Woah, a pro war puff piece in The Atlantic. What a surprise!

The same Atlantic whose Editor said, of the Iraq war...

Saddam Hussein is uniquely evil, the only ruler in power today—and the first one since Hitler—to commit chemical genocide. Is that enough of a reason to remove him from power? I would say yes, if 'never again' is in fact actually to mean 'never again.'"

Sound at all familiar? Christ! It's unbelievable that idiots just lap this stuff up when they've barely done more than just change the names.

Westerners can circulate literal war propaganda and then congratulate themselves on not being subject to propaganda.

Applebaum is an insane person who has been preaching for - in her words - "total war" with Russia for nearly 10 years. A neocon warmongerer only slightly less dangerous than Putin because she happens not to be a head of state. — Streetlight

What part of her argument do you disagree with?

I don't assess propaganda I put it in the bin where it belongs.

Lame.

No what's lame is cheerleading mass murder.

Super Mario keeps trying...

2 mins ago (17:53 GMT)

Italy aims to free grain exports blocked in Black Sea ports, Prime Minister Mario Draghi has told reporters following a phone call he held with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

“The first initiative one could begin to explore is to see whether a cooperation between Russia and Ukraine to unblock Black Sea ports could be built,” Draghi said.

Draghi said he would soon talk to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy on this issue.

"[Putin] also understands that if a democratic Ukraine is allowed to gain strength and prosper, it will likely inspire Russians to seek similar changes in their own country. In other words, he regards the existence of a free and democratic Ukraine as an existential threat to the future of his own autocratic regime."
https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2022/05/26/the_putin_puzzle_why_is_the_russian_dictator_so_obsessed_with_ukraine_834318.html

Aside from murdering Ukrainians, Russia is going to be responsible for the starvation of a whole lot of people.

Aside from murdering Ukrainians, Russia is going to be responsible for the starvation of a whole lot of people. — RogueAI

Or there's facts...

https://www.cgdev.org/cdi#/?adjusted=true

Commitment to development index. The United States is below Russia. But who cares about which country is actually responsible for mass starvation when you've got a warmongering narrative to feed.

"On 24 April the head of the world’s largest ship manager, René Kofod-Olsen, urged Nato to provide naval escorts for commercial vessels passing through the Black Sea: “We should demand that our seafaring and marine traffic is being protected in international waters. I’m sure Nato and others have a role to play in the protection of the commercial fleet.”"

This is a good article about where things stand in Ukraine militarily, and the growing pressure for some kind of action to protect commercial food shipping. You can view the whole thing in incognito mode.
https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/ukraine/2022/05/black-sea-blockade-crimea

I told you why I don't engage with you: you're dishonest.

There was another similar call to break the blockade and get the grain out, posted by recently. It made a good case for it.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/23/we-must-stop-letting-russia-define-the-terms-of-the-ukraine-crisis


This caught my attention:


US-supplied howitzers to Ukraine lack computers
(KYIV, Ukraine) — Dozens of artillery systems supplied by the United States to Ukraine were not fitted with advanced computer systems, which improve the efficiency and accuracy of the weapons, ABC News has learned.

The M777 155mm howitzers are now being used by the Ukrainian military in its war with Russia.

The Pentagon did not deny that the artillery pieces were supplied without the computers but said it had received “positive feedback” from the Ukrainians about the “precise and highly effective” weapons.

That positive sentiment was echoed by a Ukrainian politician, who spoke to ABC News on condition of anonymity. However, the politician also expressed frustration that the artillery pieces had not been the fitted with the digital computer systems. [...]

Howitzers without a computer system can still be fired accurately, using traditional methods to calculate the angle needed to hit a target. Modern computer systems, however, rule-out the possibility of human error.

Why the artillery pieces supplied to Ukraine did not have the digital targeting technology installed is unclear. The Pentagon said it would not discuss individual components “for operational security reasons.” [...]

A security expert, retired Colonel Steve Ganyard, said the United States had not sent the devices for fear that it might fall into the hands of the Russians. “In this case, they could not share the best of the United States,” he said.

told you why I don't engage with you: you're dishonest. — RogueAI

Not looking for engagement, just correcting your bullshit. The responsibility for the ensuing starvation is categorically the result of the underdevelopment-related vulnerability of these nations to fluctuations in imports for which Russia is far less responsible than America, or, even more so, Europe.

If they believed so, they wouldn't bomb civilians so much. — Olivier5

Depends. They could always say:

1. Civilians who have sided with NATO.

2. 150,000 got killed in America's jihad on Iraq. Russia hasn't killed anything in Ukraine that even remotely approaches that.

3. The Ukrainians are keeping their military casualties secret, but many more of their forces must have got killed than people believe. Of course, it serves NATO propaganda to make the world believe that Russians only kill civilians. But propaganda shouldn't be confused with facts.

4. Bombing civilians is considered acceptable in some parts of the world. Sometimes even in the West: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Germany, etc.

5. That's how Russia fights. And Ukraine and its Western paymasters knew it perfectly well from the start.

As I say, giving Russia Crimea and the ethnic-Russian areas of Donbas, and staying out of NATO, would have been a small price to pay for peace. This is why I believe that Zelensky is being pushed by America and Britain to carry on and escalate in order to (1) promote the interests of Western defense industries and (2) weaken or destroy Russia to facilitate its takeover by the West (which is what they already tried to do in the 90's).

They could say any number of lies.

2. 150,000 got killed in America's jihad on Iraq. Russia hasn't killed anything in Ukraine that even remotely approaches that. — Apollodorus

Not yet, at least.

But the numbers from Afghanistan, Syria and the two Chechen wars simply show that Russia doesn't care so much about civilian casualties. Actually the comparison between the casualty figures of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan and the US in Afghanistan tell something. Russia uses extensively firepower and the morale is low as it doesn't take care of it's troops, so it hasn't been so surprising that the pictures from Ukraine have a resemblance to the pictures we saw from Chechnya decades ago.

(then)


(now)

The responsibility for the ensuing starvation is categorically the result of the underdevelopment-related vulnerability of these nations to fluctuations in imports for which Russia is far less responsible than America, or, even more so, Europe. — Isaac

Starvation is, and has been, going on for decades. Millions died of starvation under British rule in India, Africa, Ireland ....

Timeline of major famines in India during British rule - Wikipedia

Great Famine (Ireland) - Wikipedia

The British era is significant because during this period a very large number of famines struck India. There is a vast literature on the famines in colonial British India. The mortality in these famines was excessively high and in some may have been increased by British policies. The mortality in the Great Bengal Famine of 1770 was between seven and 10 million; the Chalisa famine of 1783–1784, 11 million; Doji bara famine of 1791–1792, 11 million; and Agra famine of 1837–1838, 800,000. In the second half of the 19th-century large-scale excess mortality was caused by: Upper Doab famine of 1860–1861, 2 million; Great Famine of 1876–1878, 5.5 million; Indian famine of 1896–1897, 5 million; and Indian famine of 1899–1900, 1 million. The Bengal famine of 1943, which affected the Bengal region during wartime, was one of the major South Asian famines in which anywhere between 1.5 million and 3 million people died ...

They could say any number of lies. — Olivier5

Of course they could. And so could the West. As Churchill put it:

In time of war, when truth is so precious, it must be attended by a bodyguard of lies ...

So why would we be bothered with your long numbered lists of lies they could say?

Do you reckon it may be possible to break the blockade?

It isn't "a list of lies", but of things they could say in response to your claim.

Whether (a) they're actually saying that and (b) they're lies, remains to be seen.

Whether (a) they're actually saying that and (b) they're lies, remains to be seen. — Apollodorus

I confirm I couldn't care less, then.

I didn't think you'd care about the truth. But thanks for the confirmation.

The numbers from Afghanistan, Syria and the two Chechen wars simply show that Russia doesn't care so much about civilian casualties. — ssu

Really?! Well, it looks to me like NOBODY in those countries cares about civilian casualties. And neither does the West, otherwise it wouldn't have instigated civil wars there.

Plus, as you say, the Russians haven't killed 150,000 Ukrainians yet. Though, I'm sure Zelensky believes it's 60+ million .... :grin:

It's precisely because I care for the truth that I am not interested in your numbered propaganda items.

Woah, a pro war puff piece in The Atlantic. What a surprise! — Isaac

It’s a pity— I’ve been impressed with the Atlantic in recent years.

This war seems to be dying down a bit. I’m hopeful for a ceasefire within a few months.

The consequences of this war will be felt for years to come. That’s the only certainty I can see.

In the end, one has to be dumbfounded by the stupid, stupid move on Putin’s part. To say nothing about the immorality.

Also great to see bipartisan support for the US government actively contributing to, and benefiting from, this atrocity. Comforting to know some things never change.

In unrelated news: Lockheed stock has surged nearly 13% since mid February. Chevron about 30%. Thankfully neither industry has much pull in Washington.

https://warontherocks.com/2022/05/the-battlefields-of-the-donbass-and-beyond/

It's precisely because I care for the truth that I am not interested in your numbered propaganda items. — Olivier5

Numbered propaganda items?! :rofl:

I think you’re in denial. Some estimates attribute 186,318 Iraqi deaths to the US-led Coalition.

Lancet surveys of Iraq War casualties – Wikipedia

Is your counting dead Ukrainian civilians any better???

Besides, this isn’t about counting civilian casualties, it’s about the enormous worldwide ramifications of this war that was started by Russia but instigated by America and its European client-states.

Lockheed Martin, one of the largest US defense contractors, donated $256,500 to the campaigns of members of Congress, a gubernatorial campaign, and Republican and Democratic political action committees. In total about 150 lawmakers. This is how it gets decided how much America invests in the war, which defense companies are awarded contracts, etc., etc.

Lockheed Martin's PAC also donated to the campaigns of 27 members of the House Armed Services Committee, including Democratic member and chairman Rep. Adam Smith of Washington.
Lockheed Martin co-produces Javelin anti-tank missile systems, which Ukrainian defenses have used against Russian forces — the US has sent Ukraine at least 5,500 Javelin systems since Biden took office, with the majority coming after Russia's invasion, according to Breaking Defense. The company also produces fighter jets and a wide variety of other military and defense systems.
Lockheed Martin and Raytheon Technologies announced in mid-May that the two companies' joint Javelin venture was awarded two contracts worth $309 million by the US Army to produce more missiles.
In addition to contributions from its PAC, Lockheed Martin also spends millions each year directly lobbying the federal government, including Congress.
During the first quarter of 2022 alone, Lockheed Martin spent $3.3 million on federal-level lobbying efforts, according to data compiled by nonpartisan research organization OpenSecrets.

One of the largest defense contractors in the nation donated to nearly 150 members of Congress as they debated Ukraine military aid – Business Insider

THAT is what drives America’s war effort in Ukraine. Of course, to those who are in denial this is not truth but “propaganda” and “conspiracy theory” …. :grin:

What incredible level of comfort and entitlement it must take for people like Olivier and Rogue to sit behind their teak desks and demand that people fighting on one potato a day play out their power fantasies of "getting revenge on Putin" and "punishing Russia":

DRUZHKIVKA, Ukraine — Stuck in their trenches, the Ukrainian volunteers lived off a potato per day as Russian forces pounded them with artillery and Grad rockets on a key eastern front line. Outnumbered, untrained and clutching only light weapons, the men prayed for the barrage to end — and for their own tanks to stop targeting the Russians.

“War breaks people down,” said Serhiy Haidai, head of the regional war administration in Luhansk province, acknowledging many volunteers were not properly trained because Ukrainian authorities did not expect Russia to invade. But he maintained that all soldiers are taken care of: “They have enough medical supplies and food. The only thing is there are people that aren’t ready to fight.”

But Lapko and Khrus’s concerns were echoed recently by a platoon of the 115th Brigade 3rd Battalion, based nearby in the besieged city of Severodonetsk. In a video uploaded to Telegram on May 24, and confirmed as authentic by an aide to Haidai, volunteers said they will no longer fight because they lacked proper weapons, rear support and military leadership.

“We are being sent to certain death,” said a volunteer, reading from a prepared script, adding that a similar video was filmed by members of the 115th Brigade 1st Battalion. “We are not alone like this, we are many.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/05/26/ukraine-frontline-russia-military-severodonetsk/

It must be so nice to expect other people to bear the misery of war for Western revanchism. On to Moscow they can go!