• D2OTSSUMMERBUG
    40
    I remember watching a video in which Zizek was giving a lecture. He was thus challenged by an attending student (I don't remember the following conversations by every single word but this was the idea): "There is no empirical knowledge that socialism had ever been successful, which in turn even caused a great number of tragedies. So why are you (Zizek) still a socialist?"

    Zizek first corrected her that he is a communist. His followed arguments were: first, he is never an optimistic communist, that he doesn't really have a solution to the horrible problems these days (at the end of the clip he humorously mentioned "some communists claim that they see light through the dark tunnel. Well I do see light, but it's from just another train coming at us"; second, he believes that major problems like global warming, etc. cannot be solved by the free market or the nation-states (here he added that he was not a populist either, unlike some 20th Century dictators that used popular thoughts and force); and third, China has witnessed a growth whose rate was never achieved by western capitalism - which implies a certain power that capitalism is not capable of (I don't really agree here. For what I've known the economic growth should instead be attributed to the introduction of the market in the 70s). What Zizek did not bring up, at least in the clip I watched, was the theoretical proof that communism is practicable, but I figure that if he could give such proof, he would not call himself "pessimistic" in the first place.

    Now, the problem is, assuming that capitalism (or any other form of politico-economic structure), no matter how it evolves, will still have internal, fundamental, self-destructive properties, what is the reason that some like Zizek hold on to pessimistic communism, but not just pessimism? Of course, one can argue that communism has not been given enough chances yet, etc. But given our past experience, will the price not be too high for it to fail again? Zizek himself once quoted Walter Benjamin "behind every fascism there is a failed revolution".

    I find a common incompatibility of ideological differences among leftists who often accuse each other as non-leftist -- to me nothing is more horrendous than when one of such incompatible ideologies becomes popular and the majority becomes prompted to suppress and eradicate the minor existences (often then accused as a drag against progress). To a certain extent, market is a mitigated form of this majority suppression in which money as media buffers the huge discrepancy in work values based on popular demands -- I don't see the possibility that this problem can be solved so long as social structure continues existing, though.

    I understand that it is hard to embrace life without purpose and meaning. But whenever a meaning or purpose is created, dialectically there has to be some reasonable counteraction with the meaning and we fall into the endless cycle of creating and destroying meanings that don't even necessarily exist in the first place. Does that not lead to simply, pessimism?
  • god must be atheist
    5.1k
    I agree. Further to your thoughts, I would like to offer this: In the entire history of mankind (social, societal history) all good ideas eventually turned into bad ideas. Like you said communism is a failed idea; but at one point it was a very good idea.

    Some examples:

    The ransacking of gold of the Mezoamerican cultures was looked at as a good idea by the Spainish and Portuguesh cultures. "We are rich!" Who does not want to be rich? Because they were rich, they failed keeping in pace with the industrial forging ahead of the rest of Europe, and eventually both countries sank into relative poverty.

    The importing of hard working, free labour from Africa into the British colonies. Free labour!! A capitalist's dream. The problems ensuing from it precipitated a bloody war and a lifetime of suffering for many people.

    The potatoes to to feed the Irish! Hey, here's a good idea. Until the potato famine.

    Let's create religion that helps the poor! the poor have stayed, the religion was changed very quickly to expoit the poor, and get everyone to shit on them.

    Let's split up a religion to get rid of some of elements that are false beliefs!! Enabling ideologies to wage wars.

    Let's create a vehicle of value exchange that will make trade easier. It has become the root of all evil.

    Let's plant grains and eat the harvest and feed livestock with it, instead of scouring the land randomly for food and occasionally finding success by finding a fresh carcass or killing a herbivore. Much food for everyone! Result: overpopulation crisis, water shortage, food shortage, wars.

    ETC.

    It is hard to be consistently happy about any instance of human progress as a good thing in and by itself.

    Pessimism is just the naturally logical extrapolation of expecting bad things to come from good things.
  • schopenhauer1
    10k
    Pessimism is just the naturally logical extrapolation of expecting bad things to come from good things.god must be atheist

    A conclusion that makes sense is that it is better not to procreate more badness into the world then. A progress that devolves into pessimism, can take the form that life simply isn’t worth it, and ethically problematic to spread to another person.
  • Deleted User
    -1
    Now, the problem is, assuming that capitalism (or any other form of politico-economic structure), no matter how it evolves, will still have internal, fundamental, self-destructive properties, what is the reason that some like Zizek hold on to pessimistic communism, but not just pessimism? Of course, one can argue that communism has not been given enough chances yet, etc. But given our past experience, will the price not be too high for it to fail again? Zizek himself once quoted Walter Benjamin "behind every fascism there is a failed revolution".D2OTSSUMMERBUG

    So, a couple of things are the issue. The first being that the term "Capitalism" and "politico-economic structure" are mutually exclusive terms by modern definition, and until leftists of all stripes understand that, they're never going to see what is stopping them from having their communes all over the world. Secondly, we're swimming in examples of different ways to interpret the socialist model, that have led to the slaughter of countless people, primarily because of not understanding the first thing I mentioned; namely that states and economic models when merged are contradictory entities, distinguished by self-funding through theft an expropriation and monopoly on violence. China is a perfect example of only having the wealth they have generated by expanding some property rights to its citizens and openning their economy to trade with America, that'd be the work of Nixon starting 1971. China de-communized slowly, but not entirely, that's why they have their wealth. However, I wouldn't be so optimistic about them.

    I understand that it is hard to embrace life without purpose and meaning. But whenever a meaning or purpose is created, dialectically there has to be some reasonable counteraction with the meaning and we fall into the endless cycle of creating and destroying meanings that don't even necessarily exist in the first place. Does that not lead to simply, pessimism?D2OTSSUMMERBUG

    The answer to this question, in all seriousness, will be found with the answering of a single question one can ask oneself: Am I the generator of my own meaning, by my own standards, for my own reasons, or not?
    If the answer is no, then you will forever be caught in the endles dialectical cycle which you speak of. I, on the other hand, do not require pipe-dreams of the kind described above. Zizek is right to be pessimistic about communism, as such a system is only possible via voluntary participation, and such participation can only be achieved through Free Markets, which do not exist. Dirigsme is the cloud that blots out all possiblity of radical change, while keeping most people thinking it is a contest between Capitalism and Communism. It isn't.

    Nota bene: He's actually wrong about the Fascism bit. Behind ever Fascism is a successful populist revolution, predicated almost exclusively on Socialist principles, or some variation of. Remember, Hitler, Mussolini, Mao, even Kim il sung, were all men desired by the people as leaders. Hitler and Sung were actually elected. Just some thought.
  • universeness
    6.3k

    You offer an interesting synopsis of the history of left wing politics or mainly exemplification of some of the various ways that communism has been interpreted/applied historically, by certain settlements of people but on the 'pessimism' aspect and without reference to extreme solutions to projections of pessimistic views, such as antinatalism. Just a simple question really, do you think life for the average citizen in a country like the UK or USA has got better or worse or stayed much the same, in the last 2000 years?

    Btw, I have never liked this left-right way of categorising politics. The USA has a bill of rights and not a bill of lefts. We talk about human rights and not human lefts. There seems to be a bias towards the functions of the right hemisphere of the brain. Even 'left-handed' is traditionally considered more sinister than 'right-handed.' I think such issues which seem rather benign actually do colour some people's view that the 'left' of politics is more sinister than the 'right.'
  • D2OTSSUMMERBUG
    40

    do you think life for the average citizen in a country like the UK or USA has got better or worse or stayed much the same, in the last 2000 years?universeness
    I don't have a clear concept of how our physiological reward system works so I can't give an exact answer. What if people 2000 years ago experience the same level of satisfaction by having a full meal as what now only winning a hundred grands of lottery can stimulate? Empirically desire seems to be infinitive (which is why addiction can form) so I can't really tell if we on average feel better and "live better lives"(especially if the newer generation takes the advantage for granted).
    At the end of the day I can't speak for citizens in general. Reflective ones often rationalize and therefore devastate what could have been a pleasure to them.
  • Existential Hope
    789
    New goods could create new problems (although this doesn't change the fact that progress is possible, such as the eradication of diseases like smallpox and polio), but they also lead to new solutions. Pessimism matters, but so does optimism (at least for many). It certainly could be problematic to procreate in instances where the harm is likely to be too great, but I think it would be far more problematic to prevent all joy and lives that would be worth it. Still, it's obvious that not all times are appropriate for thoughtlessly creating new people, so caution should be exercised.
  • Existential Hope
    789
    That's indeed possible. And just as infinite desires could exist, infinite ways to attain fulfillment could also be present. Having the right perspective and problems that aren't as difficult to solve (such as the interminable large-scale wars and the lack of adequate healthcare that was prevalent in the past) could certainly help. I hope that we can work together towards progress for all!
  • god must be atheist
    5.1k
    A conclusion that makes sense is that it is better not to procreate more badness into the world then. A progress that devolves into pessimism, can take the form that life simply isn’t worth it, and ethically problematic to spread to another person.schopenhauer1

    Why would it be ethically problematic to spread it around, to other persons? Ethically it's a good thing to show that good things in history turn to bad. It is not a lie. Truth prevails. Is it a bad thing to spread truth?

    On the other hand, it does not exclude the possibility, and in deed, the verified practice, of coming up with good ideas. Yes, good ideas turn to be bad ideas, but for some time in history good ideas do not lose teir status as good ideas.
  • baker
    5.6k
    I understand that it is hard to embrace life without purpose and meaning. But whenever a meaning or purpose is created, dialectically there has to be some reasonable counteraction with the meaning and we fall into the endless cycle of creating and destroying meanings that don't even necessarily exist in the first place. Does that not lead to simply, pessimism?D2OTSSUMMERBUG

    Pessimism is a very broad term, hence it's useful to specify it further.

    An individualist pessimist will simply be written off as "depressed" by others; he sees his lack of hope as a failing on his part, and not something inherent to the "human condition".

    In contrast, a communal pessimist is not alone in his pessimism, he sees it as systemic and as inherent to the "human condition", with other people being "his fellow sufferers", "his fellow pessimists".
  • RolandTyme
    53
    Just a minor point - it's disputable whether China is a capitalist state.

    The argument is this. In a capitalist state, privately own capitalist firms calls the shots - certainly with regards the the economy at large, in general terms.

    China has extensive ownership of all the major firms, a police state which exerts control on them and civil society, and a central bureaucracy which is able to set the rough outlines for the direction of production. Not perfectly of course, but just imagine the Chinese equivalent of the UK chancellor Richi Sunak yesterday asking the business community to increase business investment (i.e. in R&D). Xi's economic minister wouldn't ask them - he'd tell them.

    Also, on pessimism - "Mankind Lives by Monstrous Deeds". I used to think just like you do. Schopenhauer was one of the first philosophers I read. Then I got over it, accepted we're kind of shit, and got on with my life. I hope you can as well. Just listen to the sentiment in "Tears of Rage" by The Band. Would you rather empathise, or do you think those people are silly? It's never too late.
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