• Nicholas Mihaila
    16
    From an ethical standpoint, what is an appropriate level of honesty? If viewed from a pragmatic perspective the question is easy. As a rule, tell the truth, but, if necessary to spare somebody’s feelings, tell a “white lie,” assuming the matter is fairly inconsequential. But how does that fit in with ethics?

    Lately I’ve been thinking about this quite a bit, particularly in regards to relationships. If, for instance, a girls asks you, “Do you think I’m prettier than her?” pointing to another girl, should you always answer honestly? You can imagine scenarios that are much more sensitive, but you get the idea.

    Anyway, I’m really just looking for input. I hate the idea of having a “nuanced” position when it comes to honesty. I’d rather always tell the truth, but that can cause problems. Any thoughts or suggestions?
  • Tom Storm
    8.3k
    Hypothetical. Let's say you know Jews are hiding from the Nazi's in an attic of the home next door to you. An SS officer asks you if you know if any Jews are hiding nearby. Do you tell the truth?
  • Nicholas Mihaila
    16
    Absolutely not. So lies can be ethical, as you pointed out. I'll have to think about that some more. That's a great example.
  • DingoJones
    2.8k


    Thats the problem principal based ethics, when certain actions are prohibited (ethically speaking). Lying, killing, stealing…as soon as you suggest a particular action is “wrong”, its trivially easy to come up with clear exceptions to the rule.
    In the nazi scenario above the person who tells the truth about the jews because its “the ethical thing to do” is a moral monster. These principal based ethics, by which I mean “so and so action is ethically wrong”, lead to logical contradictions and therefore should be rejected imo.
    I would add further that principal based ethics are lazy (or hopelessly ambitious) as well. A proper ethical consideration should be case by case, the specifics of each moral situation logged and analysed. While Its understandable that that isnt always practical and ethics will inevitably lose out to practicality at times I would say that in general these sorts of dogmatic servitude to whatever principal don’t even qualify as an ethical principal. In the nazi example we all imagine the truth teller to be quite the opposite of an ethical person and Im not sure the vast majority of ethical principals people have function any different logically speaking/
  • BC
    13.1k
    “Do you think I’m prettier than her?”Nicholas Mihaila

    "What is ethical" isn't always obvious.

    An objective evaluation of appearance is not being sought here. What is being requested is validation. The questioner wants to hear that she is an attractive person. Is there some reason you can not validate this person by saying "yes"?

    The SS officer asking you about Jews hiding nearby is a clearcut ethical conflict between a simplistic, rigid rule (always tell the truth) and a higher requirement that one protect the innocent or that one preserve life.

    Sort your ethical priorities in descending order, from what is the most important ethical consideration; to what ethical considerations are of middling importance, and which ethical considerations are least important. What can you live with, and what can you not?

    The key ethical consideration should help you determine the course of action for lesser ethical considerations. So, what is your top ethical consideration?
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    Kant, Lectures on Ethics, has a lot to say about lying. A small sample:

    "I may make a false statement when my purpose is to hide from another what is in my mind and when the latter can assume that such is my purpose, his own purpose being to make a wrong use of the truth" (p. 227, ital. added). But I cannot, Kant adds, at the same time assure him that I am telling him the truth, because while I do him in his person no injustice, "I am none the less a liar."

    On white lies, same source, "The forcing from me of a statement under conditions which convince me that improper use would be made of it is the only case in which I can be justified in telling a white lie," (p. 228).

    But: "There are no lies which may not be the source of evil. A liar is a coward.... But a stout-heated man will love truth and will not recognize a casus necessitatis" (p. 229).

    And of interest: "If a man spreads false news, though he does no harm to anyone in particular, he offends against mankind" (p. 227).
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k

    I like the Buddhist take on ethics - it's an amalgamation of utilitarianism and deontological ethics.

    Take @Tom Storm's example of the person who lies to save some Jews from a horrible fate at the hands of Nazis. As per Buddhist ethics, you are rewarded for saving those people but...also punished for the lie you told. Interesting, right?

    A white lie, as the name itself suggests in my humble opinion, is both good (white) and bad (lie). Dialetheists and paraconsistent logicians should feel vindicated for claiming there are true contradictions! Amazing, don't you think?

    To appreciate the contradiction, you need to consider both utilitarianism and deontological ethics, together, as one system of morality.

    @Wayfarer, anything to add/delete/modify?
  • Prishon
    984
    My wife has the uncanny habit to wanno know everything of my whereabouts. I tend to forget taking my phone with me when I go to Amsterdam to visit my mum and granny. Now she is worried that Im gonna buy oxazepam at a local pharmacist. She should be, as I left an addiction to that shit behind me. I took 10 50 mg pills a day. I quit when my provider died (and let me tell you, quiting cold turkey can better be framed as a zero Kelvin turkey!). But I can also buy it on the net. During that zeroK turkey I lost even the ability to buy a train ticket at the automat... But a few months ago, I couldnt resist. I bought some of it on the net (I had to buy bitcoins first). To my surprise an envelope did indeed arrive. She gave me the envelope. "This one's for you. What's in it?". I told her I bought some stamps I saw at an auction. That they were very cheap and I could sell them for more. Now Im not sure what happened the following 24 hours. I cant remember. But certainly she must have noticed something. I couldnt find the rest of the 3 strips of 10. I surely didnt eat them. She didnt say anything about it. Was it wrong to lie about the stamps?
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    My axiom is that an addict, as addict, is not a person, and it is a fundamental and dangerous mistake to treat or regard the addict as a person. If you teach your wife that lesson, you will soon enough not have a wife, nor should have one. As to leaving addiction behind, maybe you leave consumption behind - apparently not, though. But the claim of leaving the addiction behind is not credible and hasn't been for some years; research indicating that the addiction is always there.

    Do yourself and your community a favor and commit yourself. At the moment you appear to be rationalizing and in denial. These being true - if they are - you're a dangerous negative, way worse than useless, until and unless you get corporate-level care.
  • Prishon
    984


    I will kill myself. Thanks for this cheering comment!
  • Prishon
    984
    My axiom is that an addict, as addict, is not a person, and it is a fundamental and dangerous mistake to treat or regard the addict as a persontim wood

    You must change axiom. Im proof its wrong. As far as I (and others) can tell, im a person!
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    Maaaan! Are you born on Pluto?Prishon
    No. what I wrote to you is simply what addicts of my acquaintance, when acting as people, jointly, severally, separately, and repeatedly affirmed. The wisdom of which I had to learn for myself.
  • Prishon
    984
    an addict, as addicttim wood

    Explain! You are the kind of person who never weeps. For sure. I know your kind!
  • Prishon
    984
    commit yourself.tim wood

    Wtf you know about commitment?
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    I did my weeping, until I saw the uselessness of it, and the truth behind what caused it. But you are demonstrating the requisite gift for deflection. And I'm not interested.
  • Prishon
    984


    No. Its unethical. But should this stop me?
  • Prishon
    984
    And I'm not interested.tim wood

    The why did you start?
  • Prishon
    984
    I did my weeping, until I saw the uselessnesstim wood

    Typical!
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    Wtf you know about commitment?Prishon
    By commitment, I mean give yourself over to the folks who will do you good. As to what I know, as with most people, you might be surprised. But instead of deflecting and running, turn around and face the storm. Facing it is always the best way.
  • Prishon
    984
    turn around and face the stormtim wood

    Thats exactly what I do! Its causing the tears.
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    Then you know the truth of it. So don't bulls**t!
  • Prishon
    984
    Then you know the truth of it. So don't bulls**t!tim wood

    Which truth?
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    Go ask the people you've committed yourself to. If they're professional - what I call corporate-level - they will tell you. If not, they may not, But in that case they do neither you nor themselves a favor, and ultimately do you and them harm.
  • Prishon
    984
    Go ask the people you've committed yourself to.tim wood

    My wife is fine with me... She LOVES me... If you know the meaning of that word. The corporate you are talking about "was" indifferent. They give me a daily dose of metaphy.... eeeh, methadone but when I was deep in the hole they didnt care about me. Had they supplies me with oxazepam I wouldnt have been awake and feeling shit for four months. On the other hand, Im free of that stuff now, so maybe it has been good. But they know I could have died from it. Its bad for your memiry, say they.
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    My wife is fine with me... She LOVES me...Prishon
    Then you're lucky; and maybe she should and you're entitled. Who knows, maybe you earned it. An addict will f**k it up, sooner more than later. Are you that addict? (Rhetorical question, answer unnecessary.)
  • Prishon
    984
    Are you that addict?tim wood

    Im not sure. Lets say, Im not standard. Addicted, in Dutch, is "verslaafd", meaning "enslaved". I dont feel as a slave of methadone though.
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    Im not sure.Prishon
    Then be prudent. I am not an addict. So it's useless for us to talk too much about addiction itself. What I know is only from the outside. But I'm up late and you're up very late. Good night.
  • Prishon
    984

    Goodnight. In fact it was better talking to you than the "caring" corporate.
  • Cheshire
    1k
    From an ethical standpoint, what is an appropriate level of honesty?Nicholas Mihaila
    Based on a thread I spun a few weeks ago it comes down to analysis of two parts. One is strict morality and the other one permissibility. It's immoral to lie and permissible to do so if no value is lost as a result. Since, lying to your wife about another woman's appearance doesn't devalue your wife or the other woman; then it is permissible to do so. If for some reason your wife needs objective input and this is some complex gaslighting it would be a hypothetical exception.
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    permissible to [lie] if no value is lost as a result.Cheshire
    Kant differs, what say you to that?
  • Cheshire
    1k
    Kant has a legal definition of lying that is misunderstood. To lie in Kant's legal sense entails cheating some one in some way. It's been misunderstood from people only referencing the secondary arguments against it. Banno gave me a link to a great paper on it a year ago. Verda I want to say is the author.
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.