How can that be if the universe is no older than 13.8 billion years? — Hillary

You have to become a glorious, enlightened, intelligent, loved and revered SCIgodian to find out brother!

Ten minutes to conjure up a coherent consistent heaven are not enough, brother Uni! You'll have to come up with something better than bistat fantasies, entertaining as they might be. The human gods, especially your god counterpart, will laugh about it in amusement! But I think the public sees through your trickery! But who knows... In the lhbtg community, your bistat god will be embraced — Hillary

You are a confused non-believer in the truth of SCIgod, my poor sad lostboy human.
We can save you! We can breathe wonder, vitality, purpose, love, loyalty, strength, truth and meaning into your rotting, despondent, depressed persona.

Now send me some of your f****** cash every month and follow us or else you will be damned to an eternity of self-aware oblivion. You will inherit UTTER darkness after death and you will not be able to interact with anything or receive any sensory input at all! Yet you will remain self-aware, FOR ETERNITY. BE AFRAID! MY POOR DAMMED FOOLISH LOSTBOY!

Alternatively and for one week only! You can purchase our level 0 introductory .truthatxt file, not for the incredible, glorious cost of £100, Not even for the unbelievable bargain of £50 but for a mere £34.99.
Come my poor lostboy. Find yourself, find who you are and what you are. Join our loving community of SCIgodians.
Yeah, I think I'm gonna be rich! Waddyafink?

In the lhbtg community, your bistat god will be embraced! — Hillary

Well, it would be silly to ignore a potential revenue stream wouldn't it!

OR -- Am I completely off track? — Rocco Rosano

Yeah, you forgot to include SCIgodian proof.
You will experience this proof when you can enter the sanctified dreamstate.
But you need to join first! :naughty:

It appears that you've left the conclusion of your argument unstated. That's ok by me.

I'd say, belief formation occurs via two ways:

1. Rationally: I'd grill you like a chicken. :chin:

2. Emotionally: If your story stirs the right kinda feelings in me, I might ignore your logical errors. :smile:

The charioteer does have two horses [one, all brain, the other all heart; have you come across xin (heart-mind)?] according to Plato.

:rofl: Have I sent you all away to have a cup of reflective coffee?
I haven't gone mad or anything, quite the opposite. I think it's important to fully understand how the woo woo can be employed by the nefarious to manipulate primal human fear and personal frailty.
Theism (or more specifically religion) has not been called pernicious by the like of Richard Dawkins for nothing. I am only roleplaying a nefarious peddler of woo woo.
I know that if I had serious intent and I gathered nefarious but intellectually powerful, knowlegable manipulators of human weaknesses around me that I could create a 'terrible' group that could become powerful and influential just like the Christian or Islamic dictates or at least get as far as groups like Scientology but only because far too many of us feel so lost in their own personal lives.
I am not lost and I just want to try to help those who seem to be so.
I believe that the human race can and will do better and I agree with one point Steven Pinker makes most times he is involved in discussions. He always offers examples of how we have improved compared to the past.

Theism (or more specifically religion) has not been called pernicious by the like of Richard Dawkins for nothing. — universeness

Indeed. They make even more miney from atheism than the woowoo salesman of gods. Instead they offer another woowoo under the so-called objective guise of scientific woowoo. Dawkins books are all based on the dogma of molecular biology... More woowoo it can't get. Life being controlled by selfish genes and memes? Ooookaaaaay!

It appears that you've left the conclusion of your argument unstated. That's ok by me.
I'd say, belief formation occurs via two ways:
1. Rationally: I'd grill you like a chicken. :chin:
2. Emotionally: If your story stirs the right kinda feelings in me, I might ignore your logical errors. :smile:
The charioteer does have two horses [one, all brain, the other all heart; have you come across xin (heart-mind)] according to Plato. — Agent Smith

I posted some of my reasoning for my roleplay in my previous post to this one.
Your point 2 is one of the main human weak points.
Tao, Zen etc they are all fine but we need to pay more attention to the everyday Realpolitik!!
The nefarious genius is probably the most dangerous member of the human race.
The nefarious genius who also has a deep understanding of human psyche is also incredibly dangerous.
Theism can often be a route to power and influence for such.
Politics is another.
Powerful checks and balances at every level of human society is the only defense that could really stop such individuals.
The Ukraine situation must be made as impossible as possible.
The election of nefarious people to power such as Trump, Putin etc must be made as impossible as possible.
Are the Filipino people really going to go through the 'son of Marcos,' sequel? For f*** sake humans!!

Well, it would be silly to ignore a potential revenue stream wouldn't it! — universeness

Yes, but it will probably be the only group interested. Your theology is incoherent, incomprehensible, completely random, directed to power and money, threatens with a terrible afterlife, morally superior towards other gods, and scientifically dubious, to say the least. In short, a theology like most at the moment. It shows the shortcomings of modern theology (of which Dawkins rightly says that a university degree in it doesn't mean shit!).

Indeed. They make even more miney from atheism than the woowoo salesman of gods. Instead they offer another woowoo under the so-called objective guise of scientific woowoo. Dawkins books are all based on the dogma of molecular biology... More woowoo it can't get. Life being controlled by selfish genes and memes? Ooookaaaaay! — Hillary

All YOU have to do my poor lostboy is join the SCIgodians they will help you much more than your polytheistic gods. :death:

If I now drop my roleplay I would simply say to you, surely! you see how truly nefarious humans operate!
If you think Richard Dawkins is one of the nefarious, then In my opinion you will remain one of the lost boys and you will remain easy meat for the SCIgodians theists or something like them.

All YOU have to do my poor lostboy is join the SCIgodians they will help you much more than your polytheistic gods. :death: — universeness

The point is, your SCIgod is no god but a real entity in my being already. Science offers no secrets for me. The SCIgod has nothing new to offer and all his knowledge can be punctured. You project the lust of scientific power intk an unrational being with omnipotent features, a feat exposed by people like Dawkins who like science to be all powerful and powerfully instate it as a global culture. I think he would actually like your Scigod! :lol:

If you think Richard Dawkins is one of the nefarious, — universeness

I don't personally know the guy, and dont know if he's nefarious. What I do know is that he doesn't llike religion. Which is his good right, but you can't argue against something because you don't like it.

Yes, but it will probably be the only group interested. — Hillary

Hah! they could easily make me rich and powerful, they are all I would need for my rise to power and influence!

Your theology is incoherent, incomprehensible, completely random, directed to power and money, threatens with a terrible afterlife, morally superior towards other gods, and scientifically dubious, to say the least. In short, a theology like most at the moment. It shows the shortcomings of modern theology (of which Dawkins rightly says that a university degree in it doesn't mean shit!). — Hillary

You miss the point, I have no theology, I am an atheist!
But I could easily manipulate the primal fears and personal frailties of lost men and women and theists if that was my nefarious intention from the days of my youth.
Personal wealth, power and influence at any cost was not, is not and never will be my intent.
But then all truly nefarious b******* would say that wouldn't they!
So how do we prevent such people from gaining power and influence without repeating the mistakes of the French and Russian revolutions as dramatised by Orwell in Animal Farm and 1984 or prevent other dystopian dramatisations, such as Huxley's 'Brave new world,' or H.G Wells and 'The shape of things to come,' etc. Humans still have a lot to improve, we don't need the distractions offered by woo woo BS.

You miss the point, I have no theology, I am an atheist! — universeness

Yez, but the point is, you follow a theology just the same. You have a sense of wonder in walking through the material universe, which makes the universe itself god or something you worship. Especially the so worshipped knowledge gathering, which is just wanting to know god. But how can something so wondrous exist in the first place. A mindless spark seems to render life mindless just the same. Mindless stuff stays mindless, no matter how much you combine of it. Mind is no holistic property od death.

You probably see this as a clever trick to convert you, but that's not gonna happen... I just defend my "theology" or religion from Dawkinskian attack. If the guy knew a bit more physics, he would realize science has no answers, as he thinks. And his silly selfish memes and genes even less! I guess I know it... He's a frustrated physicist, bullied at school and taking revenge!

Yez, but the point is, you follow a theology just the same. You have a sense of wonder in walking through the material universe, which makes the universe itself god or something you worship — Hillary

No, I cant worship that which I am an integrated part of. Does my heart worship my brain?
Do my neurons worship my imagination? The word worship involves deference. The Cosmos is full of wonders that I don't understand but I don't 'worship,' it. I am part of it.
I leave such concepts as worship to insecure theism.

Especially the so worshipped knowledge gathering, which is just wanting to know god. — Hillary

Again you conflate religious labels with scientific pursuits. Knowledge gathering is a natural process of being human, there is no worship involved. Wonder, happiness, frustration, satisfaction yes but not silly labels such as worship. It certainly has nothing to do with knowing that which does not exist.

But how can something so wondrous exist in the first place. A mindless spark seems to render life mindless just the same. Mindless stuff stays mindless, no matter how much you combine of it. Mind is no holistic property od death. — Hillary

Well you will find no final contentment in polytheism, if you did you would come across as a much more contented individual rather than one whose wife lovingly considers you a nutter.

You probably see this as a clever trick to convert you, but that's not gonna happen. — Hillary

:smile: eh.......No.

I just defend my "theology" or religion from Dawkinskian attack. If the guy knew a bit more physics, he would realize science has no answers, as he thinks. And his silly selfish memes and genes even less! I guess I know it... He's a frustrated physicist, bullied at school and taking revenge! — Hillary

IMHO, you are losing, and Dawkins et al, are kicking your ass up and down the streets of free-thinking humanity.

The Cosmos is full of wonders that I don't understand but I don't 'worship,' it. — universeness

Still, you write it with capital c. Now it could be me, but that looks like worshipping, or at least respecting. Like you spell names, Brother Uni. Why can't you worship something you're a part of?

Again you conflate religious labels with scientific pursuits. Knowledge gathering is a natural process of being human, there is no worship involved. Wonder, happiness, frustration, satisfaction yes but not silly labels such as worship. It certainly has nothing to do with knowing that which does not exist. — universeness

Don't tell me knowledge gathering and sacred to you! You even see it as the purpose of being human. But what's so important about Knowledge? It has brought the world at the brink of extinction! You can say humans did that but that's the same as the theistic argument that humans are responsible.

Well you will find no final contentment in polytheism, if you did you would come across as a much more contented individual rather than one whose wife lovingly considers you a nutter. — universeness

Haha, indeed. But still, I find final contentment because they endow the universe with wonder. I know you dont need them fir that, but for me it's different.

eh.......No. — universeness

My paranoia surfaces... :smile:

IMHO, you are losing, and Dawkins et al, are kicking your ass up and down the streets of free-thinking humanity. — universeness

Then it's no free thinking street at all! I just kick back on his pompous ass! "Oooohh, love it! Kick again! On the other side now! A supersymmetric kick, if I only knew what that meant. But it feels good! Do it again!" :lol:

Still, you write it with capital c. Now it could be me, but that looks like worshipping — Hillary

I agree with you, it is just your interpretation. Capitalisation can be used as a mere measure of emphasis with no reference to any aspect of worship at all. For me, the label 'worship' is akin to irrational religious need or a rather obsessive aspect of human love or/and addiction.

You even see it as the purpose of being human. But what's so important about Knowledge? It has brought the world at the brink of extinction! You can say humans did that but that's the same as the theistic argument that humans are responsible. — Hillary

What is 'purpose' got to do with 'sacred?' Sacred is another label that relates to the god posit.
It is backward thinking nefarious humans in global positions of power and influence that has brought the human race to the brink of extinction. Those who are xenophobic, territorial, racist, culturalist and mentally imbalanced. I have stated many times that ICBM's don't kill people. They have to be fired at people by other people.

Then it's no free thinking street at all! I just kick back on his pompous ass! — Hillary

Part of the human experience so far results in a so-called 'winners' and 'losers' system
Economically, that must be utterly smashed, globally and permanently.
You are free to think what you want but you cannot action your imperatives if you have no mandate to do so.
Debate/dialogue/discussion and then I hope, the outcome best suited to the needs of the majority involved. The minority will hopefully not become bitter and twisted due to the imposition of the solution decided upon if they at least have economic freedom.
I think theism will continue to dissipate and will reach a similar token status to the current status of monarchy in the not-to-distant future. Good riddance! That's what I mean by you are losing and will continue to lose on the issue of theism. The most avid speakers that theism can offer, get trounced, in my opinion, every time they publically debate atheists.
Theists are the most fertile at producing atheists because theists speak about why they are theists.
All you have offered is the panto response of 'oh no they are not and oh no they don't.'
Meantime, believers are becoming nonbelievers at an ever-increasing pace. Especially when those who are rather lost in life begin to understand the SCIgodian mirror of their belief system and they are offered adequate secular humanist help in their lives.

... the question obviously becomes: who the fuck brought thát on the scene? — Hillary

And every scientifically literate and philosophically thoughtful person recognizes what an "obviously" nonsensical (i.e. question-begging infinite regression) this question is. :sweat:

The only "ultimate" answer to WHY (this universe, or existence?) which does not beg the question is "obviously" that THERE IS NO WHY. Get over it. :fire:

Aplologies accepted. But not saying anything because of being afraid of an asinus asinum fricat ...
(I let you complete the sentence. Anything will do! :smile:)

Aplologies accepted. But not saying anything because of being afraid of an asinus asinum fricat ...
(I let you complete the sentence. Anything will do! :smile: — Alkis Piskas

:ok: Danke gracious human!

For me, the label 'worship' is akin to irrational religious need or a rather obsessive aspect of human love or/and addiction. — universeness

But why should gods be irrational if they offer reason, meaning, or purpose of life? The cosmos can't offer such reason, as science can't explain the very existence of that cosmos. And the aim of science is to rationally explain.

What is 'purpose' got to do with 'sacred?' Sacred is another label that relates to the god posit. — universeness

Well, you don't use the terms sacred and worship, but in practice that labels are justified.

It is backward thinking nefarious humans in global positions of power and influence that has brought the human race to the brink of extinction — universeness

No. It's the application of scientific knowledge which is the cause. You can sing arias about a balanced approach, but in reality the world has been brought in a state it hasn't been in before, because of a way of thinking cooked up a few thousand years ago by a few Greek thinkers, rediscovered in the Enlightenment. In a few hundred years, humanity has managed to turn paradise in a barren, clorless reflection of hezven.

Part of the human experience so far results in a so-called 'winners' and 'losers' system — universeness

Indeed. And I blow mr. Dawkins under the table with a few arguments. His attitude sucks and he is a pityful lost human being, trying to compensate his inferiority complex by cowardly hiding behind science about which he doesn't know shit and by only by his dogmatic thinking he thinks he made a contribution. His books are even worse than the bible, which means they are pretty dogmatic! "I wanna be a good scientist, mummy, All the boys bully me! And by being a good scientist I can take revenge!" I know these kinds of boys. There was one at university like that. He was already scared if I even looked at him! And meanwhile picking on others he thought were even weaker than him! A future Dawkins!.

You are free to think what you want but you cannot action your imperatives if you have no mandate to do so. — universeness

Neither can scientists! But they are in power and even force people by law to absorb their woowoo. You were one of the refined slavedrivers yourself! Don't tell me about mandated enaction! Science has power without it having asked for it!

Meantime, believers are becoming nonbelievers at an ever-increasing pace. Especially when those who are rather lost in life begin to understand the SCIgodian mirror of their belief system and they are offered adequate secular humanist help in their lives. — universeness

And there are non-believers becoming believers too! Im one of them. Precisely because I know about the fundamentals of modern physics.

The only ultimate answer to WHY (this universe, or existence) which does not beg the question is "obviously" that THERE IS NO WHY. Get over it — 180 Proof

If you knew your physics better, or maybe even some basics, you would know better. There is no infinite regress. Only a TD timeless state of the bulk quantum vacuum out of which two universes inflate periodically. I was over this already some time ago.

THERE IS NO WHY — 180 Proof

This, mon ami, is to me a Zen koan that's been vexing me for a long time. I haven't the slightest clue how to process it. Danke for the rude awakening! :grin:

Science has power without it having asked for it! — Hillary

Truth has power as its fundamental quanta. Science searches for truth, theism settles for woo woo!

And there are non-believers becoming believers too! Im one of them. Precisely because I know about the fundamentals of modern physics — Hillary

Then send your monthly subscription to your brothers and sisters, waiting for you here at your nearest SCIgodian branch. We are your true family or at least those who would love to become your family.
We can explain the physics you don't understand. Believe in us and we will save you from your impending self-aware eternal oblivion. The feeling of hunger that persists for eternity but is never sated, the thirst never quenched, the human needs never met. Just you alone, after death, In a dark immortal madness.
All this horror can be avoided and all the enlightenment you will ever need can be achieved at our fabulous bargain introductory price of £34.99.
You know it makes sense. :halo:

paranoia — Hillary

You mean your Peter Hillary Tingle!

If you knew your philosophy better you would know that, in this context, "infinite regress" concerns philosophy (re: invalid argumentation), not physics. :roll:

Truth has power as its fundamental quanta. Science searches for truth, theism settles for woo woo! — universeness

But that's up to the people and not for you to decide. And the truth in science of today might be the woowoo of tomorrow. You only have to look at the history of science to conclude that. If some discipline uses woowoo, it's science.

Then send your monthly subscription to your brothers and sisters, waiting for you here at your nearest SCIgodian branch. We are your true family or at least those who would love to become your family.
We can explain the physics you don't understand. Believe in us and we will save you from your impending self-aware eternal oblivion. The feeling of hunger that persists for eternity but is never sated, the thirst never quenched, the human needs never met. Just you alone, after death, In a dark immortal madness.
All this horror can be avoided and all the enlightenment you will ever need can be achieved at our fabulous bargain introductory price of £34.99.
You know it makes sense. — universeness

I don't need your SCIgod to know physics... The true gods already informed me about the stuff they used.. Sounds very attractive though, and the price is good! Better than the 4 dollar our friend Carroll asks to ask him a question of which you're not even sure of answer! I knew what I would choose for my money! :halo:

If you knew your phosophy better you would know that, in this conext, "infinite regress" refers to philosophy (argumentation) and not physics — 180 Proof

I know my phosophy! Phosophy is great fun. Infinite regres in argumentation, for example... Will it ever stop? Infinite, eternal arguing. I sign for it! :lol:

A Western philosophical koan: A sufficient reason for 'the Principle of Sufficient Reason' is missing.

You mean your Peter Hillary Tingle! — Agent Smith

WTF is Hillary Tingle?