• Shawn
    12.6k
    “I want you to realize that when I speak of a fact I do not mean a particular
    existing thing, such as Socrates or the rain or the sun. Socrates himself does not
    render any statement true or false. What I call a fact is the sort of thing that
    is expressed by a whole sentence, not by a single name like ‘Socrates.’ . . .We
    express a fact, for example, when we say that a certain thing has a certain
    property, or that it has a certain relation to another thing; but the thing which
    has the property or the relation is not what I call a ‘fact.”’

    If the essence of the first proposition of the Tractatus is of relations between objects, further describable (which already is a contested issue) as facts, then what does Russell mean by these relations?
  • Wheatley
    2.3k
    “I want you to realize that when I speak of a fact I do not mean a particular
    existing thing, such as Socrates or the rain or the sun. Socrates himself does not
    render any statement true or false. What I call a fact is the sort of thing that
    is expressed by a whole sentence, not by a single name like ‘Socrates.’ . . .We
    express a fact, for example, when we say that a certain thing has a certain
    property, or that it has a certain relation to another thing; but the thing which
    has the property or the relation is not what I call a ‘fact.”’ Citation

    If the essence of the first proposition of the Tractatus is of relations between objects, further describable (which already is a contested issue) as facts, then what does Russell mean by these relations?
    Shawn
    B1: Who's said this?

    B2: Who's the author of the Tractatus?

    B3: Do you mean Bertrand Russel?
  • magritte
    553
    We
    express a fact, for example, when we say that a certain thing has a certain
    property, or that it has a certain relation to another thing
    Shawn

    Do you agree that facts are what we say about a certain property or a certain relation?
  • Banno
    23.1k
    Well, no.

    A fact is what we say, when what we say is true. If it ain't true, it ain't a fact.
  • magritte
    553
    So then by
    when I speak of a fact I do not mean a particular existing thingShawn
    W specifically means himself only by "I" because facts are truths?
  • Banno
    23.1k
    Lets first get clear that the long quote is from Russell's Logical Atomism and the aphorism is the first line of Wittgenstein's Tractatus.

    W specifically means himself only by "I" because facts are truths?magritte

    Presumably you meant Russell? He is simply setting out how he intends to use the word "fact".

    You don't think truths are somehow private, do you?
  • magritte
    553
    For the moment, your truths are my truths. I'm willing to go along with whatever might help me disentangle my confusion.

    He is simply setting out how he intends to use the word "fact".Banno

    Is he then replacing the usual real objects with whatever facts about those objects he postulates to be true or must others (everyone?) also agree that his facts are true? How far out on a limb must he climb?
  • Shawn
    12.6k
    Do you agree that facts are what we say about a certain property or a certain relation?magritte

    Yes, I think so.
  • Banno
    23.1k


    The Moon is not a fact.

    That the Moon orbits the Earth is a fact.

    That "The Moon orbits the Earth" is true is also a fact.

    Oddly, that the moon orbits the Earth, and that "The Moon orbits the Earth" is true, are each going to be true only if the other is also true. They are equivalent.

    Also note, that the Moon orbits the Earth is true regardless of what Russell or Magritte think or say.
  • Shawn
    12.6k


    Relations are usually causal and evident. The fact that the moon orbits the Earth is governed by the fact that the laws of physics determine it being so. Not, yet ready to talk about logical space, just yet.
  • magritte
    553


    Scientific facts would work because they are grounded in current physics. Is that enough?
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