• Ennui Elucidator
    455
    I posted their charter. Your move.
  • Seppo
    276
    but Israel will remain at eternal fault with no moral standing to question the resistance.Ennui Elucidator

    This is still just a silly strawman. Israel is at fault for human rights abuses (!!!) they have committed and continue to commit. Not for merely existing. If they, you know, stopped violating international law and murdering civilians, they wouldn't be criticized for doing such things- so much for being "eternally at fault".

    Like, I understand that you wish you were arguing against fanatical anti-Semites opposed to the very existence of the state of Israel, but you're not, and so you should probably adjust your arguments and rhetorical strategy accordingly. Or you can continue to post this sort of nonsense, and continue to fail to meaningfully contribute to this discussion.
  • Ennui Elucidator
    455


    And in case you need some direction, rumour has it that this is something of signifigance in Palestinian circles:


    Chapter One
    Principles… Goals…. Methods
    The Movement's Essential Principles
    Article (1) Palestine is part of the Arab World, and the Palestinian people are part of the Arab Nation, and their struggle is part of its struggle.

    Article (2) The Palestinian people have an independent identity. They are the sole authority that decides their own destiny, and they have complete sovereignty on all their lands.

    Article (3) The Palestinian Revolution plays a leading role in liberating Palestine .

    Article (4) The Palestinian struggle is part and parcel of the world-wide struggle against Zionism, colonialism and international imperialism.

    Article (5) Liberating Palestine is a national obligation which necessities the materialistic and human support of the Arab Nation.

    Article (6) UN projects, accords and reso, or those of any individual cowhich undermine the Palestinian people's right in their homeland are illegal and rejected.

    Article (7) The Zionist Movement is racial, colonial and aggressive in ideology, goals, organisation and method.

    Article (8) The Israeli existence in Palestine is a Zionist invasion with a colonial expansive base, and it is a natural ally to colonialism and international imperialism.

    Article (9) Liberating Palestine and protecting its holy places is an Arab, religious and human obligation.

    Article (10) Palestinian National Liberation Movement, “FATEH”, is an independent national revolutionary movement representing the revolutionary vanguard of the Palestinian people.

    Article (11) The crowds which participate in the revolution and liberation are the proprietors of the Palestinian land.

    Goals
    Article (12) Complete liberation of Palestine , and eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence.

    Article (13) Establishing an independent democratic state with complete sovereignty on all Palestinian lands, and Jerusalem is its capital city, and protecting the citizens' legal and equal rights without any racial or religious discrimination.

    Article (14) Setting up a progressive society that warrants people's rights and their public freedom.

    Article (15) Active participation in achieving the Arab Nation's goals in liberation and building an independent, progressive and united Arab society.

    Article (16) Backing up all oppressed people in their struggle for liberation and self determination in order to build a just, international peace.
    — “Totally non-apartheid people”
  • Ennui Elucidator
    455
    Like, I understand that you wish you were arguing against fanatical anti-Semites opposed to the very existence of the state of Israel, but you're not, and so you should probably adjust your arguments and rhetorical strategy accordingly. Or you can continue to post this sort of nonsense, and continue to fail to meaningfully contribute to this discussion.Seppo

    Seppo, grow up. The Palestinians who 180 wants to free can speak and have spoken for themselves in this regard. Go read what they have said. Hamas and Fatah. They aren’t hard to find. They are the de facto leadership of the Palestinians along with the “Palestinian Liberation Organization.”
  • Seppo
    276
    Seppo, grow upEnnui Elucidator

    :roll: If you prefer to argue with strawmen rather than the people actually participating in the discussion, why are you wasting everyone's time- surely you don't need our help with such an exercise?
  • Seppo
    276
    That the Palestinians don’t intend to create an apartheid state on whatever land they govern and/or an Islamic state.Ennui Elucidator

    Lol, Jesus tapdancing Christ. :grimace:

    "Apatheid is necessary because if we didn't do it to them, they would do it to us"
  • 180 Proof
    8.4k
    The Oslo Accords, signed by both Arafat & Rabin, and that the Israelis (especially under Bibi) continue to violate, had decades ago supplanted the PLO "charter" with the PNA. You're trafficking in Kahanist (e.g.Otzma Yehudit) "talking points" and not evidence, Ennui. It's continued Israeli occupation via ethnic cleansing and apartheid that feeds and inflames (most) Palestinian militancy in the OT, WB & Gaza – as Barak, Olmert & Sharon had acknowledged during their respective premiereships,
  • Ennui Elucidator
    455
    except the Palestinians disavowed the Oslo accords. Read what they have said since Oslo and in direct response to it. The PLO has not adopted what Arafat promised to put up for consideration. The evidence is there for you to look at. Find an official policy statement of Hamas that recognizes Israel’s right to exist and says that they don’t intend to establish a Zionist free state in 100% of the land. Go ahead and leave the pipe dream 90s and catch-up to at least 2005.
  • Streetlight
    8.8k
    Everytime this moron posts something, just remind him that he is reponding to the fact that Israel is committing crimes against humanity. That's the topic. The hasbara talking point is to change the topic. Don't let him.

    So we're talking about Israeli murder. Not the Oslo accords. We're talking about Israeli land grabs, not some charter. Don't let this shithead abstract into documents. Destoryed olive groves. Kidnapped children. Torn roads.
  • Ennui Elucidator
    455
    What I am responding to is what is likely to happen in the absence of Israeli apartheid. It isn’t not apartheid. It is just not Jewish apartheid. Your level of thinking is this….

    Step 1) end Israeli apartheid…
    Step 2) …. We are only discussing step one!!!!
    Step 3) …. No no no!!!! Just step one!!!
    Step 4) Peace on earth and good will towards man.

    I envy your critical reasoning skills.
  • Streetlight
    8.8k
    No, you're just an anti-semite who equates Israel's existence with "necessary" mass suffering. Once you break that fake link, all of what you say is trash.

    Israeli apartheid must end, and all the rest is trash apologetics. I realize ending apartheid is a joke for you, but then, so are you.
  • Ennui Elucidator
    455


    Again, your reading needs work. No one gives a shit if they do it to the Jews (anti-Semitism), they only care if apartheid ends (by whomever on whomever). Apartheid is bad - moral acid test.

    My response is not, “But what about the Jews?!” (Again, the audience doesn’t care about the Jews), it is “But when Israeli apartheid is gone, it will be replaced by Palestinian apartheid. The solution to apartheid is not different apartheid. Until you offer a solution in which apartheid ends in Palestine/Israel entirely, you aren’t actually trying to end apartheid.”

    180, who to his minimal credit, at least gestures in the direction of how maybe the Palestinians don’t actually mean that they want to create an apartheid state because someone made some promise that has never been honored. For his part that is the best he can do - suggest that it isn’t necessarily apartheid in Free Palestine. He has no real evidence for that, but at least he is willing to cherry pick.

    As I said in my very first response to 180, this conversation is not about the Jews because the Jews don’t matter in the popular conversation about Free Palestine. All that matters is that the Palestinians suffer. There can be no excuse for it and no justification. Anyone who causes it is in the wrong no questions asked. The wrongness must stop because the Palestinians. The conversation is wholly self aware that it is focused on the victim and stopping the behavior of the wrongdoer.
  • Ennui Elucidator
    455
    oh right. Because anti-Zionism is anti-semitism. You make that up on your own or have to consult with Likud?
  • Streetlight
    8.8k
    Oh what's wrong? Don't like gratuitous accusations of anti-seministm? Given that you're a supporter of Israeli apartheid who argues for it's necessity, it's a rather natural inference you think the worst of the state, essentializing Israeli-meted suffering as part of the DNA of its existence. Or maybe you'd like to make another joke about apartheid and how ending it is funny to you.
  • _db
    3.5k
    “But when Israeli apartheid is gone, it will be replaced by Palestinian apartheid. The solution to apartheid is not different apartheid. Until you offer a solution in which apartheid ends in Palestine/Israel entirely, you aren’t actually trying to end apartheid.”Ennui Elucidator

    Ending a moral evil that is happening right now is obviously more important than preventing a moral evil that might happen in the future. You're basically just saying that there's no point in fighting evil if it's just going to come back in a different way.

    If the Israeli apartheid ends and is replaced by a Palestinian apartheid, then the Palestinian apartheid will then have to end. But the current crisis is the Israeli apartheid, the one that is actually happening, the real one.
  • Ennui Elucidator
    455
    I don’t care about your accusations; I’m gesturing towards the history of Zionism and how everyone had it stuffed down their throats that being anti-Zionist was being anti-Semitic. Zionism is inherently problematic. I’m neither the first nor last to say that. The difference when I speak is that I am at least considering the Jews and their interests when deciding whom, if anyone, has any claim to my support. When you speak, there is not even a moment where you care about them. They aren’t even worthy of consideration and they don’t even get to speak until you give them permission. That you are so unreflected is unsurprising, but one day perhaps you’ll catch up.
  • Streetlight
    8.8k
    Lol, yeah, you speak for Jews: they necessarily need to kidnap, destroy, torture, and extra-judicially kill. Perhaps you'd like to quote the Protocols in support of Israel next. A bit of Mein Kampf after, just to round it out?
  • Ennui Elucidator
    455
    the Israeli apartheid ends and is replaced by a Palestinian apartheid, then the Palestinian apartheid will then have to end. But the current crisis is the Israeli apartheid, the one that is actually happening._db

    A perfectly reasonable response, obvious though it may be. It is basically the only defense I know of regarding the end-apartheid folk that doesn’t make them sound like bigots, just naive. If, on the fair weighing of the presently available evidence, you conclude that Palestinian apartheid is mere conjecture and not a likelihood, I might disagree with you, but at least I’d respect the position if well reasoned. People of good judgment can differ, after all.

    Frankly, I am highly sympathetic to the “justice delayed is justice denied” line of thought. When it comes to larger group interests, however, I am not entirely convinced that reflexive “do the right thing in front of you and worry about the rest later” is the best choice. At some point long term strategic thinking is required and public policy seems like the place to negotiate present injustice against the value of future benefits.
  • Streetlight
    8.8k
    "If you want to end apartheid you are a bigot"

    loooooool
  • Ennui Elucidator
    455
    Lol, yeah, you speak for Jews: they necessarily need to kidnap, destroy, torture, and extra-judicially kill. Perhaps you'd like to quote the Protocols in support of Israel next. A bit of Mein Kampf after, just to round it out?StreetlightX

    No, the Zionists have to engage in apartheid to create a JEWISH state. It sort of goes with the name. Jews, however, don’t have to be Zionists. And Jews can recognize when other Jews are advocating bad policy, even if seemingly well meaning. Seems you can’t keep your objects of scorn straight.
  • Streetlight
    8.8k
    Oh cool, so let's end apartheid now then. Nice to be in agreement.
  • Ennui Elucidator
    455
    looooooolStreetlightX

    Mocking what you don’t understand isn’t a good look. Wanting to end apartheid because you read it in a fortune cookie makes you poorly reasoned, but not a bigot. Wanting to end apartheid perpetrated by the Jews, not caring about why they might be doing it and whether it is acceptable in connection with other ethical imperatives, and managing to give not a moment’s thought about whether the people living under apartheid will stop living under apartheid when the Jews stop makes you anti-Semetic.

    Plenty of nice people are anti-Semites and have made great contributions to the world. Don’t take it so hard. Hell, lots of those nice anti-Semites don’t even think of themselves as being anti-Semites: they have lots of Jewish friends, have gone to a shiva or two, and can tell a funny incrowd Jewish joke. A lack of bad intent doesn’t make you not a racist.
  • Streetlight
    8.8k
    Here I was wanting to end apartheid because it is an unmitigated evil.

    But you can continue making excuses for it if you like.

    I wonder if people thought so hard about Nazi feelings when they argued against throwing Jews in concentration camps. The poor, poor Nazis and their 'interests'.
  • Ennui Elucidator
    455
    Here I was wanting to end apartheid because it is an unmitigated evil.StreetlightX

    No, here you were wanting to end Jewish apartheid because you fetishize Jews.
  • Streetlight
    8.8k
    Yes that must be it, very good.

    Anyway, Israel should probably stop kidnapping children and beating random old men on the street to death for funsies.
  • Streetlight
    8.8k
    Funny that all those who shed tears over Ukraine have nothing to say about Israel beating up people in their places of worship on holy days. Just radio silence about Israel being a brutal, racist, settler-colonial state engaging in wanton, everyday abuse.
  • ssu
    5.8k

    Yes. 17 or 20 people were hurt in the clashes with the police. Yet I think it's better to look at this from a larger context:

    The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) has been tracking deaths in the conflict since 2008 and its data shows that 5,600 Palestinians died up to 2020 while 115,000 were injured. 250 Israelis died during the same period while 5,600 were injured.

    Of course, then on the other hand the mayor of Mariupol estimates that just in his city 21 000 have been killed since the war started. Some 50 days ago.

    Yet human suffering isn't a numbers game and of course the attention now (for some reason) is in Ukraine. But I'm not so sure it is because people everybody accepts Israel's policies.

    As I've said in this thread in the start, Israel has opted for perpetual war with the Palestinians. The founders of Israel thought that in some time peace should be made with the Palestinians. Present Israel doesn't think so. It's happy with the prevailing Apartheid system and low-intensity war that only sporadically intensifies.

    And just to make it clear, Israel's actions and policies are utterly wrong in my opinion.
  • Isaac
    7k


    You see, your average Palestinian just lacks the 'pluck' of your average Ukrainian. That's what it mainly comes down to.

    The fact that the world's largest military and economic power are pro-Ukrainian and anti-Palestinian is entirely irrelevant and it's just anti-american dogmatism to even mention it.
  • Streetlight
    8.8k
    Yes. 17 or 20 people were hurt in the clashes with the police.ssu

    They were not 'clashes with police'. They were dehumanizing raids conducted by a violent, punishing state, for no other reason than repression and humiliation.

    now for some reason is in Ukraine.ssu

    Yeah wonder what they could be. 'For some reason'. Not because the US and the West basically give a free pass to Israeli apartheid while hypocritically heaping focus on issues which are in their material interest.
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