• Apollodorus
    3.4k
    Al-Aksa Mosque, Temple Mount, and the restoration of peace to the Middle East

    The Arab-Jewish conflict goes back many centuries. Clashes between Jews and Philistines and/or other nations (Edomites, etc.) are mentioned in the Bible. However, a focal point of conflict in the current situation is the Temple Mount and al-Aksa Mosque.

    The al-Aksa Mosque is built on Temple Mount in Jerusalem which is said to have been the location of the Jewish Temple.

    Religion appears to be a major factor in the current tensions. In 1967 Israel’s socialist Prime Minister Levi Eshkol gave control of access to the Temple Mount to the Muslims. Currently Jews are only allowed to pray at the western wall of the Temple Mount compound while Muslims can use the whole compound as they please.

    Additionally, Israeli Arabs are backed by Turkey and Iran, who claim to be the leaders of the Muslim world and are the main powers hostile to Israel and involved in destabilizing the region.

    A philosophically justified solution may consider the following measures as preliminary steps toward the restoration of enduring peace, stability and prosperity in the region.

    1. Immediate removal of the mosque and all other Islamic structures from the Temple Mount to alternative locations and restoration of Israeli control of the area.

    2. Creation of a Palestinian State and separation of Jewish and Arab populations.

    3. Return of Constantinople (“Istanbul”) to Greece.

    4. Equitable division of Turkish territory among Turkey’s different ethnic groups such as Greeks, Kurds, Armenians and ethnic Turks.

    5. Creation of a Kurdish State comprising Kurdish-inhabited territories currently located in Turkey, Iran, Syria and Iraq.

    6. Establishment of an Eastern Mediterranean Union or Commonwealth of Nations consisting of territories formerly under the control of the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire) and return of some of the said territories to Greek control.

    Of course a movement would need to be started to promote the plan. Participants could be recruited from all the other movements and organizations that have failed and funding could be obtained from the UN and other intergovernmental organizations and NGOs.

    Edit: There can be no peace without justice. The Muslims have three or more holy sites. Jews only have one and even that is controlled by Muslims. This doesn't seem just. I think justice is central to true philosophy. Therefore true philosophers should support my proposal.
  • frank
    11.1k
    The Arab-Jewish conflict goes back many centuries. Clashes between Jews and Philistines are mentioned in the Bible.Apollodorus

    The Philistines were probably related to the Mycenaeans.
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k
    Of course a movement would need to be started to promote the plan. Participants could be recruited from all the other movements and organizations that have failed and funding could be obtained from the UN and other intergovernmental organizations and NGOs.
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k
    The Philistines were probably related to the Mycenaeans.frank

    Probably. But they've long been replaced with Arabs in the meantime.
  • frank
    11.1k
    Probably. But they've long been replaced with Arabs in the meantime.Apollodorus

    And Persians.
  • ssu
    6.3k
    And all of the Abrahamic religions ought to be against idolatry.

    Just make some dramatic landscaping and transport everything on the Temple Mount and the hill itself to the bottom of the Marianas Trench.

    A philosophically justified solution.
  • Banno
    18.6k
    This thread is satyrical, isn't it? It can't be serious.
  • Tom Storm
    5k
    There'a fine line between provocation and satire.
  • Banno
    18.6k
    There'a fine line between provocation and satire.Tom Storm

    No, there isn't. Satire is provocative.

    Is @Apollodorus attempting humour?
  • frank
    11.1k
    Just make some dramatic landscaping and transport everything on the Temple Mount and the hill itself to the bottom of the Marianas Trench.ssu

    You could sell it on eBay.
  • Tom Storm
    5k
    I'm so used to 'satire' being limp and real life being satirical that I can't tell any more.
  • Banno
    18.6k
    Hence my question - I'm just not sure. Returning Istanbul to Greece. Better give Virginia back to England, too. And New York back to the Wappinger. Canberra back to the Ngunnawal elders.
  • Tom Storm
    5k
    I was thinking along these lines earlier - it's an argument of infinite regress. If he were alive, George Carlin could perhaps do something with this.
  • thewonder
    1.4k

    I don't know. I think that it's superficially plausible. Aside from @Apollodorus's assumption that the removal of the third holiest site in Islam from Jerusalem could somehow ease religious tensions, were the United Nations to be capable of doing anything in these regards, that they and nongovernmental organizations should work together to bring peace to Western Asia does seem like a good idea.
  • NOS4A2
    6.2k


    This kind of meddling is little more than a racket at this point. It’s a hard no, for me, when that which is the cause of the problem presents itself as the solution.
  • 180 Proof
    9.8k
    If he were alive, George Carlin could perhaps do something with this.Tom Storm
    Hey, a fellow Bronx cat like old (OG) George, would tell it like it is:
    Listen, asshole, it's like it says on the sign – No returns, no redemptions, no renegotiations, no receiverships, especially with no fuckin' receipts. No do-overs, 'cause, y'know, this ain't a goddamn video game. Also, no buy-backs, no warrantees, no money back guarantees, no rebates, no trade-ins, no upgrades, and no we won't take that dump as collateral neither. Okay either. No give, no take, no care no more, motherfucker. Stop squatting and just abandon the shithole – though it would be really fuckin' nice if you left it in some state of repair vaguely resembling the pristine condition your cocksucking murdering thieving proselytizing enslaving ancestors found it in – when – they – stole – it – from – mine. Oldest goddamn story in the oldest goddamn book, ain't it? Anyway. Just leave, gents, on that Elon Musk rocket right up your tight, raw asses and fly this [BIRD] to the moon! No hard fuckin feelings, ok? :wink:
  • Bitter Crank
    11.1k
    Just make some dramatic landscaping and transport everything on the Temple Mount and the hill itself to the bottom of the Marianas Trench.ssu

    Your plan involves a lot of loading, unloading, shipping, and dumping debris into the Marianas Trench. Too much trouble. It would be easier to just nuke the Temple Mount, then everyone everywhere could share its alleged holiness. And while we're at it, might as well get rid of several other centers of superstition and nonsense. Everyone can make up their own lists--but let's keep to under 10 nukes in all.
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k
    I think that it's superficially plausible. Aside from @Apollodorus's assumption that the removal of the third holiest site in Islam from Jerusalem could somehow ease religious tensionsthewonder

    Nobody said anything about removing the site. I said relocate the mosque. This should be done with Muslim support. Islam is a religion of peace and I'm sure a compromise could be easily made.

    Plus, the Muslims have three or more holy sites. Jews only have one and even that is controlled by Muslims. This doesn't seem just. I think justice is central to true philosophy. Therefore true philosophers should support my proposal.
  • Echarmion
    2.2k
    Nobody said anything about removing the site. I said relocate the mosque. This should be done with Muslim support. Islam is a religion of peace and I'm sure a compromise could be easily made.Apollodorus

    Because the mosque just happens to be on temple mount. No religious significance whatsoever.

    Plus, the Muslims have three or more holy sites. Jews only have one and even that is controlled by Muslims. This doesn't seem just. I think justice is central to true philosophy. Therefore true philosophers should support my proposal.Apollodorus

    Is "true philosophy" the name of your stand-up-comedy routine?
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k
    Because the mosque just happens to be on temple mount. No religious significance whatsoever.Echarmion

    What you're saying it that Temple Mount has no religious significance to the Jews whatsoever and that Muslims can have a mosque or anything they like on Temple Mount but Jews can't have a temple on their own Temple Mount in their own country.

    Is that your argument?
  • Echarmion
    2.2k
    Is that your argument?Apollodorus

    No.
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k
    I'm just not sure. Returning Istanbul to Greece.Banno

    Constantinople was Greek for thousands of years. It had a large Greek population until recently and was only renamed "Istanbul" in 1930 under Ataturk's national-socialist regime. Territories occupied by the Nazis were returned to their original owners. It shouldn't be a problem.
  • Jack Cummins
    4.4k

    I am not convinced that your solution would really work to address the depths of the political conflict. I know that it may seem like it would address the matter symbolically, but it would probably create more political unrest than anything else, especially if it meant taking sides. If you really tried to implement it, even though I think you mean well, it could potentially start a world war, although I am sure that could happen anyway.
  • Echarmion
    2.2k
    Constantinople was Greek for thousands of years. It had a large Greek population until recently and was only renamed "Istanbul" in 1930 under Ataturk's national-socialist regime. Territories occupied by the Nazis were returned to their original owners. It shouldn't be a problem.Apollodorus

    If the greeks had wanted to keep it, they should have done a better job with their empire. Not the Turks fault they lost most of their empire to some arab nomads.
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k
    If you really tried to implement it, even though I think you mean well, it could potentially start a world war, although I am sure that could happen anyway.Jack Cummins

    Why should anyone "start a world war" if all parties come to an agreement through diplomatic and religious understanding?

    I think it's the other way round. World war is more likely if the region is not stabilized. Turkey and Iran have been threatening with war for years and they have been involved in military operations across the region already. Inaction on the part of the international community will only encourage them to become more aggressive.
  • Harry Hindu
    4.9k
    Religion appears to be a major factor in the current tensions.Apollodorus

    There can be no peace without justice.Apollodorus

    If religion is the major factor, then there can only be peace without religion. Religion, like politics, is just another way to divide us and see each as different, as more or less of a human being.

    The recent conflict started when Israelis tried to evict Palestinians from their homes, which the Arabs did to the Jews several decades ago just after Israel became a state. Your solutions are all about evicting people from where they live, or re-arranging borders, which just going to cause more problems.

    The only solutions are to wait until one side annihilates the other or we wait several generations until religion is abandonded and relegated to myth like all the other religions before it.
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k
    The only solutions are to wait until one side annihilates the other or we wait several generations until religion is abandonded and relegated to myth like all the other religions before it.Harry Hindu

    Religions may well disappear of their own accord some day. But in the meantime the road to peace seems to be to separate them and keep them apart. That was the solution with the partition of India and it worked quite well. So, separation seems to be a sound principle on which to build a practicable road to peace. The same principle is applied in marital conflict, boxing matches and military conflict.
  • Harry Hindu
    4.9k
    Religions may well disappear of their own accord some day. But in the meantime the road to peace seems to be to separate them and keep them apart. That was the solution with the partition of India and it worked quite well. So, separation seems to be a sound principle on which to build a practicable road to peace. The same principle is applied in marital conflict, boxing matches and military conflict.Apollodorus
    So who is the designated referee that will send in their own troops to evict people from their homes in an effort to make peace?

    What I find interesting is that there are populations that are willing to abandon their homes for economic hardship or being oppressed and migrate to another country, but when religion comes into play, people are willing to stay and continue to expose themselves to economic hardships and oppression. This is partly because practicing religion includes in part practicing being a victim.
  • James Riley
    2.9k
    Every swinging dick and tit should pack their trash and get the hell out. The whole Fertile Crescent. Take their stupid sheep, goats and other domestic animals with them. Start the re-wilding and get the place back in shape. Say 10,000 years, no people.

    They could go to Somalia, Afghanistan, or Texas.
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