• Athena
    1.8k
    I am very curious about what T Clark has to say about women blaming men and not taking their share of responsibility. I know back in the early days of women's liberation, I read New Women magazines and they made it clear women had to become responsible in a different way and that prospect was frightening to me. I have really mixed feelings about the social changes we have experienced. I think we are moving into a totally new consciousness and that if we continue in this direction, future generations will not be able to relate to the past. Our relatively recent past, and present, could look barbaric to future generations. So this is what T Clark said......

    This is something I feel strongly about. Women who say they want to be respected but then blame the problems of our society on men rather than taking their share of the responsibility are hard to take seriously. — T Clark
  • Miller
    92
    Entitled Victim Mentality. Imagine I steal someone's money and then tell the police they stole my money. So now the police take even more money from him and give it to me!

    If I walk into a store with no shirt and no shoes and I get no service should I play the victim and blame the store? Do I have zero ability to see myself. Maybe someone should hold a mirror in front of me.

    It is the same with some people. They blame the opposite sex for the reason they can't get what they want from them. Like young guys blaming women for why they can't get sex, or older women blaming men for why they can't get married.

    In order to get something from a store I have to figure out what the store wants from me in order to give me what i want. Fair trade requires communication and education between both parties. What do I have to do for you in order for you to do what I want. And what are your good qualities and bad qualities. What do you have to offer and what do I have to watch out for and avoid. To get the pleasure and avoid the pain. Now I'm learning. So I am getting closer to achieving my goal. Or I can sit around and sulk. Or I can use entitled victim mentality to trick everyone into giving me what I want for free.
  • john27
    89
    Sorry, I'm not sure I understand the initial question. Are you asking whether our social responsibility is changing for the better or worse?
  • T Clark
    7.2k
    I am very curious about what T Clark has to say about women blaming men and not taking their share of responsibility.Athena

    I am reluctant to get involved in this discussion. I think my sincerely held (and I think fair and humane) opinions will be taken as disrespectful. It's also a huge subject. Feminist philosophy doesn't get much play here on the forum, and I am reluctant to put myself in opposition. Ok, now that I've gotten all my excuses out of the way, I'll at least expand on my comment.

    The essence of adulthood is that you don't blame other people for your misfortune. You take responsibility for your own life. People who hold other people to blame are asking to be treated like children. In our society there is a case to be made that certain classes of people are dealt a raw deal in life. As far as I can see, that usually breaks down by race and class, not by sex. Working class people get the shaft. Middle and upper class people have the road paved for them. I include myself and my family in that group.

    That's what it comes down to for me. If you want to blame others for difficulties in your life, you are asking to be treated like a child.
  • 180 Proof
    6.5k
    If you want to blame others for difficulties in your life, you are asking to be treated like a child.T Clark
    Blame the victim (of abuse, deprivation, violence) for crying out for help and shame the survivor (of class exploitation or race/gender/sex discrimination or both) for fighting back ... because "tough titties, dude, that's just the way it is, the world isn't fair and doesn't owe you anything". "Treat us like children" and we'll "treat" you like jailed child molesters. :shade:
  • T Clark
    7.2k
    Blame the victim (of abuse, deprivation, violence) for crying out for help and shame the survivor (of class exploitation or race/gender/sex discrimination or both) for fighting back ... because "tough titties, dude, that's just the way it is, the world isn't fair and doesn't owe you anything". "Treat us like children" and we'll "treat" you like jailed child molesters.180 Proof

    This is true only if women, as a class, are victims. Is that what you think? I don't.
  • 180 Proof
    6.5k
    Ask most women. Some are victims (silenced), some are survivors (vocal). :roll:

    Protected classes (re: sex & gender discrinination)
  • TheMadFool
    13.7k
    How is/should we measure gender equality/inequality?
  • T Clark
    7.2k
    Ask most women. Some are victims (silenced), some are survivors (vocal).180 Proof

    I wonder if that's true. I'm guessing it's not. I know a lot of women, none of whom would characterize themselves as victims or survivors. At least two of them really are victims of childhood abuse that has affected their adult lives in very significant ways. Both of them take responsibility for their own lives. Neither blames the people who abused them, although they do hold them responsible.

    Protected classes (re: sex & gender discrinination)180 Proof

    That includes religion too. Do you consider Christians victims? Muslims?
  • 180 Proof
    6.5k
    Taking responsibility for your life is to survive by fighting back against those who have victimized you and others. And yes, (if you check the link and read the wiki) religion is also a protected class.
  • Hermeticus
    135
    victim - a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action

    I'd like to suggest that there's two layers to being a victim. There is a societal aspect and a personal aspect.

    1. The societal aspect of being a victim
    This is where morale and law applies. One of the goals of a functioning society is to allow a peaceful and save environment for every member of society. Hence, any harmful behaviour that "creates" a victim is to be prevented. Further, there is the law that offers consequences for those that do violate this rule and cause harm upon others. Effectively, the societal aspect operates in regard to the perpetrator, preventig the perpetrator from causing harm and punishing him if he does.

    2. The personal aspect of being a victim
    This is about resilience, fortitude, our personal world view and how we deal with crisis. Society may dictate what happens to the perpetrator but as the victim, the damage is still done. The question then is, how do we deal with this? Ultimately we're along with our thoughts and emotions and we'll have to find a way to cope with our trauma. The personal aspect operates in regard to the victim, it is about overcoming trauma and continuing to live.

    I think this is what T Clark means with
    The essence of adulthood is that you don't blame other people for your misfortune. You take responsibility for your own life.T Clark

    Society offers prevention, punsihment and support - but ultimately, every individual is responsibly for their own happiness. It sounds crude but in the end there's only two options: 1. Suffer from what happened for the rest of your life. 2. Get over it

    We find these ideas in Buddhism and Stoicism.
    We can hardly control our circumstances. Life contains suffering.
    What we can control is our mental states. Do I focus on the bad and spiral into negativity, or do I focus on the good and appreciate all that life has to offer?
  • James Riley
    2.7k
    Speaking generally (allow me to repeat that word for those who might have missed it) speaking generally, women are capable of great humility. Unfortunately, the humble are also subject to humiliation. Humility is a sign of strength. Those who humiliate might mistake the humble for the humbled. The former can withstand humiliation, but they should not be called upon to do so. It is incumbent upon good men to prevent bad men from humiliating women.

    But note: As women begin to flex (in the U.S., if not in Afghanistan), they should keep in mind that there is likewise a pecking order among men. There are a few moderating factors: civics, the gun, and money. But absent these, a big man, in his prime can treat other men the way some women feel men treat them. So it's not always a viable argument for a women to say to a man "You don't know what it's like!" He might know very well what it is like.

    To avoid the gun and money (while not abandoning them), we need to focus on civics. We should honor humility and defend the humble. To the extent we honor the proud and refrain from shooting them, we should exalt those who protect the humble from bullies. Let the proud tease and rough-house with each other; and in the process teach each other civics.

    This applies to women and men.

    P.S. This is not New Consciousness & Changing Responsibility. This is old.
  • T Clark
    7.2k
    Taking responsibility for your life is to survive by fighting back against those who have victimized you and others. And yes, (if you check the link and read the wiki) religion is also a protected class.180 Proof

    I was reluctant to get involved in this discussion. I only did because @Athena started it in response to a comment of mine. She seems to have bailed on the discussion, so I will too.
  • T Clark
    7.2k


    I agree with some of what you've written. As I noted in my response to 180 Proof, I'm getting out of this discussion.
  • baker
    3.3k
    People who hold other people to blame are asking to be treated like children.T Clark

    Interesting. On the contrary, I find that usually, when people blame others, they do so in an effort to get the upper hand in the situation, to obtain the position of power.
  • baker
    3.3k
    I'm getting out of this discussion.T Clark

    *sigh*
    Hey, I don't even have the time to turn on the computer every day!
  • Athena
    1.8k
    The essence of adulthood is that you don't blame other people for your misfortune. You take responsibility for your own life. People who hold other people to blame are asking to be treated like children. In our society there is a case to be made that certain classes of people are dealt a raw deal in life. As far as I can see, that usually breaks down by race and class, not by sex. Working class people get the shaft. Middle and upper class people have the road paved for them. I include myself and my family in that group.

    That's what it comes down to for me. If you want to blame others for difficulties in your life, you are asking to be treated like a child.
    T Clark

    :lol: I see why you were concerned about expressing your opinion. You did an excellent job of laying the groundwork for discussing touchy subjects. If you had not done that, it would be more difficult for me to be rational. As it is, I realize my intense anger is from the past and it would be irrational for me to unload it here and now but I need to skillfully defend my species. :wink: Times have changed a lot and that really complicates things.

    When you speak of blame I wonder does that include a notion of cause and effect?

    Some years ago I belonged to a male conservative group that ventured into allowing women to join. At first, there was just me and two other women and everything was cool. Then the men included their wives and OMG could I understand why, in the past, people believed women were incapable of being rational and most assuredly incapable of leading or having much responsibility. I mean not even the responsibility of managing money and paying the bills. These women were probably in their 70's and they had the mentality of children! Do you want to guess at why they were as little girls? Why were their wives different from the next generation of women?
  • T Clark
    7.2k
    I need to skillfully defend my species.Athena

    I think this says everything about why I don't want to go any further in this discussion. If you are not a member of my species, we have nothing to say to each other.
  • Athena
    1.8k
    I was reluctant to get involved in this discussion. I only did because Athena started it in response to a comment of mine. She seems to have bailed on the discussion, so I will too.T Clark

    No, I did not bail. I was busy, and boy, am I sorry I did not stay on top of the thread! It took a direction that kind of ruins the concept of our changed reality/ consciousness, that I wanted to explore with everyone. And @ john27 expresses wisdom in asking.

    Sorry, I'm not sure I understand the initial question. Are you asking whether our social responsibility is changing for the better or worse?john27

    Yes, I am asking if the change in a woman's social responsibility is for the better or worse. Now like T Clark, I have my concerns about saying what is on my mind but if I don't, this thread is pointless.

    I think the traditional, full-time homemaker is a very important social position and we have destroyed it. I am not sure this is good for society. On the other hand, I think women in the seats of power have done much good. An extremely important factor that complicates the possible arguments is the possibility of women putting family first and when the children are old enough, switching to something outside of the home to fully actualize themselves through a career.
  • Valentinus
    1.6k

    From my experience of being a male primary caretaker in the context of certainly being employable to do something else, it struck me how the kid (in review) had absolutely no preconceptions about what should happen. My efforts were not maternal but it was made clear to me they were welcomed as care.

    Children seem designed to make the failings of their parents to come sharply into view.
  • Athena
    1.8k
    I think this says everything about why I don't want to go any further in this discussion. If you are not a member of my species, we have nothing to say to each other.T Clark

    Wait a minute I was attempting to introduce some humor to reduce tensions. A whole different subject could be why does talking about the relationships of men and women cause us to go crazy? We need to reach out to each other and if possible dispel the animosity that is a big part of what is going so wrong right now. I find your sensitivity valuable in making me think carefully about how I word myself so it is on topic and not an emotional rant.

    Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus: A Practical Guide for Improving Communication and Getting What You Want in Your Relationships – April 23, 1993
    by John Gray, was a helpful book and maybe it could still be helpful. There has been such dramatic social and economic changes and everything is spinning out of control because the change is happening without discussion and coming to a consensus. Do we want to institutionalize our children in government-run institutions so all mothers can work outside of the home? How might this affect our experience of being human? How might it be changing society?
  • Philosophim
    777
    This is something I feel strongly about. Women who say they want to be respected but then blame the problems of our society on men rather than taking their share of the responsibility are hard to take seriously. — T Clark

    Whenever I see a broad sentence that signifies a specific group, I get rid of the specific group.

    "This is something I feel strongly about. People who say they want to be respected but then blame the problems of our society on other people, rather than taking their share of the responsibility are hard to take seriously.

    Removing the specific allows us to also remove bias. Removing bias is key to thinking more rationally about something.

    First, its still a broad sentence that can be taken different ways depending on how you read it. If I read it as:

    People who are an equal part of society, and say they want to be respected but then blame the problems of our society on other people, rather than taking their share of the responsibility are hard to take seriously.

    I can agree here. If you are a wealthy land owner who has the power to not do something wrong, but you do something wrong and blame it on society, its hard to respect that person.

    But lets change it up.

    People who are oppressed, threatened, and marginalized by society, and say they want to be respected but then blame the problems of our society on other people, rather than taking their share of the responsibility are hard to take seriously.

    Now I would agree with this sentence too. If society will not respect you, threatens you, and basically ostracizes you from society, I think the blame lays with those who have power in society, not yourself.

    Divisive sentences like T-Clark's are divisive because they let you two diametrically opposed contexts into it. One person could be angry at T-Clark, while a defender of T-Clark would roll their eyes at the person in anger. Both have merit in their context of the sentence, but are actually concluding entirely different meanings from that sentence.

    True woman's liberation is about equality of opportunity, and respect in the law. We can eliminate the word woman as well, and realize that true liberation in society is about equality of opportunity, and respect in the law. Beware those who would taint liberation with bias, for their intent is often not about liberation, but an agenda.
  • Athena
    1.8k
    From my experience of being a male primary caretaker in the context of certainly being employable to do something else, it struck me how the kid (in review) had absolutely no preconceptions about what should happen. My efforts were not maternal but it was made clear to me they were welcomed as care.

    Children seem designed to make the failings of their parents to come sharply into view.
    Valentinus

    Perfect! Now that is down the line of what I want to discuss! You do not need to answer this personal question, but why did you feel a need to clarify you are qualified to do something besides care for a child? If raising children is one of the most important things a human being can do, why would it be necessary to clarify you are capable of other things? Does someone want to argue caring for children is not important? Really, are we at peace with the state of fear and anger we are living in now?

    How old was the child? I ask because I firmly believe around age 6 the care of a child needs to shift from a female care provider to a male care provider.

    This question is very important... Did you and the child bond? If the two you bonded, is the relationship continuing until death do you part? What might happen to the child if all relationships are only temporary? If as soon as a child feels love and security, there is loss and insecurity? Might that be harmful to the child?

    I suspect the most terrible thing we have done, next to war and slavery is dismiss how a child feelings by saying "children adjust". Mom and Dad and all substitutions for Mom and Dad can do whatever makes them happy and no one needs to think of the child because the child "will adjust'. The child has "no preconceptions about what should happen". That is probably true because we are not born with preconceptions, I will argue that is what is wrong with a child going through life with temporary relationships. The child is learning who s/he is and what life is about, and if people learn each one of us is out for ourselves with no commitments or obligations to others, what might kind of society will we have?
  • NOS4A2
    5.2k


    We should always remember: though a woman is more free to abandon her traditional role and seek protections from the state over other human relations, she has the corresponding and growing freedom to do the opposite. The point of it is that the realm of conduct is expanded. It’s better this way because only by free choice can a woman—or anyone—educate herself to this or that desirable end with dignity, by force of her own reason and conscience.

    None of this is to say that women should or should not abandon “social responsibility”. I just wouldn’t say a fear of the conditions are really warranted.
  • Valentinus
    1.6k

    You touched upon a lot of issues I cannot answer for. I am not happy with that response but I figure this sort of thing requires being very honest about limitations.

    My child has a pretty good understanding of my limitations.He is glad that I helped him understand how that works. A parent cannot ask for much more than that.
  • Athena
    1.8k
    Now I would agree with this sentence too. If society will not respect you, threatens you, and basically ostracizes you from society, I think the blame lays with those who have power in society, not yourself....

    True woman's liberation is about equality of opportunity, and respect in the law. We can eliminate the word woman as well, and realize that true liberation in society is about equality of opportunity, and respect in the law. Beware those who would taint liberation with bias, for their intent is often not about liberation, but an agenda.
    Philosophim

    I love your arguments and you have made it very clear why education in how to think is very important. I believe throughout the whole of society we have a much better society if from the day a child entered school, education was learning how to think. You have demonstrated that how we think can make the difference between being a rational person, or an emotional mess.

    I object to your definition of woman's liberation meaning equality of opportunity and respect in the law.
    Please refer to my reply to
    ValentinusAthena
    Why do you think he needed to clarify he is capable of doing something besides childcare? I could be wrong, but I think he felt a need to do that because we do not value full-time homemakers who enable the husband and children to be all they can be, as though no capable person would settle for that. Really? I think our equality needs to include the value of caring for our families. Inequity as I see it is claiming "what I am doing is important and what you are doing is not".

    If you look at India and other Asian countries and the veneration of spiritual leaders and elders, we might have a different understanding of being humans. What do I have to achieve to be valued?
  • Athena
    1.8k
    You touched upon a lot of issues I cannot answer for. I am not happy with that response but I figure this sort of thing requires being very honest about limitations.

    My child has a pretty good understanding of my limitations.He is glad that I helped him understand how that works. A parent cannot ask for much more than that.
    Valentinus

    Huh? you can't ask for more than your child understanding you? You do not want to know what is going through my head. You appear to be thinking about yourself rather than the child. I really hope I am wrong, but I think this is where there is a male/female difference and where is a problem with valuing the person who cares for the child.

    Refering to my reply to
    PhilosophimPhilosophim
    caring for a child is not an opportunity we take for our own gain.
  • Valentinus
    1.6k
    You do not want to know what is going through my headAthena

    I am curious about is going through your head.
    I ask for a lot of things that don't interest my child. He is used to that. How to put it, we understand each other.
  • Athena
    1.8k
    We should always remember: though a woman is more free to abandon her traditional role and seek protections from the state over other human relations, she has the corresponding and growing freedom to do the opposite. The point of it is that the realm of conduct is expanded. It’s better this way because only by free choice can a woman—or anyone—educate herself to this or that desirable end with dignity, by force of her own reason and conscience.

    None of this is to say that women should or should not abandon “social responsibility”. I just wouldn’t say a fear of the conditions are really warranted.
    NOS4A2

    I don't think I could be working any harder to understand what people are saying and make rational replies than if you all were writing in Greek. Once a child is born, a woman is free to do what?

    What was a woman's social responsibility? What is a woman's social responsibility today? What is a man's social responsibility? Is there a difference between the man's and the woman's social responsibilities?
  • Athena
    1.8k
    We can hardly control our circumstances. Life contains suffering.
    What we can control is our mental states. Do I focus on the bad and spiral into negativity, or do I focus on the good and appreciate all that life has to offer?
    Hermeticus

    What does life have to offer? Can you think of any conditions that leave a person feeling powerless to achieve happiness?
  • Athena
    1.8k
    I am curious about is going through your head.
    I ask for a lot of things that don't interest my child. He is used to that. How to put it, we understand each other.
    Valentinus

    Speaking of child care is the foundation of why I brought up the subject of changing consciousness. Our civilizations have been patriarchal. The Cherokee are matriarchal and there are other matriarchal societies around the world but these are not dominating powers as patriarchies are. In our patriarchy women have agreed to be like men and leave childcare up to someone else. I question if that is a good idea.

    I do not think in any matriarchy or patriarchy do men desire to be as women, unless they are homosexual and even then I doubt this is strongly connected with wanting to be a mother. Drag Queens are not displaying a desire to be mothers. There are some nurturing men who enjoy being with children and this may or may not reflect their sexual orientation. :joke: This is crazy-making because there are so many possible combinations, but I think I can safely say, in our society, we do not have nearly enough nurturing men willing to devote themselves to children.

    Why don't many women what to be nurturing and financially dependent on someone else? On a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the best, How do we rate women who are financially dependent so they can stay home and care for their children? How on the scale where do we put men who are financially dependent and stay home to care for the children?
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