That is speaking of the "one is the many" as monad means one and is represented as a circle. — Athena

I had not thought of monads apart from Leibniz's mathematical contributions. I now see that there is much more to the monad than I knew. Thanks for bringing this up. :cool:

"Peace, that glorious moment in time when everyone stops and reloads." ~Thomas Jefferson

Looks like a damn fool reason for people killing each other doesn't it. People who value philosophy need to raise our cultural value of it and the notion that democracy is rule by reason. For world peace, and to actualize our human potential that needs to replace religion. — Athena

The problem is that democracy is not necessarily rule by reason. Democracy is rule by popular will but this will might not be reasonable. You also seem to suggest that the concept of the trinity as three aspects is somehow based in math and therefore more reasonable. Moreover that therefore people holding that view are less prone to killing. That all is false. the ISlamic god is just as mathematically reasonable because rooted in the number one. Also Christians that did all recognise the trinity killed each other mercilessly see the 30 years war in Europe.

:up:

Is God a mathematician? — Mario Livio

Here's something interesting I picked up from the book Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari - math, as a language, is what linguists call, a partial script i.e. it's (usually) designed for a specific task. Historically, partial scripts were the first written languages humans developed and, unsurprisingly, they were tailored to make keeping numerical records and accounting easier.

Does that mean, since as Galileo said, "mathematics is the alphabet in which God has written the universe," God(s) was/were, well, just beginning to learn language when they created the universe?

Partial scripts were more primitive than full scripts and, it's claimed, one led to the other, probably after some early linguists had an epiphany: Hey! If I can create a script for numerical information, why not for all the other kinds of information out there? That would be really cool!

I had not thought of monads apart from Leibniz's mathematical contributions. I now see that there is much more to the monad than I knew. Thanks for bringing this up. :cool: — jgill

You might appreciate the book A Beginner's Guide to the Constructing the Universe- the Mathematical Archetypes of Nature, Art, and Science, by Michael S. Schneider. That clarifies how math became science and is a good understanding of the foundation of logic and philosophical thought.

The problem is that democracy is not necessarily rule by reason. Democracy is rule by popular will but this will might not be reasonable. You also seem to suggest that the concept of the trinity as three aspects is somehow based in math and therefore more reasonable. Moreover that therefore people holding that view are less prone to killing. That all is false. the ISlamic god is just as mathematically reasonable because rooted in the number one. Also Christians that did all recognise the trinity killed each other mercilessly see the 30 years war in Europe. — Tobias

When a democracy is no longer rule by reason, it is no longer a legitimate democracy. Education is essential to democracy and that is not education for technology! Because the US replaced liberal education with the German model of education for technology, it is now what it defended its democracy against. A police state serving military might, and self-destructing because of reactionary politics. Only when democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended,

A saw is not a more reasonable tool than a hammer your logic seems wrong to me. I think in general Americans need a better understanding of their mathematical heritage. Many of the founding fathers were Masons and the trinity is three forces keeping each other in check and balance. If anyone becomes weak, the triangle breaks and the democracy ends.

Let me clarify, absolutely, the trinity is three aspects or three forces, and this knowledge is based on math and therefore is good reasoning. That knowledge is essential to a population that wants democracy.

My reasoning is not false but the people in the US are ignorant of math, logos, and cause and effect. They are not only ignorant but their thinking is way too short-term and narrow! The US entering the mid-east to control oil and establish strategic power there, was sure to be expressive and have unpleasant ramifications. Doing so has seriously weakened the US, or at least Biden's hold on power, as the mistakes of the past are now in his lap. I hate to think of what will happen if this results in Trump's return to power because Trump is destructive to our relationship with our allies when these relationships are more important than ever before. My point is bad reasoning gets bad results, and good reasoning gets good results and democracy is about understanding that.

Our democracy in the US, was not only less prone to war, but intentionally unable to engage in war because we demobilized our military force at the end of wars, until Eisenhower and the Korean war. That is the point in time when we because the Military-Industrial Complex we defended our democracy against in two world wars. During the first world war, we were best known for our missionaries and charity and it took us a year to mobilize for war. Around the world, we were known for being anti-war and working for peace. One step to world peace was President Kennedy's Peace Core, which is sent around the world to help people resolve serious problems and have better lives, without military force.

When a democracy is no longer rule by reason, it is no longer a legitimate democracy. Education is essential to democracy and that is not education for technology! Because the US replaced liberal education with the German model of education for technology, it is now what it defended its democracy against. A police state serving military might, and self-destructing because of reactionary politics. Only when democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended, — Athena

What you perform here is a 'no true scotsman' falacy. You state that a democracy is defined as rule by reason and when I object you tell me it is no longer a democracy if it is not. That way you simply define democracy to suit your own terms. However, in no literature have I ever come across such a definition. The rule of law maybe, but the rule by reason? It is also very unclear what that is supposed to mean.
I am also interested what you consider to be the 'German model'. Last time I checked German education was quite good environmentally friendly and very pro democracy.

A saw is not a more reasonable tool than a hammer your logic seems wrong to me. I think in general Americans need a better understanding of their mathematical heritage. Many of the founding fathers were Masons and the trinity is three forces keeping each other in check and balance. If anyone becomes weak, the triangle breaks and the democracy ends. — Athena

I would recommend more political education if that is your point, not more mathematics. The trinity seems an odd way to go when what you are after is called the trias politica written down by Montesquieu, the metaphor of a triangle and all. By all means teach it, but why mathematics?

Let me clarify, absolutely, the trinity is three aspects or three forces, and this knowledge is based on math and therefore is good reasoning. That knowledge is essential to a population that wants democracy. — Athena

Of course it is not mathematics. Mathematics deals with purely formal quantities. You define forces that keep each other in check. There is nothing mathematical about that. A triangle is a mathematical figure, no more no less. The content you give it stems from theology. that is all fine, but it is not math.

That knowledge is essential to a population that wants democracy. — Athena

Why would knowledge of a trinity be necessary for democracy?

My reasoning is not false but the people in the US are ignorant of math, logos, and cause and effect. They are not only ignorant but their thinking is way too short-term and narrow! The US entering the mid-east to control oil and establish strategic power there, was sure to be expressive and have unpleasant ramifications. Doing so has seriously weakened the US, or at least Biden's hold on power, as the mistakes of the past are now in his lap. I hate to think of what will happen if this results in Trump's return to power because Trump is destructive to our relationship with our allies when these relationships are more important than ever before. My point is bad reasoning gets bad results, and good reasoning gets good results and democracy is about understanding that. — Athena

That might all be true, but I have no idea what knowledge of angles, goniometrics or triangles have to do with it.

Our democracy in the US, was not only less prone to war, but intentionally unable to engage in war because we demobilized our military force at the end of wars, until Eisenhower and the Korean war. That is the point in time when we because the Military-Industrial Complex we defended our democracy against in two world wars. During the first world war, we were best known for our missionaries and charity and it took us a year to mobilize for war. Around the world, we were known for being anti-war and working for peace. One step to world peace was President Kennedy's Peace Core, which is sent around the world to help people resolve serious problems and have better lives, without military force. — Athena

I am all in favour of peace, but the US not engaging in war before Korea is false, it entered the first and second world war on the side of the allies, it fought wars against Mexico and Spain to name but a few and during and before those, it managed to slaughter the native American population and massacre each other from 1861 to 1864. The US has a nice track record when it comes to going to war. I am not bashing the US here by the way, it is not judgment, just fact.

You seem to curiously relate politics to theology to mathematics... why though is beyond me, creating some odd mathematical mysticism that you seem to want our kids to learn. If you want to make a point about the usefulness of the triangle as a metaphor and its perennial use in theology, politics and philosophy, than you have an interesting point. However, you hang way too much on it and it breaks the whole wall apart you have been masoning here.

You seem to curiously relate politics to theology to mathematics... why though is beyond me, creating some odd mathematical mysticism that you seem to want our kids to learn — Tobias

Good point.

What you perform here is a 'no true scotsman' falacy. You state that a democracy is defined as rule by reason and when I object you tell me it is no longer a democracy if it is not. That way you simply define democracy to suit your own terms. However, in no literature have I ever come across such a definition. The rule of law maybe, but the rule by reason? It is also very unclear what that is supposed to mean.
I am also interested what you consider to be the 'German model'. Last time I checked German education was quite good environmentally friendly and very pro democracy. — Tobias

I love that, if you have not read what I am saying is so about democracy, it must not be so? Is there Christianity without charity? Well, there is not democracy without reasoning.

The problem is democracy does not have one book that is the authority on what democracy is. However, we have the gods who argued until they had a consensus on the best reason and democracy is an imitation of the gods. We also have Socrates and Plato who speak against democracy because people can be persuaded by bad reasoning. Which in Socrate's day lead to a war with Sparta and Athens lost! He was pretty displeased with Athen's democracy but he gave his life to support it and freedom of speech. His life was devoted to teaching better reasoning and expanding the conscience. In his explanation of the Republic, it would-be philosophers who rule. In the past, the US attempted to prepare everyone for democracy, so we have a republic that through education had a culture for democracy.

In old test books, democracy is defined like this "Democracy is a way of life and social organization which above all others is sensitive to the dignity and worth of the individual human personality, affirming the fundamental moral and political equality of all men and recognizing no barriers of race, religion, or circumstance." From the Democracy Series and among the characteristics of democracy is "the search for truth". It also explains democracy thrives on criticism. We prepared the young for democracy with reading that built moral character and was focused on learning concepts and speaking well. Education was about good citizenship and that included lifelong learning essential to being a well-informed and responsible citizen. Our notion of liberty came with education for good moral judgment.

Then we have Cicero “God's law is 'right reason.' When perfectly understood it is called 'wisdom.' When applied by government in regulating human relations it is called 'justice.” Before education for technology, we were educated for liberty and justice and a democratic way of life.

When the Prussians took control of Germany, they centralized education and focused it on technology for military and industrial purpose. They had a Christian Republic but it was authoritarian, and that is what the US has become. That is not what we defended in two world wars.

You seem to curiously relate politics to theology to mathematics... why though is beyond me, creating some odd mathematical mysticism that you seem to want our kids to learn
— Tobias

Good point. — jgill

Not a good point. A misunderstanding. Look, to me Pi is absolutely mystical. It seems perfectly logical to me to think math is mystical, but it does not come with supernatural notions.

However, Christianity does get us all snarled up with superstition so I can appreciate your reluctance to consider the importance of math in relation to rule by reason. But it is very important to understand the trinity of God is what separates Islam from Christianity. Interestingly the Arabs agreed with Christian notions so it adopted Christianity instead of Judaism, but it could not accept the trinity of God, so it accepted Jesus as a profit, not as a god. I want this to be clearly understood to improve the chances of using reason to bring about peace. The real break between Islam and Christianity is the argument of one god or three. It is different ways of understanding the power of the trinity as one or three separate gods.

The trinity of the American republic's government is as important as the trinity of God and this is devoid of superstitious notions. It is understanding the power of the trinity is like the reason a stool has 3 legs. A stool with only two legs would never work. Three, the trinity is very important. I don't think we want Trump on a unicycle no matter how entertaining he is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1jm-2WfTvk

I am all in favour of peace, but the US not engaging in war before Korea is false, it entered the first and second world war on the side of the allies, it fought wars against Mexico and Spain to name but a few and during and before those, it managed to slaughter the native American population and massacre each other from 1861 to 1864. The US has a nice track record when it comes to going to war. I am not bashing the US here by the way, it is not judgment, just fact.

You seem to curiously relate politics to theology to mathematics... why though is beyond me, creating some odd mathematical mysticism that you seem to want our kids to learn. If you want to make a point about the usefulness of the triangle as a metaphor and its perennial use in theology, politics and philosophy, than you have an interesting point. However, you hang way too much on it and it breaks the whole wall apart you have been masoning here. — Tobias

What I said is the US demobilized after wars, until Eisenhower and the Korean war. That is not a false statement.

Do you know what the Masons are? Do you know several of the US founding fathers were Masons? If you do, you should know they designed Washington D.C. and the US government with an understanding of the power of math and form.

Also since the beginning of civilizations religion has given governments legitimacy. And in a slightly different take on the importance of the gods, the Capitol Building in D.C. has a mural of the gods that make a republic strong. This link will explain what the gods have to do with the democracy of the US. https://www.visitthecapitol.gov/exhibitions/capitol-story/apotheosis-washington They go with being a Mason and the founding fathers' thrill of making history as we move closer to a new age. If you understand these gods, you know what math and science have to do with our democracy.

I love that, if you have not read what I am saying is so about democracy, it must not be so? Is there Christianity without charity? Well, there is not democracy without reasoning. — Athena

Que? I have read what you wrote. And I explained that what you wrote was a called a no true scotssman fallacy. And yes, there absolutely is Christianity without clarity. If there is something emphatically unclear it is religion, even by its own lights. The Islaamic theologican an philosopher Al Ghazali has written most interesting things about fate despite rational unclarity.

And then, the analogy is shoddy as well. Why would clairty and religion have anything to do with democracy and reason? You just rpoclaim something but do not argue your point.

The problem is democracy does not have one book that is the authority on what democracy is. However, we have the gods who argued until they had a consensus on the best reason and democracy is an imitation of the gods. — Athena

Wut? And they forgot to call me when the gods started to discuss under the veil of ignorance?

In his explanation of the Republic, it would-be philosophers who rule. In the past, the US attempted to prepare everyone for democracy, so we have a republic that through education had a culture for democracy. — Athena

The US id not prepare everyone for democracy. In fact the US supported ruthless dictatorships in South America.

In old test books, democracy is defined like this "Democracy is a way of life and social organization which above all others is sensitive to the dignity and worth of the individual human personality, affirming the fundamental moral and political equality of all men and recognizing no barriers of race, religion, or circumstance." — Athena

Yes and not with 'rule by reason'.

From the Democracy Series and among the characteristics of democracy is "the search for truth" — Athena

Great, by what political philosopher have those been composed? The search for truth also takes place in non democratic countries. In face the scientific revolution preceded democracy.

Then we have Cicero “God's law is 'right reason.' When perfectly understood it is called 'wisdom.' When applied by government in regulating human relations it is called 'justice.” Before education for technology, we were educated for liberty and justice and a democratic way of life. — Athena

By whom? By the Romans? They ended up revering an emperor as God. You might be right there is all things wrong with current education, but your reasoning is incomprehensible. Perhaps caused by this shoddy education system I am thinking. You link epochs and ideas to each other without any rhyme or reason.

When the Prussians took control of Germany, they centralized education and focused it on technology for military and industrial purpose. They had a Christian Republic but it was authoritarian, and that is what the US has become. That is not what we defended in two world wars. — Athena

Yes, all the more proof that Christianity is not related to democracy. The Prussian state was a militaristic 'obrigkeitsstaat', an perhaps the US has become more militaristic. I do not really know though.

The trinity of the American republic's government is as important as the trinity of God and this is devoid of superstitious notions. It is understanding the power of the trinity is like the reason a stool has 3 legs. A stool with only two legs would never work. Three, the trinity is very important. I don't think we want Trump on a unicycle no matter how entertaining he is — Athena

Your argument seems to run like this: triangles are important in philosophy. triangles are important in christianity, therefore Christianity is based on philosophy, but that is simply an invalid argument.

Most stools have four legs. I also like the number three and indeed in Islam the trinity is not accepted, but whether it is more or less reasonable to do so is up for grabs. The thread of argument that seems interesting in your ramblings is the following: The Christian metaphor of the trinity is a worthwhile heuristic device because it allows us to conceive of power as an interplay of forces without having to conceive of some centroifugal point. The number three holds value in argumentation because of how our minds work. That is all well and good. It is interesting and should be further worked out, but get rid of all the other bollocks, such as politics, democracy, justice and the military industrial complex.

What I said is the US demobilized after wars, until Eisenhower and the Korean war. That is not a false statement. — Athena

That might be true or not but that was not a statement, but an argument in support of your statement that US democracy could not go to war. That statement is false.

Do you know what the Masons are? Do you know several of the US founding fathers were Masons? If you do, you should know they designed Washington D.C. and the US government with an understanding of the power of math and form. — Athena

Sure I know and sure I know they like triangles, but that notion was known in political philosophy before the US founding fathers. It always baffles me how much US citizens revere a club of land owners who had to bash out a constitution. They did a fine job but were by no means demi-gos, just people. People are inspired by ideas current at the time. The notions llike limited government and division of the political in three branches have been around since John Locke. Add tot hat that US democracy is a flawed form of democracy. The reason for that has nothing to do with triangles or reason. but with power politics between the populous states focused on trade and the less populous ones focusing on agriculture.

Also since the beginning of civilizations religion has given governments legitimacy. And in a slightly different take on the importance of the gods, the Capitol Building in D.C. has a mural of the gods that make a republic strong. This link will explain what the gods have to do with the democracy of the US. https://www.visitthecapitol.gov/exhibitions/capitol-story/apotheosis-washington They go with being a Mason and the founding fathers' thrill of making history as we move closer to a new age. If you understand these gods, you know what math and science have to do with our democracy. — Athena

Seems to me an early commercial for George Washington's rule.... The fact that images of God or Gods are used says nothing. about the republic being founded on reason. Founded on mysticism is more like it.

edit: there is another interesting line you could take and that is the necessity of truth or better consensus on facts for democracy. What I do concede is that democracy cannot survive when it is internally so divided that there is not only no consensus on politics based on facts but on the facts themselves. That is an interesting line, but then drop all the links with Chrristianity.

Que? I have read what you wrote. And I explained that what you wrote was a called a no true scotssman fallacy. And yes, there absolutely is Christianity without clarity. If there is something emphatically unclear it is religion, even by its own lights. The Islaamic theologican an philosopher Al Ghazali has written most interesting things about fate despite rational unclarity. — Tobias

What a wonderful to start the day, a good cup of coffee and a good argument. :grin: What you said may be true but it stretches my imagination to think there could be a Christian group that does not think acts of charity are essential to being Christian. But a person who does not believe Jesus is a savior can not be a Christian, right? Maybe that is a better analogy? I really do not believe there can be a democracy without reasoning, however, I can totally believe people who do not reason can believe they have a democracy. This might be a good time to ask what are the characteristics of democracy and question how many of them can be missing before the democracy is no longer a democracy?

And then, the analogy is shoddy as well. Why would clairty and religion have anything to do with democracy and reason? You just proclaim something but do not argue your point.

Because, when we do not have our facts right, we get bad results. It is very important that we have our facts right. Following Trump and ignoring the science of ending a pandemic has very bad consequences. Committing acts of war has very bad consequences and it is immoral to do so if it can be prevented.

Wut? And they forgot to call me when the gods started to discuss under the veil of ignorance?

Well, you were not born yet. :lol: Actually you do have a seat at the table and that is exactly what democracy is about. The Athenians concluded logos is the controlling force of the universe and even the gods are limited by logos. That means it is important to discover logos (cause and effect) and not so important to know the gods or argue god's truth. To be a good citizen you should know Homer's stories, and that is like learning good manners, but what really matters is understanding how the universe works. Welcome to science and democracy.

The US did not prepare everyone for democracy. In fact the US supported ruthless dictatorships in South America.

Didn't that happened after 1958? When the US began preparing for the Military-Industrial Complex and dropped education for good moral judgment and citizenship. I would not have an argument if I had not studied the history of education and learned of the German difference. What is your source of information? I will not deny that the US has used gunboat diplomacy, but that was not wars approved by congress. Athens did the same thing the US has done after the Prussian war and Sparta kicked their butt. This could derail the thread so I don't want to explain that but both democracies were around 200 years before thinking their shit didn't stink and it was their destiny to rule.

Yes and not with 'rule by reason'.

Logos is the controlling force of the universe. We either understand it correctly and get good results, or we do not and get bad results. Democracy is not about a God and being His favorite people. It is understanding morals, how the universe works, and good manners. It is about right reason.

From the Democracy Series and among the characteristics of democracy is "the search for truth"
— Athena

Great, by what political philosopher have those been composed? The search for truth also takes place in non democratic countries. In face the scientific revolution preceded democracy.

First point- we had education for democracy because only when democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended and is liberty possible. That is social control by culture, not a polices state as we have now. It was the educators who defined and taught good character, independent thinking, and democratic principles. What they taught was based on Greek and Roman classics because that literacy is essential to our democracy. That education was dependent on literature, reading more than one book (the bible) to understand our democracy.

Then we have Cicero “God's law is 'right reason.' When perfectly understood it is called 'wisdom.' When applied by government in regulating human relations it is called 'justice.” Before education for technology, we were educated for liberty and justice and a democratic way of life.
— Athena

By whom? By the Romans? They ended up revering an emperor as God. You might be right there is all things wrong with current education, but your reasoning is incomprehensible. Perhaps caused by this shoddy education system I am thinking. You link epochs and ideas to each other without any rhyme or reason.

You are asking excellent questions and this may result in me completing a textbook for grade schools because you are helping me understand the questions that need to be answered.

Yes, my reasoning is incomprehensible because there is such a HUGE lack of information! You might see a running thread in what I am saying. It begins with understanding logos is the controlling force of the universe, and from there includes mention of what Greek and Roman classics have to do with understanding not only democracy but science as well. A liberal education is about those classics, math (to learn how to think), and science. Thinking education for technology is better, is believing a lie passed on by those who would rule over us and have been educating our young to be products for industry in a nation controlled by them. Effectively we have returned to a Dark Age, because we lost the knowledge of the Enlightenment.

Yes, all the more proof that Christianity is not related to democracy. The Prussian state was a militaristic 'obrigkeitsstaat', an perhaps the US has become more militaristic. I do not really know though.

You are getting it! :grin: I wish I had a bag of gold coins to give you for being the best at comprehending what I am saying. Even if all our weapons were thrown in the sea, we would be living under military order, not the democratic order we had. And this is directly related to reactionary politics and the dysfunction in Congress, the violence on our streets, the tightening of our liberty and strengthening police state, which has gotten frighteningly bad since 911, and Trump, our Hitler for the very same reasons Germany loved Hitler.

Understand, this destruction of our liberty and democracy is the result of adopting the German models of bureaucracy and education. The bureaucrat model is Prussian military order applied to citizens and shifts power and authority from the individual to the state. This frustrated the hell out of Trump, and our changed reality should concern all of us, but in over 10 years on the internet, I have not anyone who wants to think about the change in bureaucratic order and what the change in education has to do with that. Unfortunately, we are no longer the democracy we defended and Christianity is a huge part of the problem. Christians can either support liberty or authoritarianism. Which they support depends on their education. Democracy is about logos, not a God and a kingdom, and there is no hope for us if we don't get this right.

Your argument seems to run like this: triangles are important in philosophy. triangles are important in christianity, therefore Christianity is based on philosophy, but that is simply an invalid argument.

Yes, Christianity is based on philosophy. "In the beginning, was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". John 1:1 There is the important trinity. "The word" is also "logos" but the word is our word for logos and a lot is lost in the translation. Unfortunately, that philosophy was tied to Judaism and eastern demonology and spun out as a religion of miracles. That went far off the path of Greek philosophy.

Most stools have four legs. I also like the number three and indeed in Islam the trinity is not accepted, but whether it is more or less reasonable to do so is up for grabs. The thread of argument that seems interesting in your ramblings is the following: The Christian metaphor of the trinity is a worthwhile heuristic device because it allows us to conceive of power as an interplay of forces without having to conceive of some centroifugal point. The number three holds value in argumentation because of how our minds work. That is all well and good. It is interesting and should be further worked out, but get rid of all the other bollocks, such as politics, democracy, justice and the military industrial complex.

Correct the trinity is not accepted in Islam. As I explained, the Romans did not accept it either, resulting in Christians killing each other in a fight about the trinity being three gods or one. For the Romans to accept the trinity of God it was essential to create a Roman vocabulary to translate the Greek concept. This did not happen in Arab territory so they were stuck with the notion that the trinity is 3 gods, not 1 and therefore, Christianity was in error. The Arab community was familiar with Judaism and Christianity and Mohammed simply correct the Christian error and Isam holds that Jesus is a prophet, not a god. Your argument seems to demonstrate the problem people had with the trinity.

"The Christian metaphor of the trinity is a worthwhile heuristic device because it allows us to conceive of power as an interplay of forces without having to conceive of some centroifugal point." Beautiful! Quantum physics and logos! Can you change your mind a little and think of the trinity as universal law instead of a metaphor? I think you have missed the power of 3. That is a real law of physics, not a metaphor. I suppose you could have a stool with 4, 5, or 6 legs, but you can not have a stool with one unsupported leg or 2 legs. Physically that just does not work. Now contemplate, instead of having a binary conscious, your consciousness was of the trinity in all things, not just god, but stools and a balanced government. What if you thought with the power of 3? Executive, legislative, and the judgment of if this both are within the law of the constitution. These are like the legs of a stool. The form give strength and balance. See? it is not just the number but form as well.

What I said is the US demobilized after wars, until Eisenhower and the Korean war. That is not a false statement.
— Athena
That might be true or not but that was not a statement, but an argument in support of your statement that US democracy could not go to war. That statement is false.

? Gunboat diplomacy is not a declared war. I don't think I ended a statement with the US could not go to war. The US could not go to war without the permission of congress. So we called Vietnam a military action instead of war. Then we change things to give the President greater war powers, and that lacks the wisdom of our forefathers, who intensionally made it hard for the US to go to war, so what followed 911 could not happen!!!! Excuse me, but I feel passionate about this! Our forefathers strongly opposed supporting Britain and paying taxes so Britain could colonize the world. Our constitution was designed to prevent the US from doing what Britain was doing. What some people still understand is the agreement was to not spend our money on military expenses above the minimal cost of defense and when we entered WWI and WWII it took a year to mobilize for those wars. Had we been under attack, we would not have had a good defense because we did not live for war as we do now.

Sure I know and sure I know they like triangles, but that notion was known in political philosophy before the US founding fathers. It always baffles me how much US citizens revere a club of land owners who had to bash out a constitution. They did a fine job but were by no means demi-gos, just people. People are inspired by ideas current at the time. The notions llike limited government and division of the political in three branches have been around since John Locke. Add tot hat that US democracy is a flawed form of democracy. The reason for that has nothing to do with triangles or reason. but with power politics between the populous states focused on trade and the less populous ones focusing on agriculture.

I am going to cry. Of course, the governing trinity was known long before the US. I am not understanding why you think that point needs to be argued? Before Locke there was Cicero and before Cicero was Greek philosophy. Cicero studied in Athens and that brings us to number and form and universal law. I would love to argue further the power of the President, the Senate and the House of Representatives, and the Executive, legislature, and judges, as the power of trinities, but I have to run.

Seems to me an early commercial for George Washington's rule.... The fact that images of God or Gods are used says nothing. about the republic being founded on reason. Founded on mysticism is more like it.

Of course, if you know nothing about the gods and our forefather's relationship to them, you do not understanding the meanings. Your judgment should not be based on what you do not know.

I am quoting from Michael S. Schneider's book "A Beginner's Guide to the Universe". This is an advanced understanding of the trinity. It is about the trinity and the enneagram. The enneagram is made by overlapping three triangles so that they make a star inside a circle. It relates to Egyptian gods and the flooding cycles.

The inner lines of the enneagram show us how different parts of the year have inner connections. For example, perhaps you initiate an action on February 10. Taking action is like planting a seed that develops slowly, eventually producing flower and fruit in their seasons. Every process needs time to germinate and transform in its unique sequence. Its outer order around the circle based on the Triad shows us the event's familiar sequence in sidereal time. But the inner lines based on the Heptad show us how our actions ripple and weave across the circle of the year in harmonic time. Lines from point one, February 10 tell us that our action will have ramifications on June 10 and October 9. This system may seem farfetched, but it works as an agricultural calendar whose Triadic structure of seed (January 1) flower (May 1), and fruit (August 29) indicate proper times for sowing, tending, and harvesting. The Heptad's inner lines show the necessary relations between them. In this structure of four months each- Ahmet, season of inundation and sowing; Pert, season of growth; and Shemu, season of harvest and inundation. — Micheal S. Schneider

Christians adopted the enneagram for explaining religious emotions. The Fruit of the Holy Spirit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_Holy_Spirit