah 20). Or Jeremiah, who not only hid his underwear in a rock but then went back to retrieve it after a “long time” (Jeremiah 13). Jeremiah apparently didn’t mind parting with under garments, but he couldn’t be separated from the cattle yoke he had fastened to his shoulders until another prophet broke it off (Jeremiah 27 and 28). Yet another eyebrow-raiser was Hosea, who married a prostitute and named their daughter Lo-ruhama, which means ‘unloved’ (Hosea 1)."

    https://catholicexchange.com/crazy-prophets-old-testament



    "Ezekiel lived and worked at the same time as Jeremiah, so clearly a lot was going on, and his acts had a flair for the…shall we say, desperate? He ate a chunk of the scripture parchment, to illustrate that the word of God was sweeter than honey. He lay for 390 days before a brick to reenact the siege of Jerusalem. He cut off his hair with a sword and burned a third of it in the city center.

    Basically, he was the town weirdo. If you saw him pacing down the street, you crossed to the other side. In life, he was probaby a fairly offputting dude."

    https://redshoesfunnyshirt.com/2017/09/12/ezekiel-the-crazy-prophet/


    Here we have Ezekiel eating a sweet-tasting scroll:

    "Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel. So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll. And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness."

    Ezekiel 3
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    The schizophrenic is drowning in the same waters in which the mystic swims with delight. — Joseph Campbell

    The mystic hears the music in the water and swims while dancing. If you can't hear the music it's hard to dance.
  • javra
    2.4k
    I'd like to take a look at the link between madness and mysticism.ZzzoneiroCosm

    Since this is a philosophy forum, what I take to be commonsense reasoning: That some X’s are Y’s and some Y’s are X’s does not imply that all X’s are Y’s and vice versa, thereby requiring a linkage between the two.

    Not all mystics are schizophrenics, and not all schizophrenics are mystics.

    Treating the two as though they are linked is as irrational, to not say irresponsible, as would be the prejudicial conviction that there is a linkage between materialists and idiocy - to address an example that a materialist might better grasp.

    The fact of life that some materialists are idiots, and that some idiots are materialists, does not then rationally imply that there is a linkage between idiocy and materialism. Same with any contrived linkage between madness and mysticism.

    Unless, of course, one assumes that (intelligent?) materialist platform from which any spiritual insight or experience is indicative of unhealth - this by sheer fact of not being accordant to a materialistic world view of reality.
  • Deletedmemberzc
    2.5k


    If some Xs are linked to some Ys - but we grant that not all Xs are linked to all Ys - there is still a link, an analyzable link, between X and Y. That my analysis assays to address the link (the link itself - which clearly exists if some Xs are linked to some Ys) doesn't appear irrational or irresponsible to me. Rather, it's a focused, limited analysis of what interests me most about X and Y.
  • javra
    2.4k
    If some Xs are linked to some Ys - but we grant that not all Xs are linked to all Ys - there is still a link, an analyzable link, between X and Y.ZzzoneiroCosm

    If some cars are linked to some red things - but we grant that not all cars are linked to all red things - there is still a link, an analyzable link, between car and red thing.

    I'm not getting it, but OK.
  • Deletedmemberzc
    2.5k


    If some set of cars are linked to some set of red things, there is an analyzable link between said set of cars and said set of red things.

    I think you're concocting difficulties where none are obvious.

    At any rate, this thread isn't interrogating the existence of a link between mysticism and madness. I begin with the premise - the assumption, if you like - more accurately, the hypothesis, grounded in lifelong more or less scholarly interest in and research of both phenomena - that a link exists between mysticism and madness.

    I appreciate your challenge, challenges are fun.
  • javra
    2.4k
    I said that I’m not getting it and that it’s OK by me, and I stand by that. But in speaking to someone aiming for the mental health professions, where choices are made in who is and is not insane:

    If some set of cars are linked to some set of red things, there is an analyzable link between said set of cars and said set of red things.ZzzoneiroCosm

    The only link between cars and red things I can find is that some cars will be red things and vice versa - which of itself doesn’t say much regarding the link between cars and red things. One could abstract that both are objects but, again, can't find the importance to this in terms of links. What other significant “links” between these two categories can you think of?

    Edit: "If there is a link, then there is a link," is a bit tautological, imo, and doesn't of itself evidence there being a link to begin with.

    I think you're concocting difficulties where none are obvious.ZzzoneiroCosm

    Which I’m in obvious disagreement with.

    At any rate, this thread isn't interrogating the existence of a link between mysticism and madness. I begin with the premise - the assumption, if you like - more accurately, the hypothesis, grounded in lifelong more or less scholarly interest in and research of both phenomena - that a link exists between mysticism and madness.ZzzoneiroCosm

    So, granting that the present Dalai Lama is sincere in his views and thereby a mystic, what would link the present Dalai Lama to madness? And, more concretely: in your view, ought the Dalai Lama be given medications till he holds no more belief in Nirvana and related and/or derivative Buddhist ideas - this on grounds that mysticism is linked to madness?

    I appreciate your challenge, challenges are fun.ZzzoneiroCosm

    Consider me here to please.
  • 180 Proof
    14k
    :fire: :eyes:
    If you talk to God, you are praying; If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia. If the dead talk to you, you are a spiritualist; If you talk to the dead, you are a schizophrenic. — Thomas Szasz
  • Jackson
    1.8k
    If you talk to God, you are praying; If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia. — Thomas Szasz

    If you talk to someone who cannot talk back you are talking to yourself.
  • javra
    2.4k
    And how does that quote address there being a link between mysticism and madness?
  • Deletedmemberzc
    2.5k
    So, granting that the present Dalai Lama is sincere in his views and thereby a mystic, what would link the present Dalai Lama to madness?javra

    The schizophrenic is drowning in the same waters in which the mystic swims with delight. — Joseph Campbell

    The Dalai Lama is likely a case of swimming.
  • Deletedmemberzc
    2.5k
    If you talk to God, you are praying; If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia. If the dead talk to you, you are a spiritualist; If you talk to the dead, you are a schizophrenic. — Thomas Szasz

    :smile:
  • javra
    2.4k
    To clarify my just asked question by example:

    A Buddhist mystic with insight into Nirvana will neither talk to Nirvana nor have Nirvana talk back to him/her, yet will be a mystic nonetheless.

    The Dalai Lama is likely a case of swimming.ZzzoneiroCosm

    Which doesn't answer any of the questions posed.

    So much for challenges being fun, I guess. OK, then.
  • 180 Proof
    14k
    Being a mystic does not preclude her also being a schizophrenic or vice versa.
  • Deletedmemberzc
    2.5k
    So much for challenges being fun, I guess. OK, then.javra

    At any rate, this thread isn't interrogating the existence of a link between mysticism and madness.ZzzoneiroCosm
  • 180 Proof
    14k
    I can't understand the quote for you.
  • Deletedmemberzc
    2.5k
    ought the Dalai Lama be given medications till he holds no more belief in Nirvana and related and/or derivative Buddhist ideas - this on grounds that mysticism is linked to madness?javra

    I never said anything remotely like the above.

    Keep reading the thread if you want to learn more about the link. I'll be posting more soon.
  • Tom Storm
    8.3k
    I have spent around three decades working with people (generally in psycho-social and addiction settings) who have various forms of psychotic illness - most typically schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder and bi-polar disorder - many of whom were/are untreated. I have met people who think that they are Jesus, God, Krishna, Mohammad, Vishnu, Ironman, Thor, The Grim Reaper, The President of the World Bank, Axel Rose, Marilyn Monroe, Doctor Who, John Lennon, CIA agents, genius physicists and assorted healers and sages. No one ever sees themselves as a bank teller or car wash attendant...

    When people lose touch with reality, they often get scared and seek some status to help overcome their fears. My take - big, powerful identities like Monroe or Krishna provides them with a sense of coherence and a ready made myth which brings consolation, along with some kind of power/agency and a mission to work towards - world redemption, bringing love to the world, composing revolutionary music, controlling the financial system, proving god/s, speaking to the dead, healing the sick, whatever it might be.

    Everyone I've met has been unique and interesting and they are much more than their illness. And most people when they 'recover' (remission or via medication) report that they are happy to not be experiencing psychosis any more. Naturally, mental illness is a field of huge and varying opinions and theories.
  • Deletedmemberzc
    2.5k
    Thanks for your thoughts. My ideas about schizophrenia come from the literature: Schreber and other first hand accounts, and especially Louis A. Sass' Madness and Modernism. More to say but no time left tonight. :smile:
  • 180 Proof
    14k
    I very much appreciate your insights.Thanks.
  • Deletedmemberzc
    2.5k



    Mystical psychosis is a term coined by Arthur J. Deikman in the early 1970s to characterize first-person accounts of psychotic experiences[1] that are strikingly similar to reports of mystical experiences.[2][3][4][5] According to Deikman, and authors from a number of disciplines, psychotic experience need not be considered pathological, especially if consideration is given to the values and beliefs of the individual concerned.[6][7] Deikman thought the mystical experience was brought about through a "deautomatization" or undoing of habitual psychological structures that organize, limit, select, and interpret perceptual stimuli.[8] There may be several causes of deautomatization—exposure to severe stress, substance abuse[9][10] or withdrawal, and mood disorders.[11]

    A closely related category is mystical experience with psychotic features, proposed by David Lukoff in 1985.[12]

    A first episode of mystical psychosis is often very frightening, confusing and distressing, particularly because it is an unfamiliar experience. For example, researchers have found that people experiencing paranormal and mystical phenomena report many of the symptoms of panic attacks.[13]

    On the basis of comparison of mystical experience and psychotic experience Deikman came to a conclusion that mystical experience can be caused by "deautomatization" or transformation of habitual psychological structures which organize, limit, select and interpret perceptional incentives that is interfaced to heavy stresses and emotional shocks.[14] He described usual symptoms of mystical psychosis which consist in strengthening of a receptive mode and weakening of a mode of action.

    People susceptible to mystical psychosis become much more impressible. They feel a unification with society, with the world, God, and also feel washing out the perceptive and conceptual borders. Similarity of mystical psychosis to mystical experience is expressed in sudden, distinct and very strong transition to a receptive mode. It is characterized with easing the subject—object distinction, sensitivity increase and nonverbal, lateral, intuitive thought processes.[15]

    Deikman's opinion that experience of mystical experience in itself can't be a sign to psychopathology, even in case of this experience at the persons susceptible to neurophysiological and psychiatric frustration, in many respects defined the relation to mystical experiences in modern psychology and psychiatry.

    Deikman considered that all-encompassing unity opened in mysticism can be all-encompassing unity of reality.[16]
    — wiki


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystical_psychosis
  • Deletedmemberzc
    2.5k


    The link between the visitation of angels and anxiety and panic attacks:


    And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night. An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people. — Luke 2:8-10

    A first episode of mystical psychosis is often very frightening, confusing and distressing, particularly because it is an unfamiliar experience. For example, researchers have found that people experiencing paranormal and mystical phenomena report many of the symptoms of panic attacks. — wiki

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystical_psychosis
  • Deletedmemberzc
    2.5k
    I have met people who think that they are Jesus, God, Krishna, Mohammad, Vishnu, Ironman, Thor, The Grim Reaper, The President of the World Bank, Axel Rose, Marilyn Monroe, Doctor Who, John Lennon, CIA agents, genius physicists and assorted healers and sages. No one ever sees themselves as a bank teller or car wash attendant...Tom Storm

    This I link to Karen Horney's account of the neurotic pursuit of glory in Neurosis and Human Growth:

    He will then shift the major part of his energies to the task of molding himself, by a rigid system of inner dictates, into a being of absolute perfection. For nothing short of godlike perfection can fulfill his idealized image of himself and satisfy his pride in the exalted attributes which (so he feels) he has, could have, or should have...Self-idealization, in its various aspects, is what I suggest calling a comprehensive neurotic solution—i.e., a solution not only for a particular conflict but one that implicitly promises to satisfy all the inner needs that have been in an individual at a given time...Moreover, it promises not only a riddance from his painful and unbearable feelings (feeling lost, anxious, inferior, and divided), but in addition an ultimately mysterious fulfillment of himself and his life. No wonder, then, that when he believes he has found such a solution he clings to it for dear life. No wonder that, to use a good psychiatric term, it becomes compulsive. — Karen Horney

    The mystic seeks self-perfection via a system of psychical focus and emotional exuberance and temperance; whereas the neurotic-psychotic seeks self-perfection via a delusional vision of godlike attributes precariously superimposed on the mundane self.
  • Deletedmemberzc
    2.5k
    I have spent around three decades working with people (generally in psycho-social and addiction settings) who have various forms of psychotic illness - most typically schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder and bi-polar disorder - many of whom were/are untreated.Tom Storm

    I admire this vocation and the important work you're doing for these suffering psychonauts.

    I've been a student of psychology for twenty-five years, now pursuing a license in psychotherapy. I had a rather slight undiagnosed schizoid personality disorder (I believe) in my early twenties (twenty years ago) and my fascination with Modernist literature and art led me to Louis A. Sass's scholarly work, Madness and Modernism - a profound and fascinating explication of the link between schizophrenic experience and the mores and mannerisms of Modernist artistic production. Plenty of first-hand accounts from inordinately articulate and intellectual schizophrenics in this illuminating tome.

    I've no doubt Madness and Modernism will be quoted extensively below.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Being a mystic does not preclude her also being a schizophrenic or vice versa.180 Proof

    Remember Lewis's trilemma: Either Jesus was Lunatic or Liar or Lord.

    That says a lot, doesn't it?

    Mythomania, Psychosis and Divine (mysticism included) are all viable hypotheses for Jesus (religious experiences).

    However, studies show that those who are mysticism-oriented aren't mentally unstable - they tend to have jobs, families, friends, no criminal records, and have never been diagnosed with a mental affliction.

    That said, temporal lobe epilepsy is strongly correlated with mystical experiences.

    That is to say, mysticism is an organic brain disorder that can be simulated via psychedelics and/or so-called (deep) meditation.

    Fun fact: Brain ECG in meditation looks more like ECG when asleep than when awake. Interesting, oui?
  • Deletedmemberzc
    2.5k
    In describing the preliminary stages of a schizophrenic break - termed the Trema by German psychiatrist Klaus Conrad - Sass writes:

    Reality seems to be unveiled as never before, and the visual world looks peculiar and eerie - weirdly beautiful, tantalizingly significant, or perhaps horrifying in some insidious but ineffable way...Fascinated by this vision, the patient often stares intently at the world ...demonstrating the "truth-taking stare"...a relatively normal perception is perceived as having a special kind of meaning...Patients in these moments may have a feeling "of crystal-clear sight, of profound penetration into the essence of things.... — Sass - Madness and Modernism, p. 43-44
    (bolds mine - to underscore the link to mysticism, which I take to be obvious)

    *A kind of open-eyed meditation?


    The Trema I take to reflect a preliminary unveiling suffered by a mind caught off-guard, unprepared for the mystic heights: Joseph Campbell's "waters" in which the mystic swims and the schizophrenic drowns.
  • Deletedmemberzc
    2.5k
    Either Jesus was Lunatic or Liar or Lord.Agent Smith

    I do remember that one. I would say part lunatic, part lord.

    Part lunatic in that he took himself to be god's gift to humankind - in his own words to the woman at the well.

    Part lord in light of his wisdom and poetic genius.
  • Deletedmemberzc
    2.5k
    Brain ECG in meditation looks more like ECG when asleep than when awake.Agent Smith

    This is precisely how deep meditative states feel: a movement toward sleep and dream while retaining full to partial conscious awareness. (I've been an avid meditator for more than 20 years.)
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