• PoeticUniverse
    Once this ball starts rolling it is difficult to stop.Pop

    Look deeper into the evident zero-sum balance of the Universe/Cosmos?
  • Pop
    Look deeper into the evident zero-sum balance of the Universe/Cosmos?PoeticUniverse

    Yet here we are, and if zero sum turns out to be true, we still have some time to fill :smile: And what better way to do it than to describe our existence?
  • PoeticUniverse
    and if zero sum turns out to be true, we still have some time to fill :smile:Pop

    I am good at doing nothing and thinking about nothing…


    So called ‘empty’ space is vital,
    For that’s where there’s the recital
    That forms and plays the tunes of reality—

    This grand cosmic symphony,
    As existence fluctuates with the non,
    Those causeless waverings of undulation.

    It was once thought that the shove
    Of this total energy was of
    The order of 10**120 orders of
    Magnitude above.

    Well if that were so near
    then we couldn’t even be here;

    It was the worst calculation
    In all of scientification;
    So we weighed the universe,
    Summing all of its constituent verses.

    The universe weighs nothing at all!

    This too since we found that
    Our universal space was B flat—
    Not just via the 60 degree angles of a small triangle,

    And not only by using stars,
    Nor rays that went from here to Mars
    To Venus and back,

    But all the way back to a degree of the CMBR,
    Which represented 100,000 light years,
    For which we measured the curvature:
    The rays didn’t converge or diverge.

    The ultimate of this geometry
    Is that being flat is the beautiful symmetry
    That leads to yet another beauty: zero.
    The ever returning, conquering hero.

    There was no place special in time
    Nor properties of reason and rhyme.

    Our beloved quantum fluctuations
    Left their imprint all over creation—
    The signature of their emanations
    Written in the CMBR’s variations—

    A magnifying glass upon their revelations,
    As well as in the capitals of matter congregations
    Of galaxies, nebulae, and other condensations.

    What underwrote this glorious expansion
    From such a humble state to a big time mansion?
    It’s called inflation.

    Perhaps there are many such bubbles blown—
    All but one of these pocket universes unknown.

    Where did all this energy come from
    To amount to this astronomical sum?
    It comes from the gravitational field.

    Our universe did not begin with this yield
    Already stored in the gravitational field;
    But, rather, the gravitational field can supply
    The energy because its energy found
    Can become negative without bound.

    As more and more positive energy materializes
    The forms of ever growing region sizes,
    Filled with a high energy scalar field, arise,

    As more and more negative energy materializes
    In the form of expanding regions wielded
    That are filled with a gravitational field.

    There is nothing known that can place a border
    On the amount of inflation that can occur
    While the total energy remains exactly zero…
    Why does this ‘zero’ ever become the hero?
  • Pop

    In yogic logic, as you might be aware, the aim is to be a nobody. And one of the pleasures of life is to think about nothing.

    Everything is something to a somebody, but everything is nothing to a nobody.
  • PoeticUniverse
    think about nothingPop

    'Eternal' not coming from anything…
    Seems the same as saying it's ‘from nothing’.
  • Pop
    'Eternal' not coming from anything…
    Seems the same as saying it's ‘from nothing’.

    The way I understand nothing, is that it provides no information. So I couldn't say whether it is eternal, or otherwise.

    The above statement relates to identity and attachment, rather then the great eternal - whatever that may be.
  • PoeticUniverse
    whatever that may be.Pop

    Is Existence a zero-balance tree
    Of opposites?: matter and its anti,
    The weak vs. strong force, charge polarity—
    All from ‘nothing’, to form reality?

    The universe weighs nothing at all: zero,
    Plus it is electrically neutral.
    The positive kinetic energy of ‘stuff’
    Cancels the negative potential energy of gravity.
  • Pop
    Is Existence a zero-balance tree
    Of opposites?: matter and its anti,
    The weak vs. strong force, charge polarity—
    All from ‘nothing’, to form reality?

    The universe weighs nothing at all: zero,
    Plus it is electrically neutral.
    The positive kinetic energy of ‘stuff’
    Cancels the negative potential energy of gravity.

    This would also describe a pulsating universe. Like a heart beat?
  • PoeticUniverse
    a pulsating universePop

    Some kind of rhythm/balance sustaining…

    Our existence, necessarily, is finite,
    Centered between the Largest and the
    The smallest, mid-point perched, as between the
    The extremes of dispersion/compaction.

    (The exact middle of the large and small is about the size of a piece of dust.)
  • Pop

    I think the big bang is well established by E=mc2, but otherwise there is so little reliable and cross verifiable information. We may be in a Desitter universe, an infinite loop universe, a bubble amongst many bubbles. A multiverse. All these explanations would fit the data on hand.

    This is one of the absolutes that is out of reach to us, imo.

    Our existence, necessarily, is finite,PoeticUniverse

    This depends on what we identify with.
  • Jack Cummins

    I think that we are often left with 'ignorance' and, perhaps, even Wittgenstein's notion of 'uncertainty' glosses over this, or frames the problem with some philosophical glamour or eloquence. I have just been reading various replies in the thread, including the idea of whether the 'big bang' really happened, and, it throws me right back to where I started, with the problemaric nature of the mysterious nature of existence.
  • Jack Cummins

    I think that the idea of the big bang makes sense and can probably be seen as the most coherent concept of how life in the universe took place, but, even then, it does seem that so much of the whys of evolution remain unanswered.
  • 180 Proof
    Any thoughts on the Hartle-Hawking No Boundary Proposal (quantum cosmological) alternative to the (classical) "Big Bang"? It implies nothing "mysterious" as far as I can tell.
  • Jack Cummins

    An interesting link, and I keep an open mind. I certainly don't wish to come to any premature conclusions. I come with a view to having any ideas which I am accustomed to being thrashed, and questioned.
  • PoeticUniverse
    All these explanations would fit the data on hand.Pop

    Investigating the zero-sum balance some more…

    To comprehend the Cosmos, one must, hence,
    Find the why and how of its existence,
    For, incomplete answers will never dress—
    Invariably wrong, by incompleteness.

    Forever Stuff could not have been always,
    For then there is no reason for its plays,
    Its total amount, and its certain stance:
    Stuff had to be created, in balance.

    No thing can be eternal, never made,
    As there’s no reason for the forms’ cascade;
    Yet, there is ‘no-thing’ source to make it from;
    So, the default ‘lawless’ is where it’s done.

    The no-place of no laws is the first cause,
    Requiring nothing but the same ‘because’.
    Forever and always anything goes,
    This being the final answer to the TOEs.

  • PoeticUniverse
    Existents are not infinitely old:
    The tale of their making is ever told;
    They’re not unbreakable/unmakeable;
    They are ‘sum-thing’—zero-sum formable.

    Existents ever back to ‘no-thing’ trace,
    Such as this universe, now in a race,
    Even accelerating, from ‘no-thing’,
    From the fuel that can never stop giving.

    The null balance continues, remains, then,
    As the reason things can’t be so frozen
    That they don’t react, nor so fleeting
    That all remains as chaos everlasting.

    Confirmation abounds: as space and time,
    Charge polarity, matter and its anti,
    Smallest and largest, and reason and rhyme.

    As per the explosive Big Bang Theory,
    Our own ‘verse appeared, nearly instantly,
    Going from not there to here, inflating—
    A low probability happening.

    As for ‘no-thing’, we knew it all along,
    Philosophically, logically—as strong,
    And now, factly—the triad that we love,
    For there’s ‘no-thing’ to make anything of.

    What meaning, then, of every- from ‘no-thing’?
    Well, there was no option, no deciding—
    Information’s content’s in the same row,
    For both ‘no-thing’ and everything: zero.

  • PoeticUniverse
    Still working on Not Anything… have to explore these alternate avenues for completeness…

    The nonexistence of Nothing must then be
    Neutral and symmetrical, totally,
    While existence within nonexistence
    Must be polar—as asymmetrical.

    Matter/anti are each half of ‘at large’,
    Being polar and opposite in charge,
    While photons represent all of the cosmos,
    Being neutral, as both plus and minus.

    Why three space dimensions, plus one of time?
    There must be three dimensions because
    The singularity/nothingness demands
    Existential closure—to nonexistence…

    Which demands the compositional parity
    Of positive and negative, as charge,
    Which in turn demands that space be cubic:
    Dimensionality inevitable!

    The three space dimensions are compositional,
    So the nullification of existence
    At totality must be carried out
    Via electric charge polarity,
    An aspect of time, along with motion.

    It could be that boundless 3D space bounds
    A 4D finite hypervolume hypercube.
    This arrangement is all extent (distance),
    But, inside, one distance converts to time,
    By the speed of light, as spacetime distance.

    Hypervolume (distance^4) =
    c(distance/time) * spacetime(distance^3 * time)

    So, time is but internal to spacetime,
    Being just a difference of space(s).

    So, there is no time, then, externally,
    And, internally, everything happens,
    In the boundless ‘eternity’ within,

    Happening over and over again,
As well as many times, too, everywhere,
    In the boundless ‘infinity’ within.

    The Cosmos contains its own history,
    As well as its own ‘infinite’ spacetime.
    Everything and every-time, both boundless,
    Doth go round and round, perpetually.

    Eternal causes cannot happen,
    And so these must be equation-replaced:
    The zero-sum balance that provides for the
    Conservation laws ultimately precise.

    That's All, folks!
  • Jack Cummins

    You have created further great poems. I particularly like your reflections on time,
    '..there is no time, then, externally
    And, internally everything happens,
    In the boundless 'eternity' within.'
    I think that the way eternity is inner experience rather than an simply as an outer aspect of existence can become overlooked easily.
  • PoeticUniverse
    I think the big bang is well established by E=mc2, but otherwise there is so little reliable and cross verifiable information.Pop

    reflectionsJack Cummins

    We are gearing up here to look at another zero-sum theory, that of Roger Ellman …

    — No Source —

    We are now really pretty sure that there
    Was literally nothing to make anything of,
    And yet there is something here, on this day,
    So we do know that there must be a way.

    — Logic / Science—

    Logic does continue to guide us on,
    But, to be complete, we’ll in the middle meet,
    As also starting from the end of science—
    Which confirmations must match the logic.

    — Two is the Limit For Matter —

    There are only two stable matter particles
    In free space—the electron(-) and the proton(+),
    As ever charged, although oppositely,
    Along with their anti-particles, of course.

    — Of Only Two Ways—

    Therefore, as for electrons and protons,
    There are only the two ways to make them,
    As well as the two and only two ways
    To make positrons and anti-protons.

    — The Unstable Neutral Matter Particle—

    Neutrons are not stable in free space,
    For they decay, within a few minutes,
    Into an electron and proton pair,
    So neutrons are not as stable things.

    — The Energy of the One Way—

    There’s but one stable energy particle
    In free space—the photon, uncharged, as neutral,
    It having no anti-particle at all.
    So, there’s only one way to make pure energy.

    — To the Primal Base —

    The base existent can’t be composite,
    And certainly not fancy or complex,
    For then the parts would precede. It has to
    Be a simple continuous function!

    — The Needle in the Haystack —

    What underlies the perfect symmetry
    For the electron, proton, and photon?
    They and all in existence are of waves!
    Waves are ubiquitous in the universe.

    — Good Looking Logic —

    There has to be a primal wave of ‘something,’
    Opposed by a wave of ‘anti-something’,
    These ‘sum-things’ canceling to nothing,
    As with their derivatives and sub-waves.

    — The Low Probability Event? —

    These primal waves ever jiggle about,
    They as their wave envelopes and sub-waves.
    In some rare ‘moment’ they begin to build,
    Forming a giant neutron—it’s the Cosmic Egg.

    — No Infinite Density! —

    10^85 waves and envelopes build up,
    With 10^85 anti-waves and anti-envelopes,
    And then the two cosine functions cut off,
    Having reached a bandwidth limitation.

    — The Birth of the Universe —

    The whole shebang of the cosmic egg ‘bangs’,
    It being near as large as the cosmos will be,
    Although 10^9 annihilations still occur,
    Leaving 2x10^76 particles as the Universe.

    — All That Unfolds —

    All that follows, unto today and beyond,
    Is the continual unfolding of
    That one big effect of the one big event
    Of the beginning of our universe.

    — Determinism —

    Yes, all is as the ongoing continuation
    Of the one and only effect, making
    What we think of local cause and effect
    To be but of artificial boundaries.

    — The Particles —

    Wave oscillations are the realest existents,
    With but such as mass-energy-charge effects
    Being secondary, which are still real,
    Since from the realest, but not primary.

    — Now We Get it! —

    The electrons/positrons are the wave envelopes,
    The protons/anti-protons are the waves,
    And a photon is of both opposing waves,
    Being 180 degrees out of phase.

    — Wave Properties —

    Wave length makes for mass and its extension,
    While the wave frequency makes for energy,
    And the wave amplitude makes for charge.
    The wave is both the ‘what’ and its effects.

    — The Impossible Particles —

    No wonder there can be no
    Stable neutral matter particles
    And no stable charged energy particle;
    There are no ways to make them.

    — The Golden Braid —

    The universe was a change in form,
    But the primal essence carries on,
    In the wave oscillations of the
    Electron, proton, and the photon.

    — The End of the Line —

    Well, if the waves are the primal ‘what’,
    Then the waves cannot come from another ‘what’,
    But only from like math of an equation,
    For that is all that is left, with nothing.

    — Eternity’s Waiting Room —

    The potential eternity of nothing
    Could not complete, without a happenstance,
    But there was also the potential
    Of near infinite opportunity.
  • Jack Cummins

    I am still reading this thread and my other one, but not paying full attention because my mum had a fall and had to go into hospital. However, I am glad that the the thread is still going because I think that the mystery of consciousness should not be dismissed too quickly.
  • PoeticUniverse
    mystery of consciousnessJack Cummins

    Change the brain and consciousness changes too.
    Take drugs and the emotions change as well.
    Damage the brain and the mind’s damaged too.
    Consciousness emerges only from the brain.

    Consciousness is ever a brain process,
    One which can be halted, never-the-less,
    By anesthesia, poison/drugs,
    A blow to the head, a faint, or by sleep.

    In identifying consciousness,
    We often confuse what is floating in
    The stream of consciousness with the water itself;
    Thus we note not the sea in which we ‘see’.

    The brain interprets reality, and puts
    A face on the waves of sound, light, color, touch,
    And a sense on molecules’ smell and taste.
    Consciousness is the brain’s perception of itself.

    Consciousness mediates thoughts versus outcomes,
    And is distributed all over the body,
    From the nerve spindles to the spine to the brain—
    A way to actionize without moving.

    Conscious Awareness, which can but witness,
    Is a safe haven from which to observe
    The drama of our lives playing in our minds,
    Granting us a sobering distance from it.

    Being is to doing as ground is to figure
    As subject is to object, as essence is to existence,
    As Awareness-Consciousness is to mind-brain,
    As the ultimate simplicity is to the composite.

    I can never share a mind directly,
    For there is no access; we are alone.
    Mind melding works only for the Vulcans.
    This loneliness leads us to company.

    The unbearable solitude of consciousness
    Is relieved by literature, social clubs,
    Movies, caring, friendships, discussion, writing,
    And other sharing acts, but, mostly, by love.
  • Pop
    Our existence, necessarily, is finite,
    — PoeticUniverse

    This depends on what we identify with.

    Investigating the zero-sum balance some more…PoeticUniverse

    I haven't found cosmology or physics to be very fruitful when it comes to this sort of understanding. The Big Bang seems plausible, but the CMB has problems, and a closed universe needs a boundary, as per John Wheeler - how thick is its boundary? What is the boundary of a boundary? ( infinite regress ).

    My interest is consciousness ( more of a fixation then an interest ). I try to understand it from various paradigms, but mostly through a logical analysis. I have found I can reduce consciousness to three components - energy, information, and the thing causing them to self organize. The thing causing them to self organize is characterized by the anthropic principle. Assuming determinism ( with a slight element of randomness ), in order to ask the question why we exist, we require a causal universe that creates a being capable of asking the question. This is an unassailable logical loop that is applicable to every moment of consciousness, and applicable to all structure in the universe. This loop is relevant for all events / points in the universe - what is required is a universe that integrates information - ours does and we are a product of this function. In a sense, we are an expression of the universe.
  • PoeticUniverse
    In a sense, we are an expression of the universe.Pop

    We developed brains that can take in the holistic overall view (in parallel mode) while also being able to linearly recognize the fine details and the relationships between objects. As such, so goes the universe, since we are formed in its image. So then this gives us a clue to the nature of the universe.

    Seeing that the brain is divided into two hemispheres, each with their own characteristic mode of thought, which can communicate with each other, means that we are looking very deeply
    Into the way that reality itself is constructed.

    In other words worth repeating, we are indeed the universe come to life, made in its image—of multiplicity within unity, this scheme reflected in the holistic brain hemisphere operating in a parallel mode and joined to the other hemisphere operating in a sequential detail mode.

    One hemisphere is floodlight of attention illuminating the whole scene at once, but connected to the other brain hemisphere which is a spotlight of attention moving linearly through the scene, they often alternating their cyclic reign, as the yin in the yang and the yang in the yin, making for a rounded life.
  • Pop
    In other words worth repeating, we are indeed the universe come to life, made in its imagePoeticUniverse

    Yes. The clue is that information integrates on its own And deep down, we identify with / as the thing that integrates the information. But when we look around, we see that information integration is not a thing unique to ourselves. Everything integrates information, because information integrates on its own ( in this universe ).

    What we identify with most deeply is the thing that integrates the information?
  • 180 Proof
    Nihilism, therefore, is meaningless too.

    "God" is more anxiety than entity.

    Existence is gratuitous, not mysterious.
  • Pop

    What we identify with most deeply is the thing that integrates the information?Pop
  • Tom Storm
    I think that the mystery of consciousness should not be dismissed too quickly.Jack Cummins

    I agree. I usually take 20 minutes. :razz:
  • PoeticUniverse
    The clue is that information integrates on its own And deep down, we identify with / as the thing that integrates the information.Pop

    Consciousness is

    Intrinsic—my own, as independent;

    Compositional—structured with many phenomenological distinctions;

    Informational—particular and specific;

    Integrated/Whole—unified and irreducible;

    Exclusive—definite content, no more no less.

    Subjective Features:

    Referral—the ‘projection’ of neural states with no perceiving of neural firings/states.

    Mental Unity—experienced as a unified field, whereas sources are all over the brain.

    Qualia—the subjectively experienced felt qualities of sensory consciousness, the most perplexing gap between subjective experience and the brain.

    Continuous—seamless stitching of ongoing changing contents.

    Mental causation?—How can consciousness—an intangible, unobservable, and fully subjective entity—cause material neurons to direct behaviors that change the world?

    Physics describes but the extrinsic causes,
    While consciousness exists just for itself,
    As the intrinsic, compositional,
    Informational, whole, and exclusive—

    As the distinctions toward survival,
    Though causing nothing except in itself,
    As in ne’er doing but only as being,
    Leaving intelligence for the doing.

    The posterior cortex holds correlates,
    For this is the only brain region that
    Can’t be removed for one to still retain
    Consciousness, it having feedback in it;

    Thusly, it forms an irreducible Whole,
    And this Whole forms consciousness directly,
    A process fundamental in nature,
    Or’s the brain’s private symbolic language.

    The Whole can also be well spoken of
    To communicate with others, as well as
    Globally informing other brain states,
    So nonconscious parts can use what’s been made.
  • PoeticUniverse
    I think that the mystery of consciousness should not be dismissed too quickly.
    — Jack Cummins

    I agree. I usually take 20 minutes. :razz:
    Tom Storm

    Consciousness is that annoying time between naps.
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.