• Xanatos
    98
    Libertarian law professor Ilya Somin previously wrote a book titled Free to Move, which advocates in favor of considerably more open borders than we currently have. (A "presumption in favor of open borders", in Ilya Somin's words--albeit not a completely irrebuttable one.) Somin has also compared immigration restrictions to racial discrimination--for instance, over here:

    https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/politics/527392-immigration-restrictions-and-racial-discrimination-share-similar

    Honestly, I was impressed by some of Somin's arguments--even though they did not take me quite as far as he would have probably wanted me to. Let's focus on my birth country of Israel, for instance--in part because I have a personal interest there and in part because the alt-right loves to use it as a talking point and to view it as an inspiration. OK, here goes:

    Israeli Jews presumably argue that their country should have a categorical (or near-categorical) exclusion on gentile immigrants who don't have any close Jewish relatives or family members because otherwise the changes that will occur to Israel's demographic character could result in Israeli Jews becoming more vulnerable to pogroms, hate crimes, inter-religious violence, and the sort. However, as Ilya Somin points out, many of the arguments that are used to justify immigration restrictions can also be used to justify restrictions on internal migration. For instance, by that same logic, what exactly is to prevent a group of Israeli Jews from creating Jewish-only communities, whether through restrictive covenants or through some other means, in order to protect themselves from any potential pogroms, hate crimes, and inter-religious violence that could occur if non-Jews (aka gentiles) were to settle in these communities? Yet if one is going to argue that a categorical prohibition on gentiles living in Jewish cities/town/communities/neighborhoods would be too broad, one could legitimately ask whether a categorical (or near-categorical) prohibition on gentiles without any close Jewish relatives or family members moving to Israel would likewise be too broad. After all, Ilya Somin points out how, in the domestic context, differential treatment of citizens based on their race, ethnicity, or religion would be subject to strict scrutiny and would thus have to be narrowly tailored to serve a compelling state interest:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/10/us-immigration-laws-unconstitutional-double-standards/599140/

    Granted, Israel isn't the US, but I suspect that Israeli Jews, at least of the more liberal variety, would agree with Somin's logic in the domestic context here. If so, then one could legitimately wonder why exactly discrimination in immigration policy should not likewise be narrowly tailored as much as possible in order to serve a compelling state interest. Indeed, why the double-standard here?

    Also, in regards to demographic change, even without any immigration, there would still *theoretically* be ways for Israel to lose its Jewish character. For instance, non-Jews could out-reproduce Jews in Israel over a sufficiently long time period. If, purely hypothetically, the only way to preserve Israel's Jewish character would have been through a discriminatory fertility policy where non-Jews would have been strongly encouraged (with financial incentives) to have small families whereas Jews would have been strongly encouraged (with financial incentives) to have larger families, would that have been perfectly acceptable? If having Jews become a minority in Israel is so horrible (even if Israeli Jews aren't "replaced" by Arabs or Muslims but are instead replaced with, say, Russians or Belarusians or Chinese or Vietnamese or Thai people or Filipinos or Hindus or Latin Americans), then why exactly would the Israeli state interest in regards to this not be sufficiently compelling to justify a discriminatory fertility policy if, purely hypothetically, such a policy would have literally been the only way to maintain Israel's Jewish character?

    And for that matter, why stop there? If having Jews become a minority in Israel is so horrible, why not have Israel impose a tax on apostasy and/or on any speech that encourages apostasy in a hypothetical scenario where large numbers of Israeli Jews would have already left Judaism and joined other religions and where there is a very serious fear that many more Israeli Jews will eventually follow in their footsteps if nothing is done to stop this trend? Sure, an apostasy tax--as well as a tax on speech that encourages apostasy--would certainly be illiberal, but at the same time, if there is a scenario where imposing such taxes would literally be the only way for Israel to maintain its Jewish character, then what exactly would be so unacceptable about this? (This is, of course, based on the premise that Jews who leave Judaism and join another religion would no longer be considered Jews, a position that Israel does, in fact, appear to hold: https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/swedish-daughter-of-holocaust-survivor-faces-deportation-from-israel-514734 ) After all, imposing such taxes would literally be the only way to prevent an alleged great evil in such a scenario--assuming that having Jews become a minority in Israel would genuinely be as awful as some Israeli Jews actually suggest, of course.

    Anyway, what are your thoughts about all of this?
  • Xanatos
    98
    And for what it's worth, I'm not specifically targeting Israel here. I also support generous immigration policies for other countries--for instance, for other Western countries, Turkey, the Gulf states, East Asia, et cetera. But I certainly don't support open borders or anything close to it. I can elaborate if necessary, but basically, I don't believe that the social safety net would actually be sustainable with an open borders regime. And I'm also strongly worried about cultural compatibility in certain cases, such as with immigrants who are likely to commit massacres along the lines of the Charlie Hebdo massacre several years ago. (But I also oppose, say, a categorical ban on all Muslim immigrants, which is why I view Israel's opposition to gentile immigration, even of the non-Muslim kind, as being excessive.)
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    My own American view is that America should have a long time ago - and maybe even now if possible - approached the other western hemisphere states with both velvet glove and iron fist, carrot and stick, telling them, not asking, to get their houses in order so that one of their main exports is not desperate people. That is, dictator X makes life difficult for his people. They flee and make life difficult for us. We, in turn, will make life extremely difficult for you, unless you mend your dictator's ways. If only.

    But I have spoken to more than a few citizens of those countries, and a theme of their remarks is that even when America has tried to help, it usually gets f***ed up, ranging from plain waste to wholesale corruption.

    That is, the refuge/immigrant is a problem, but not the problem. And will remain a problem until the problem is solved.
  • Ciceronianus
    2.9k
    Perhaps gentiles in Israel could be confined to ghettos. There are precedents, of sorts.
  • jgill
    3.6k
    Why stop at open borders? If someone lives in the US, shouldn't they be allowed to vote - especially since they pay taxes? I bring this up as devil's advocate.
  • Xanatos
    98
    That would likely make the problem worse rather than better. A ghettoized population might be more rather than less susceptible to radicalization. In contrast, if gentiles will live among Jews, intermarry with Jews in large numbers (almost half of Israeli Jews said that they would be willing to consider marrying a non-Jew if they lived in the Diaspora: https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/nearly-half-of-israeli-jews-would-consider-wedding-non-jew-if-in-diaspora-583715 ), speak Hebrew, celebrate the Jewish holidays, learn about Jewish culture, traditions, history, and literate at school and at university, et cetera, then there are likely to be significantly less problems between gentiles and Jews in Israel. Of course, some gentiles (Russians, Belarusians, etc) might be more suited for such a large-scale assimilation into Israeli Jewish life than some other gentiles (Arabs, Muslims, etc)--at least if we're hastily generalizing here. For Russians and Belarusians, for instance, there is already a huge ex-USSR community in Israel which they can integrate into and whom they can intermarry en masse.
  • Xanatos
    98
    I'd actually argue that it would indeed be fairer to get rid of hereditary voting rights and to have uniform voting rules for everyone, citizen and non-citizen alike: For instance, being required to live in the US for a grand total of 18 years and also not having the citizenship of any other country (regardless of whether or not one is already a US citizen). And also being required to pass the equivalent of the US citizenship exam before one can actually vote even if one is already a US citizen. Any deviations from this rule would, of course, be subjected to strict scrutiny.
  • Xanatos
    98
    How exactly do you propose ruining this dictator's life? Other than of course by overthrowing and executing them, a la Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi? But of course doing this has its own problems--subsequent risk of instability, et cetera.

    Sanctions are more likely to affect ordinary people than the political elites of a particular country, no? Ex.: the sanctions on Iraq between 1991 and 2003.
  • Xanatos
    98
    To elaborate on my previous post here, the US actually did have alien suffrage in certain states up to the early 20th century or so. We could indeed bring back this tradition if we want--for instance, through a US Supreme Court ruling that would state that the 14th Amendment's guarantee of equal protection of the laws requires US states to allow alien suffrage. Extremely far-fetched right now, no doubt, but in 2050 or 2100? Who knows!
  • FrankGSterleJr
    89
    Many migrants from the southern hemisphere are fleeing from climactic-change-related chronic crop failure that is mostly caused by the northern hemisphere’s chronic fossil-fuel burning, which began with the Industrial Revolution. While the U.S.-border Haitian-refugee situation, for example, may not be climate-change related, the border-guard physical confrontations sound/look scary and definitely 'un-Christian'. It's as though they are perceived as being disposable human life, their suffering somehow less-worthy. One can read so many mean-spirited posts about these human beings on numerous mainstream news websites. ...

    So many migrants and refugees are rightfully desperate human beings, perhaps enough so to work very hard for basic food and shelter. And they very much want to work. ... Here in southwestern B.C., I've noticed over decades the exceptionally strong work ethic practiced by migrants, especially in the produce harvesting sector. It's typically back-busting work that almost all post-second-generation Westerners won’t tolerate for ourselves. Such laborers work very hard and should be treated humanely, including timely access to Covid-19 vaccination and proper work-related protections, but often enough are not. …

    While I don’t support U.S./Canada-based businesses exporting labor abroad at very low wages if there are unemployed Americans/Canadians who want that work, I can imagine such laborers being much more productive than their born-and-reared-here counterparts. I’m not saying that a strong work ethic is a trait racially/genetically inherited by one generation from a preceding generation. Rather, I believe, it is an admirable culturally determined factor, though also in large part motivated by the said culture’s internal and surrounding economic and political conditions.

    I anticipate that if they (as citizens) resided here for a number of decades, their strong work ethics and higher-than-average productivity, unfortunately, likely would gradually diminish as these motivated laborers’ descendant generations’ young people become accustomed to the relatively easier Western way of work. One can already witness this effect in many of them getting caught up in much of our overall liberal culture — attire, lingo, nightlife, as well as work. I’ve also found that ‘Canadian values’ assimilation often means the unfortunate acquisition of a distasteful yet strong sense of entitlement.
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