• Agent Smith
    I don't need absolute perfection for life to be worthwhile,DA671

    A child dying of starvation, an infant succumbing to a painful infection, a person being (slowly) tortured to death, a person who's unemployed and homeless because he didn't have it in him to make the cut, basically people enduring the most horrrific of circumstances aren't looking for perfection! They're simply asking/begging for the bare necessities that make life enjoyable tolerable!

    Your distorted view of reality is showing with every word that you write. I don't blame you though. Our opinions are shaped by our circumstances. You'll come around in time; it isn't a question of if, only when!


    Realistic is the apt word/concept here!

    As I said, let your children and children's children be the judge. We probably won't live long enough to see our descendants suffer in the most horrible of ways, but mark my words, this will come to pass.
  • DA671
    A child lovingly hugging his mother in an attempt to express the indescribable beauty of love is not tolerance. A soldier feeling immense pride and honour despite of facing pain is transcending mere "tolerance". Innumerable people helping others and finding genuine happiness in it is more significant than one might think. I am not denying that the harms aren't extremely problematic, however. Part of the problem is that most people these days wish to chase superficial pleasures instead of finding deeper contentment, which is easier to find if everybody benefits, not just a few. If the world had more empathetic people like you, we could have resolved our problems sooner. Still, hope remains.

    We all are distorted to various degrees, my friend. Some mitigate that, others exacerbate it. Even though you have engaged with one side of reality quite well, you have grossly neglected the other. That ignorance continues to shape and reflect your words. Some people live their entire lives living a lie, but I hope your destiny is different.

    Pseudo-realism ;)

    "We" is a broad term :p We shall certainly see. I have marked your words, but I think that the only use they would have (ultimately, not immediately) would be as an example of how wrong some worldviews and predictions can get. Until then, please have a good life ahead!
  • Agent Smith
    Let our children and children's children be the judge. I secretly wish I'm wrong, but the givens are such that any such optimism is ridiculous!

    By the way, no instance of happiness you give can make the case for you for the simple reason that happiness is dukkha too.
  • DA671
    It always has been. After all, the achievement of the "ridiculous" is an excellent way to reach the realm of ecstasy. :)
    We will, mate. I am not an oracle, but I would be far more worried if there weren't people like you who cared. That's why I said before, thanks for "everything".
  • Agent Smith
    We will, mateDA671

    :ok: Good luck!
  • DA671
    Same to you! :D
  • universeness

    "A child dying of starvation"
    If you were there perhaps you could have fed the child. I take that you do a lot of charity work and contribute to food banks and such, regularly.

    "an infant succumbing to a painful infection"
    Perhaps you could have provided the medication to save this infant or you could have phoned a medical professional or held them and whispered beautiful words into their ear or sang them a beautiful, peaceful song as they died. Had you been able to, would you have done so?

    "A person being (slowly) tortured to death."
    Maybe you could have killed the torturer or maybe the victim had slaughtered the person's family earlier and this was an act of vengeance. waddyafink?

    "A person who's unemployed and homeless because he didn't have it in him to make the cut"
    Maybe you could give this person a job or help him find one.
    Maybe this person was a fraudster, caught, jailed, released, now rejected by friends, family, now on the street homeless, Do you feel still feel empathy or pity for this fraudster or would you 'offer another chance?'

    "Basically people enduring the most horrrific of circumstances aren't looking for perfection! They're simply asking/begging for the bare necessities that make life enjoyable tolerable!"
    Then why don't you do what you can to help them?
    Instead, you sit inside your misanthropic bubble wearing your badge with 'I also suffer, boo hoo for me' on the label. But you wear it with pride. You like your christ crucified stance.
    Your internal watcher is trying to tell you, you are too obsessed with the concept of suffering.
    DA671 has gone to great lengths to do the same.
    If you won't listen and learn then let us optimists get on with trying to 'intervene' on the behalf of the sufferers while you continue to bleat about suffering whilst doing nothing to help.
    Why don't you think about becoming part of the solution instead of remaining part of the problem?

    "Your distorted view of reality is showing with every word that you write. I don't blame you though. Our opinions are shaped by our circumstances. You'll come around in time; it isn't a question of if, only when!

    I find predictors of doom boring and somewhat amusing.
    A sandwich board with 'The end is nigh' on it is their usual fate or they join something like the 'rapture' crowd.
  • Agent Smith
    My replies to DA671 apply to you. There's no point in repeating myself.

    Happiness is either an illusion or, no matter what, is still dukkha (unsatisfactory). With that all arguments that depend on happiness as also a part of life (natalism one of 'em) go out the window.

    Just to inject something new to my thesis: the overall trend in science (biology/medicine) hasn't been to increase pleasure, but to reduce pain. To drive home the point, have you checked the sales figures for painkillers? I'm certain the relevant statistics aren't going to help natalists make their case.

    Just from some data available online:


    Pleasure (not exactly, but let's give natalists something to work on)
    Iillicit drugs: $32 billion

    Fun fact: Morphine (highly addictive) is an analgesic.

    Antidepressants: $20 billion
    Analgesics: $25 billion
  • DA671
    In here for the daily reminder that the reality of A does not automatically make B unreal. Dissatisfaction is, by definition, not true satisfaction. However, profound happiness does exist, and one can cherish it in multiple ways, from simple pleasures such as consumption to more complex ones such as love and achievement of knowledge. I would not be making the claim that the reality of happiness makes suffering unreal, however, since I do think that a comprehensive approach is preferable.

    Some people do take substances that make them happier, though it might not be good to use those things which lead to a loss of happiness in the long run. However, removing pain does not mean that one does not experience happiness. Part of the reason why one seeks to avoid pain is that they wish to return to the state that is permeated with more fulfillment. The sales do show that there is an increase in our need to be happy than there was before ;)

    Edit: Although I do not consider the usage of drugs to be the pinnacle of happiness (which is real), here are a few interesting statistics:

    "In 2007 and 2008, cocaine was used by some 16 to 17 million people worldwide, similar to the number of global opiate users. North America accounted for more than 40 per cent of global cocaine consumption (the total was estimated at around 470 tons), while the 27 European Union and four European Free Trade Association countries accounted for more than a quarter of total consumption. These two regions account for more than 80 per cent of the total value of the global cocaine market, which was estimated at $88 billion in 2008."

    Source: https://www.unodc.org/unodc/drug-trafficking/index.html

    "According to the report published by Allied Market Research,the antidepressant drugs market accounted for $13.75 billion in 2016, and is estimated to reach $15.98 billion by 2023, registering a CAGR of 2.1% from 2017 to 2023."

    Source: https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2020/08/06/2074356/0/en/Antidepressant-Drugs-Market-to-Grow-Valuation-of-15-98-Billion-by-2023.html

    "The global analgesics market reached a value of US$ 48.2 Billion in 2020."

    Source: https://www.imarcgroup.com/analgesics-market#:~:text=Market%20Overview%3A,moderate%20growth%20during%202021%2D2026.

    Therefore, the value of the "pleasure" (using just a single substance) appears to be greater. However, I do not think that one requires drugs in order to appreciate a valuable relationship or enjoy the beauty of art. I think it would be extremely difficult to put a monetary value on the effulgent smile a child has on his face when his mother after a long time. It would also be pertinent to mention that it could be possible that one is throwing away the opportunity to recognise happiness either by dismissing it as an "illusion" or by creating a self-fulfilling prophecy that sucks all joy from one's life, which will lead one to an inexorable descent into an irrational position. One does do many things in order to prevent/reduce harm and regain contentment.

    The upshot of all this is that universal antinatalism remains indefensible. I have already expressed my other views, so I shall refrain from repeating them here. Hope everybody here has an amazing day!
  • universeness

    I will look out for your sandwich board....
  • universeness

    I support your general views on this issue.
    I leave Agent Smith to fight his own internal battle between antinatalism and masochism instead of his attempt to subject his own internal psychology to the scrutiny of others here.
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