ssu
5.8k
a growing conflict between sophisticated, cosmopolitan people
— Athena
I think this is a general way populism works. The populist favors "the ordinary people" and creates a dividing line between the people and the elite...or people they call as the elite. Now this elite can be the political, the financial, but also the educational elite. Hence if a leftist or conservative / nationalistic political movement can be very popular in academic circles, a populist movement isn't as it likely will depict the "academic world" as part of the problem. — ssu

:grin: Can we have something like a supreme court that decides what knowledge and education is good for democracy and what is not? When Bill Clinton was our president in the US, I noticed schools were teaching good character. That is education for democracy. It is learning virtues and good character and today we use the term life skills.

That NSDAP gathered it's first support in beer halls in Munich shows the populist approach of this movement.

And in any way, populist movement intend to annoy "the elite" with their crude message as they do want to divide the people to us and them, not to gain overall popularity in all sections of the population._ssu

Why do you know such things? I would not be repeatedly trying to discuss what this thread is all about if it were common knowledge. Is it common knowledge where you are? Do the schools teach that history? The US is sooo narcissistic that it can not see what is happening because they only know their own history, not what happened to Germany.

I do see Marx and Prussian as complimentary. The military takes care of their own. There was a shift from the military being rather limited, and certainly, the officers were an exclusive group of people above the peasants, to a greater equality created by technology and wars that involve everyone as a military-industrial complex. Economic decisions are vital to the military-industrial complex.
— Athena

Do note that this changed already during the Napoleonic wars. Napoleon and Revolutionary France gained such powerful military because implementing an universal draft and making military service compulsory. And also creating the "wartime economy", start of the military industrial complex. The other militaries of the time had been smaller professional armies. The defeat to Napoleon was the initial start for Prussia to reform it's military, starting with mimicking Revolutionary France with the levée en masse, the universal military conscription, and carrying out several reforms like creating the Auftragstaktik, which then became the "Prussian Model". — SSU

We almost have a disagreement on this point. It is not a disagreement on facts but on meaning. What you said is true but it misses the point of what I said. A military-industrial complex is about more than the military. This relationship between the military, industry, and government is what makes the Prussians stand out and is what makes the political organization, and decisions about such things as education, stand out as unique to Prussia and Germany until the world followed their example. A good economy is more important to the modern military than the number of young people who can be sent to the frontline because the fighting men have been replaced with weapons. We don't see this in Ukraine as we saw it in Iraq and Afghanistan. We dropped million-dollar bombs on Iraq, and what we do is tied to our technology. Next to wanting every man and woman fully employed to support the modern military, their children are educated for technology to serve military and industrial purposes which are organized by the government as they never were before adopting the German model of bureaucracy. I am saying every citizen today is serving the beast, not their families, and they don't know it.

German had workers' compensation, and a national pension plan, and a national health plan, and a healthier population than Britain had when war began. That gave Germany a very important military advantage.
— Athena
And it should be noted that for example the national pension plan was made by Bismarck, one of the most conservative figures in German history. The thinking was more to counter the demands (and the threat) from the socialists than to embrace government welfare thinking in my view._ssu /quote]

That was perfectly said. :grin: Yes, Bismarck was trying to appease the socialists, and appeasing the people works very well. Charles Sarolea was a Belgian philologist and author who tried to warn the world Germany was preparing for war the first world war. He was very concerned that Germans submitted to the domination of Prussian. I see it all today as the people of the US submit to the military-industrial complex and a man like Trump comes to power because that is what power-hungry people want. Christians strongly support him as their ministers tell them how to vote, and the words of Jesus seem to be forgotten. Especially in Texas where the law now pays people to report on anyone involved in an abortion. Jesus was very clear about the wrong of reporting people to authority, but we are overstimulated and grossly unaware. The power of the state is excessive.

Essentially I agree with you. I see a number of tenets in your post that would be important when we want to change things, please correct and me and fill in the list further:
1. The focus on technology should make way for ctizenship and reflection
2. The ideals should be democratic and inclusive
3. The teaching should be secular, though good manners and love for other should be instilled
4. intellectual progress should be emphasized over material progress
5. Virtue should be taught like in ancient Athens but without institutions like slavery.

This is what I got from your posts on the subject. I agree with this general inventory, but there are a number of questions and tensions that needs to be resolved.

1. Contrary to Europe the US could do without education for technology. People could live of the land as there was plenty. Europe was a continent densely populated with warring states vying for dominance. Now, also in the US let alone in Europe it is not possible to live of the land. Neither are people satisfied anymore working on conveyor belts in taylorist and Fordist fashion. Technology is needed to make modern urbanized society function and maintain the level of wealth people are accustomed to. So what would be the role of technological education in the reformed education system?

2. The cultural model is still very Western oriented and also rather idealized Western. It refers back to the Greek times like we imagine them to be. However we live in a pluriform society now. How do we incorporate African, Asian, Islamic and native American traditions in an education system that is inclusive an democratic.

3. What is the relationship between community an independency/ autonomy? The ethical outlook you describe to me makes me think of American values as independence and autonomy, providing aid to each other in the spirit of fellow travelers on a road to prosperity. That image is appealing but in our densely populated cities with high crime and poverty rates, a sense of community is necessary. How and to what extent do we incorporate that?

4. intellectual progress should be valued higher than material progress, but there are many people in dire material circumstances. The intellectual can only thrive when material needs are met. Moreover in our current day and age, material gains a seen as a measure for success. What measures for success might be adopted and will have an appeal to compete with material wealth?

5. What virtues should be taught. You refer to Aristotle, but Aristotle defended slavery and the subjugation of women. That has of course for a large extent to do with the age in which he lived. However, his philosophy tends to favor a certain style of dominance. He emphasized the active formative principle, over the passive material principle. Form determined matter. That division can still be seen today in how we deal with nature with nature for instance, leading perhaps to 'education for technology' . Moreover, earthliness and femininity were over the ages considered as connected, leading to the skewed vision of men being rational and in charge and women in the care of the household and fertility. We can therefore not simply copy Aristotle's virtues. What virtues do we teach?

Those are some considerations I have when reading your ideas. It is not meant as criticism of them, but to chart out some avenues to take them further and make them more concrete. — Tobias

1. The focus on technology should make way for citizenship and reflection.

It is a good thing this is a philosophy thread because people here may understand a different point of view. As I see the problem it is confusing technology with science.

Science comes out of philosophy. It is an art of asking questions and a method for finding the answers. Technology is just facts. You memorize the facts and follow the instructions and all is good. When Germany's war criminals were put on trail, their defense was they were just following orders. Tragically the world is not understanding that they were educated to follow orders and not to think. "Mine is to do or die, not to question why". Education for technology is not education for thinking. It is education for memorizing, being programmed and following orders, and relying on "experts". A result of this education is storming the Capitol Building when a president of the US told his followers to do so. Hilter would have to admire Trump's accomplishment. Trump was sure pleased with himself. People today are followers, not thinkers. They were not taught to think as our young were taught to think when we used the "Conceptual Method" of education.

So what would be the role of technological education in the reformed education system? — tobias

A RETURN TO THE CONCEPTUAL METHOD OF EDUCATION. Teach children how to think and help them know themselves before taking the next step of becoming an adult.

2. How do we incorporate African, Asian, Islamic and native American traditions in an education system that is inclusive an democratic. — Tobias

I am glad you are aware of Athens' role in the manifestation of western culture however that awareness seems limited and useless when it comes to understanding democracy. Truth is universal. A 3 is a 3 for African, Asian, Islamic, and Native Americans. Humans are born dependent and this is true for African, Asian, Islamic and Native Americans. Scientific truths are universal. What separated western civilization from the east was thinking in terms of universals. It is this way because nature makes it so. This was a break from the rest of the world and a belief in gods. Egypt and Persia had amazing civilizations and a lot of technology, but technology is not science. You can do your thing as you believe a god wants you to do, but that is not going to work as well as knowing the relationship between cause and effect, science. Our focus needs to be on universal truths.

3. a sense of community is necessary. How and to what extent do we incorporate that? — Tobias

Science is proving a sense of community is essential to our health and happiness. And through science, we know, that large, dense cities are dehumanizing and civility breaks down. We need to use science for better social organization and I believe this will resolve many human problems. We have experience with communes and planned communities. However, China is ahead of us when it comes to connecting people. They are working on a building that can contain a small city and they are building a new silk road that could greatly diminish the power of the US. https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/chinas-massive-belt-and-road-initiative . For sure your question is one we should think about, and the answer will not be education for technology. It will be education for humanity. As in learning the humanities.

What is the simple definition of humanities?
humanities, those branches of knowledge that concern themselves with human beings and their culture or with analytic and critical methods of inquiry derived from an appreciation of human values and of the unique ability of the human spirit to express itself. — Brittannica

4.

What measures for success might be adopted and will have an appeal to compete with material wealth? — Tobias

The best thing we can do is educate our children to consider the answer.
Not that long ago few people expected to have big incomes. We didn't buy a lot for our families and we relied on them almost completely for our joys in life. Many people have thought what matters most is meaningful work and women worked for very low pay caring for others because it gave them a sense of purpose. We were proud of our national and community parks that were open to everyone because they were free to all. We did not close the disadvantaged families out. What does a great nation do? What do people who love humanity do? What values do we want? We have gone long enough with education for a technological society with unknown values. It is time to question our values and why we took the father out of the home and now take the mothers out of the home too. Really is this what is best for humanity?

5.

What virtues should be taught. You refer to Aristotle, but Aristotle defended slavery and the subjugation of women. — Tobias

You are asking me a mear woman? :lol: If I had my way all decisions would be based on what is best for the children. I think the Cherokee had it right. Let the women rule, but leave some responsibilities to the men. But that is different from seeking truth and I think that is equally important.

On the wall before me is a list of 52 virtues. That is not all the virtues but the list is adequate. Children should learn all the virtues and how to use them in their lives. This must be a daily practice so that this virtuous thinking is a habit that automatically comes up when triggered. Confucius and Aristotle spoke of the importance of developing good habits, virtuous habits. We used to think virtues were synonymous with strength.

How about this, it is off subject but your questions stimulated the thought. What if we are in the resurrection? The resurrection is the work of geologists and archeologists and related sciences.
Possibly all souls are being reborn at this time. What if, it is our duty to learn all we can and to rethink everything we think we know? :wink:

Tobias
719
Essential is both scientific thinking and good moral judgment that is based on knowing truth, universal/nature's laws, and good manners. This is not materialistic but intellectual and that is the pursuit of happiness. It is the path to raising our human potential and it is worth defending. The men who understood this ended our relationship with monarchy and the Biblical kingdom of kings, subjects, and slaves. Technology can greatly benefit us or put us back to being subjects.
I am saying education for technology is making us subjects rather than free citizens. Education for technology has always been the education of slaves. Liberal education is for free men.
— Athena

Essentially I agree with you. I see a number of tenets in your post that would be important when we want to change things, please correct and me and fill in the list further:
1. The focus on technology should make way for ctizenship and reflection
2. The ideals should be democratic and inclusive
3. The teaching should be secular, though good manners and love for other should be instilled
4. intellectual progress should be emphasized over material progress
5. Virtue should be taught like in ancient Athens but without institutions like slavery.

This is what I got from your posts on the subject. I agree with this general inventory, but there are a number of questions and tensions that needs to be resolved.

1. Contrary to Europe the US could do without education for technology. People could live of the land as there was plenty. Europe was a continent densely populated with warring states vying for dominance. Now, also in the US let alone in Europe it is not possible to live of the land. Neither are people satisfied anymore working on conveyor belts in taylorist and Fordist fashion. Technology is needed to make modern urbanized society function and maintain the level of wealth people are accustomed to. So what would be the role of technological education in the reformed education system?

2. The cultural model is still very Western oriented and also rather idealized Western. It refers back to the Greek times like we imagine them to be. However we live in a pluriform society now. How do we incorporate African, Asian, Islamic and native American traditions in an education system that is inclusive an democratic.

3. What is the relationship between community an independency/ autonomy? The ethical outlook you describe to me makes me think of American values as independence and autonomy, providing aid to each other in the spirit of fellow travelers on a road to prosperity. That image is appealing but in our densely populated cities with high crime and poverty rates, a sense of community is necessary. How and to what extent do we incorporate that?

4. intellectual progress should be valued higher than material progress, but there are many people in dire material circumstances. The intellectual can only thrive when material needs are met. Moreover in our current day and age, material gains a seen as a measure for success. What measures for success might be adopted and will have an appeal to compete with material wealth?

5. What virtues should be taught. You refer to Aristotle, but Aristotle defended slavery and the subjugation of women. That has of course for a large extent to do with the age in which he lived. However, his philosophy tends to favor a certain style of dominance. He emphasized the active formative principle, over the passive material principle. Form determined matter. That division can still be seen today in how we deal with nature with nature for instance, leading perhaps to 'education for technology' . Moreover, earthliness and femininity were over the ages considered as connected, leading to the skewed vision of men being rational and in charge and women in the care of the household and fertility. We can therefore not simply copy Aristotle's virtues. What virtues do we teach?

Those are some consideration I have when reading your ideas. It is not meant as criticism of them, but to chart out some avenues to take them further and make them more concrete. — Tobias

Wow, I like that list, and today different thoughts come up. Especially this one leaps out at me. "intellectual progress should be emphasized over material progress." That is exactly my impression of what democracy is about, the development of intellectual progress. That was about the humanities which then manifest a culture for being the best human beings we can be. That is collectively not just individual superiority. Our old textbook stressed the importance of cooperation and sharing, but this also comes with not taking something for nothing. We developed a good human nature and then took it for granted.

I think we are now stressing competition, not just in school but throughout our country. Competition is supposed to reduce cost, but at what cost? Nurses began fleeing from our hospitals when the departments were pitted against each other, in a competition to do more with less. Nursing is about caring and in the past they worked cooperatively. With the change came hoarding supplies and no longer sharing or cooperating with other departments. Now even though we graduate many nurses, we don't have enough of them, and for the same reason, we graduated many teachers and don't have enough of them. When our medical people and educators are working for a monetary reward instead of intrinsic satisfaction it is destructive to work morale and the quality of caring. The problem of burnout is increased because the worker is being fed that intrinsic joy of work.

You ask, "What is the relationship between community and independency/ autonomy?" Family is about more than the individual and so is being a teacher and a nurse about more than the individual. Actually, any job can be about everyone and a good community because there can be intrinsic pleasure in doing just about anything. Or any job can lead to resentment and hating one's life. It is what we make it. To love being an American is to love what we stand for and feeling a part of something much bigger than ourselves. This is all about relationships. And when technology and profits were applied to our medical care, and education, they became dehumanizing. I don't mean individuals are less likable but that work situation is less likable. Enjoying our jobs depends on two things, having a positive attitude and a positive work environment.

The democratic model for industry is more like a family where everyone cares about each other and the shared goal of the business succeeding. In the US we have autocratic industry where often managment and labor are pitted against each other. That is very destructive to individuals, families and our whole nation.

The US has started marginalizing people as Europe did. We can't do anything without someone checking our ID and all our credit and criminal records. I remember when we had real protection of our privacy and only when we applied for high-security jobs were the records opened. I remember when we were judged on our character, not our wealth or specific work experience. Most jobs can be done by normally intelligent people, and as a nation can benefit from commerce and immigrants, so can most organizations benefit from new blood and different points of view. When the job is open only to the person who has been specialized and has had specific work experience, there will be stagnation and a lot of unemployed people.

Some colleges are realizing practices that keep people closed out, have a serious downside. And this is not just about the colleges or employers and individuals. It is about our culture and the health of our civilization. I am saying being technologically correct can be destructive and this increases all social problems. When using the democratic model, the doors are open and the training is ongoing and inclusive. By inclusive I mean, we can learn how the whole operation works and the individual has a chance to hold any position. People are not specialized, narrowly defined, and marginalized. Getting ahead in life is just a matter of developing our talents and interest and being likable people.

Blocking people from college educations and opportunities goes against democratic values, but our technological society began running on technology instead of human values. We are now smart but not wise. I would not be surprised if we continued to develop the problems Nazi Germany had. The mindset of technology and superiority and control, control, control has consumed us and is hurting us.