So then I can use that argument for why Israel kept voting in right wing parties. — schopenhauer1

One group was initially wronged and wronged more severely over a period of time by another group. If the first group starts attacking the second, maybe the initial wrong-doers should try to stop it instead of escalating?

Did Israel not occupy Gaza and treat the Palestinians like shit for decades? — ToothyMaw

So I’ll repeat for the apparently less informed how it got this way once again:

If people are more informed on the history, they couldn't just use the latest headline as their newest political cudgel. That would mean a nuanced understanding on the fact that it was a series of wars started by neighboring Arab states (Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, etc. etc.), who annexed the West Bank and Gaza and never did anything themselves to make these territories into their own self-determining state,.

Then when the Arab countries like Jordan and Egypt and the rest stopped attacking, and it became only Palestinians left with Israelis to make a deal, the Palestinian side, when given a chance to make a state, never took any deals. But yes, for those who do understand some of the history, the terms of these deals will be said by them, as "unreasonable" for Palestinians and thus implies it seems "reasonable" for the asymmetrical warfare "intafadas" that ensued of of suicide bombings, and terrorist rampages and kidnappings into Israel by Palestinians jihadists and terrorists. — schopenhauer1

If you are saying that the Palestinians wanted a seemingly endless conflict that would eventually conclude with their near destruction, you are patently wrong. — ToothyMaw

No they want Israel’s destruction and to kill as many Israelis as they can get away with, as well as project their “power” by holding hostages as Israel has in the past given up immense numbers of prisoners for only one person as they tend to value their citizens. Hamas uses useful idiots and the media cycle to stoke outage. It’s all asymmetrical tactics. It’s the long game. They bit off more than they were predicting this time. Most likely their neighbors were step in and make it a regional war but that didn’t happen either. Their only recourse is the civilian deaths lead to moral outrage.

Furthermore, Netanyahu actually supported Hamas, so there's that. — ToothyMaw

I’m no supporter of Netanyahu but, Israel at first might have thought that Hamas could be worked with once they got power. That lasted a second though. Netanyahu did benefit from thinking he could ignore the existential issue and Hamas was convenient for that no doubt.

But clearly the Palestinians have some sort of relationship with Hamas that is somewhat neutral, and I can only explain that as a function of the Palestinians wanting men to fight on their behalf. — ToothyMaw

Palestinians are both supporters and captive of Hamas depending. If there were elections in the West Bank, 75% would vote them on.

One group was initially wronged and wronged more severely over a period of time by another group. If the first group starts attacking the second, maybe the initial wrong-doers should try to stop it instead of escalating? — ToothyMaw

Now this is just historically false. Look back at the history I reiterated for a second time.

No, what I was referencing was your misuse of language in order to compare the "genocide" and "concentration camps" of Nazi Germany to the current day conflict in Israel as if they're literally the same. I indicated it was unnecessary that I actually show pictures of those housed in those death camps to prove my obvious point and that it would be disrespectful to use those images just to state the obvious. You made an offensive comment suggesting I didn't actually care about those who suffered in the death camps and ridiculed my suggestion that I did.

I didn't respond in kind, but attempted to diffuse your inappropriate comment only for you not to allow that we just move on from there, now presenting with this claim that I'm a racist.

Anyway, all that can be said has been said on this, no opinions are likely to change, and so now all that is left is snark and insult. To the extent you believe your opponents are in bad faith, deluded, racist, or whatever other subhuman trait you attribute to them, you are very wrong.

No, what I was referencing was your misuse of language in order to compare the "genocide" and "concentration camps" of Nazi Germany to the current day conflict in Israel as if they're literally the same. — Hanover

I can’t speak for Benkei, but I myself do not consider them the same as Nazis or the Holocaust. They are not the same.

As for the appropriateness of “concentration camp,” which many people immediately associate with Nazi concentration camps, I think the following is enlightening:

Currently, he said, there are 11 million people in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza Strip, and that number will increase to 36 million in 50 years. The area between Beer Sheva and the northern tip of Israel (including the West Bank and Gaza) has the highest population density in the world. Gaza alone, he said, is already “a huge concentration camp” with 1.3 million Palestinians. Moreover, the land is surrounded on three sides by deserts. Palestinians need more land and Israel can ill-afford to cede it. The solution, he argued, lies in the Sinai desert.

https://mondoweiss.net/2023/11/influential-israeli-national-security-leader-makes-the-case-for-genocide-in-gaza/

This statement was made by Giora Eiland, former head of the National Security Council. He’s no Palestinian sympathizer, either. Is his description wrong?

I guess the Armenians aren't out here flaming down people with the Anti-Armenian League propaganda.

They have been actually, people just pay less attention, but it still goes on. The Armenian diaspora is one of the most effective diaspora groups in terms of lobbying the West. This is how they are able to get disproportionate attention for a country of marginal economic and strategic relevance, and why they have very quickly been able to get Western support against the Azerbaijan despite having alienated the West by being so closely aligned to Russia for so long.

This actually flies in the face of real politick, considering the considerable issues Iran has been having with internal security crises, especially those related to its large minority populations, largely Kurds and Azeris. You could see an argument for US grand strategy doing more to court the Azeris the way they do the Kurds, but they don't do this in part because of the power of the Armenian lobby.

Armenia was also instrumental in throwing up some major road blocks to Turkey's entry into the EU, re demands for recognizing the genocide and paying reparations (which only accomplished having Turkey point a finger at the Greeks). Granted, these were in part more an excuse for people who already didn't want Turkey in the union.

I only point this out because there is this tendency to see Israel has somehow unique in having a powerful diaspora lobby. It isn't, and peoples with significant diasporas often have powerful lobbies in areas in which they've concentrated. And of course, you can have influence without a large diaspora. I would say the Saudis tend to have more influence in the US than Israel for example (or maybe Turkey via cash payments to the NSA, or gold coins given to a certain NJ senator, lol).

People tend to pay more attention to Israel's efforts, due to both antisemitic tropes, the religious salience of the "Holy Land," and the fact that Palestine also has a large diaspora movement. This attention actually makes their efforts less successful IMO. Shining light on foreign influence isn't normally helpful.

Sounds like a load of bullshit to where you can't admit a double standard due to your fear of Jewish supremacy labeling you a certain way. — Vaskane

Sounds like psychobabble and ad homs in place of any interesting insight. I am quite content to be labelled by people with agendas on either side, and my anonymous internet bravery is positively troll-worthy. :grin:

you Hamas symps
— Merkwurdichliebe
Cite where I "sympathize with Hamas" or retract your slander. — 180 Proof

Banned ... another "Israeli war crimes" apologist.

All that just underlines is that you're still living in 1945. My use is consistent with actual use, srebrenica, Uighur etc. are examples of genocide too. 75 years of occupation with the intent to destroy the viability of an independent state through mass displacement, continued colonialism and war crimes is genocide of the original local population. Your continued inane ramblings about language are irrelevant. You're defending war crimes using fascist and ultranationalist talking points and too stuck in your Jewish circle jerk to be ashamed of it.

Also: I never called it a concentration camp but nice to know you feel obligated to defend that crime by pointing out it isn't as bad as an actual one.

My point remains that the usage of the terms "concentration camp" and "genocide" has been and continues to be used to create a moral equivalency argument between Israel and Nazi Germany. Acting as if those terms are just generic terms that can be used in all sorts of contexts of varying degrees is not taken seriously by anyone recognizing the context of upon which Israel was given statehood or by who resides in that land. — Hanover

As there is a legal definition for Genocide, do note that it isn't similar to what the Third Reich perpetrated and what we know as the Holocaust. For example, the genocide in Ruanda isn't similar to the Holocaust, especially by scope, but it is still a genocide. Many people think that genocide and Holocaust are synonyms, they aren't. Also, concentration camps have been used by quite many countries, which do not have had the idea of extermination everybody.

The unfortunate thing is that @Benkei's argument that a genocide is happening in Gaza is becoming more credible as the talk continues of "voluntary" movement of Palestinians from Gaza and when Gaza is reduced to rubble with not much ability to sustain over 2 million people to live there. It simply cannot be refuted that there isn't a lot of genocidal discourse in Israel starting with the prime minister talking about Amalek and other high ranking politicians referring to human animal, Gaza as evil and the calls for "voluntary" removal of Palestinians to the Sinai desert (not the Negev desert in Israel), or for Nakba 2. I find it very worrisome that the way that the IDF is now fighting Hamas starts to be very different from the way the US fought Iraqi insurgents, and this makes a lot more credible the accusations of genocide.

I would suggest to watch (or listen) to the following interview Raz Segal, a Professor in the Study of Modern Genocide at Stockton University, which makes quite well the argument for a genocide happening in Gaza.



Some points from the interview (if you won't bother to watch it):

- Hamas has many times talked about destroying Israel, so yes, it has the intent, but not the capability. Here what really matters is not only the intent, but also the capability to perform such things. (That Hamas has broken human rights and perpetrated war crimes is obvious.)
- The whole idea of moving people from the Gaza into the Sinai desert comes very close to examples like the Armenian genocide.
- Historically it has been the case that the perpetrators of a genocide have thought to be acting in self defence: From the Ottomans to Nazi Germany.

And if you think this is totally unimportant / nonsensical anti-semitic arguments of "the left", please do observe that just South Africa took Israel to the International Court of Justice for being " in breach of its obligations under the 1948 Genocide Convention in its crackdown against the Palestinian group Hamas in Gaza".

29 December 2023

INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE

Press Release

Unofficial

No. 2023/77

THE HAGUE, 29 December 2023. South Africa today filed an application instituting proceedings against Israel before the International Court of Justice (ICJ), the principal judicial organ of the United Nations, concerning alleged violations by Israel of its obligations under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (the “Genocide Convention”) in relation to Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.

According to the Application, “acts and omissions by Israel . . . are genocidal in character, as they are committed with the requisite specific intent . . . to destroy Palestinians in Gaza as a part of the broader Palestinian national, racial and ethnical group” and that “the conduct of Israel — through its State organs, State agents, and other persons and entities acting on its instructions or under its direction, control or influence — in relation to Palestinians in Gaza, is in violation of its obligations under the Genocide Convention”.

The Applicant further states that “Israel, since 7 October 2023 in particular, has failed to prevent genocide and has failed to prosecute the direct and public incitement to genocide” and that “Israel has engaged in, is engaging in and risks further engaging in genocidal acts against the Palestinian people in Gaza”.

South Africa seeks to found the Court’s jurisdiction on Article 36, paragraph 1, of the Statute of the Court and on Article IX of the Genocide Convention, to which both South Africa and Israel are parties.

The Application also contains a Request for the indication of provisional measures, pursuant to Article 41 of the Statute of the Court and Articles 73, 74 and 75 of the Rules of Court. The Applicant requests the Court to indicate provisional measures in order to “protect against further, severe and irreparable harm to the rights of the Palestinian people under the Genocide Convention” and “to ensure Israel’s compliance with its obligations under the Genocide Convention not to engage in genocide, and to prevent and to punish genocide”.

See United Nations page

So it's not just some crackpots here in PF, it's also some nations too. And not only Arab/Muslim countries. Hence we are really quickly moving from the initial responses from October 7 to something else (as happened in the Global War on Terror) thanks to the idiot zealots and those nurturing the feelings for revenge.

And (if you're still reading), I will repeat that this is extremely unfortunate. If this is dragged to be some kind of "culture war" issue or then being critical of Israel's actions is deemed anti-semitic, then at some point people will start to fall into saying that "Very well then, if opposing this is anti-semitic, count me being one then!". And that's not a good thing.

So I’ll repeat for the apparently less informed how it got this way once again:

If people are more informed on the history, they couldn't just use the latest headline as their newest political cudgel. That would mean a nuanced understanding on the fact that it was a series of wars started by neighboring Arab states (Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, etc. etc.), who annexed the West Bank and Gaza and never did anything themselves to make these territories into their own self-determining state,.

Then when the Arab countries like Jordan and Egypt and the rest stopped attacking, and it became only Palestinians left with Israelis to make a deal, the Palestinian side, when given a chance to make a state, never took any deals. But yes, for those who do understand some of the history, the terms of these deals will be said by them, as "unreasonable" for Palestinians and thus implies it seems "reasonable" for the asymmetrical warfare "intafadas" that ensued of of suicide bombings, and terrorist rampages and kidnappings into Israel by Palestinians jihadists and terrorists. — schopenhauer1

Okay, you are referencing the Arab-Israeli War. Just because Egypt and Jordan didn't allow the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip or the West Bank to form their own self-determining states doesn't mean that Israel shouldn't.

After the Six Day War and Resolution 242, Israel was supposed to withdraw from the Gaza Strip and West Bank, but they didn't. Thus began an unjust occupation. The first Intifada in 1987 was the result of increasing settlements and the ongoing repression of Palestinians by security forces, not Palestinian bloodlust. Many Palestinian protests were nonviolent, even if some escalated.

Then when the Arab countries like Jordan and Egypt and the rest stopped attacking, and it became only Palestinians left with Israelis to make a deal, the Palestinian side, when given a chance to make a state, never took any deals. — schopenhauer1

What about all of the attempts to implement a two-state solution Palestinians would find favorable in the UN that have been vetoed by Israel and the United States? Did that just not happen?

And there's nothing foreign about Muslim extremism.

For the secular western mind - very foreign. Islam is more eschatological than Judaism. Eschatology is featured extensively in the Quran and the Hadiths unlike the Hebrew bible. Christ was heavily eschatological but that faded over time with Christianity.

I think every insurgency fought against a foreign occupation can be justified. That doesn't mean the insurgents are the 'good guys', but a foreign occupier has no right to be there in the first place and are by definition in the wrong. — Tzeentch

Do you support resistance "by any means necessary" i.e. the complete dismissal of any moral notions?

In any case, I agree that the oppressed is justified in fighting back (but certainly within limits!). The foreign occupier has no right to the land.

So I guess we should send the Palestinians back to Saudi Arabia or whichever surrounding Arabic nation they came from. The hardline Islamic rule of Hamas and the main religion of the Palestinians doesn't arrive in the region until the 7th century. Jews were there over a millennium earlier.

So I guess we should send the Palestinians back to Saudi Arabia or whichever surrounding Arabic nation they came from. — BitconnectCarlos

Really? :brow:

I never called it [Gaza] a concentration camp but nice to know you [@schopenhauer1] feel obligated to defend that crime by pointing out it isn't as bad as an actual one. — Benkei

:up:

For the secular western mind - very foreign. Islam is more eschatological than Judaism. Eschatology is featured extensively in the Quran and the Hadiths unlike the Hebrew bible. Christ was heavily eschatological but that faded over time with Christianity. — BitconnectCarlos

Christian and Muslim eschatology both come from Jewish version. Apocalypticism exists in all three religions to this day, with Orthodox Jews manifesting it.

I'm just giving you a heads up here: you've expressed quite a few false opinions up to this point. I think you might be interested in looking into the history of the Abrahamic religions further. I think if you asked in the shoutbox, you'd get some good suggestions as to where to start.

Islam is more eschatological than Judaism. Do you agree or disagree?

Where is my error? I contend 1) that Islam, as reflected in the Quran and Hadiths, is more eschatological than Judaism and that 2) Arab Muslims have engaged in vast colonization. Both seem right to me.

I'd be happy to take up a debate on either subject.

Where is my error? I contend 1) that Islam, as reflected in the Quran and Hadiths, is more eschatological than Judaism and that 2) Arab Muslims have engaged in vast colonization. Both seem right to me. — BitconnectCarlos

Both are wrong. Both are issues that could easily be settled by referencing religion scholars and historians. I guess I don't understand why you need to debate it with someone rather than just look it up. I worked the last three days and I need to clean my house up. Can you just go to the local university library and get some books?

No, I need to go to synagogue today where I will surely hear my rabbi lecture about how to get to heaven and attain my 72 virgins. You know, because, the Hebrew Bible is just full of eschatology and certain knowledge of the afterlife. :roll: /s

No, I need to go to synagogue today where I will surely hear my rabbi lecture about how to get to heaven and attain my 72 virgins. You know, because, the Hebrew Bible is just full of eschatology and certain knowledge of the afterlife. :roll: /s — BitconnectCarlos

Jewish eschatology pervades the Talmud. Do you even know what that is? :eyes:

It's present but I wouldn't say that it pervades. We're told not to place our focus on it (Pirkei Avot 1:3).

And of course there's a difference between conversations among ancient rabbis versus what is actually used for instruction to a congregation.

We're told not to place our focus on it — BitconnectCarlos

That's good, because Jewish apocalypticism is basically about a deep, raging hatred of Gentiles. It's the kind of hatred that twists the soul. Rabbis would debate how long a Gentile needs to be tortured in Hades in order to make the universe right, while Jews sit at God's right hand in heaven and look down on the screaming. If you didn't know about this, I would strongly suggest you get a textbook on the Talmud to give you a better understanding of the history of your religion.

The point is, there are still Jewish apocalypticists: they're Orthodox Jews. In the same way, Islam and Christianity both have populations of believers who are waiting on the end of the world (Jews call it the World to Come) and their place in heaven.

For a long time, the Rabbis only believed Gentiles are tortured in Hades. They eventually decided it might be possible for a Jew to receive that kind of judgement. That was the beginning of a little healing. Oppression is a monster-maker. Being full of rage is a natural part of the process. Keep that in mind when you're trying to understand Hamas.

And of course there's a difference between conversations among ancient rabbis versus what is actually used for instruction to a congregation. — BitconnectCarlos

Oh good. Did you know the same thing is true of Muslims?

You have a habit of generalizing. The Talmud is a dense complicated text that takes years of study (7 years being the rule of thumb) to gain proficiency with it. I am not a Talmudic expert, neither are you - we are both out of our depths here but the Talmud says that the righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come. Rabbis will discuss every topic under the sun, just as Christian and Muslim religious authorities have debated similarly whether followers of other religions end up in hell. I see no reason for particular vitriol against the Jews. Nor is the Talmud the end of Jewish tradition.

You've shifted the emphasis to the Talmud because you know the Torah is not eschatological (in contrast to the Quran, which is claimed to be pure revelation from God and goes into deep detail about the afterlife and punishment.)

Orthodox Jews may believe in a world to come, but they are not "apocalyptists" -- there is no fast track to Heaven like a shahid in Islam. It also seems heaven in Islam is described carnally. The Orthodox Jew is focused on daily piousness, not "death for the sake of God" as it's highest aim as stated in the Hamas charter. Orthodox Judaism is not a death cult like Hamas or fundamentalist Islam.

Oppression is a monster-maker. Being full of rage is a natural part of the process. Keep that in mind when you're trying to understand Hamas. — frank

Yet even Jews in actual concentration camps (Auschwitz, not Gaza) didn't end up mass raping German women or committing atrocities because of their "rage." Murder is condemned in all religions and the Hamas murderer-rapists will be accountable to God. Hamas does it from hatred, sadism. They are bred to be sociopaths in a culture which glorifies death and revenge. The Palestinians deserve better.

ou've shifted the emphasis to the Talmud because you know the Torah is not eschatological (in contrast to the Quran, which is claimed to be pure revelation from God and goes into deep detail about the afterlife and punishment.) — BitconnectCarlos

The way Jews absorbed Greek and Persian eschatology was by reading it into the Torah. The idea is that the OT is in code. We discover God's message to us by unravelling the numbers and words. The one book that was intended to be eschatological is Daniel.

Orthodox Jews may believe in a world to come, but they are not "apocalyptists" — BitconnectCarlos

Do you know what's meant by Messiah? :eyes:

Orthodox Judaism is not a death cult like Hamas or fundamentalist Islam. — BitconnectCarlos

Yea, that's probably true. Christianity is the king of all death cults, though. Nobody does dark and gruesome like Christians.

Murder is condemned in all religions and the Hamas murderer-rapists will be accountable to God. Hamas does it from hatred, sadism. They are bred to be sociopaths in a culture which glorifies death and revenge. The Palestinians deserve better. — BitconnectCarlos

Well at least you've narrowed your condemnation from all Muslims down to Hamas. We're making progress. :up:

That there is a hell, or hades--a gruesome realm opposite a heaven--where anybody is tortured is enough to turn one off on all three Abrahamic religions. That a glorious heaven awaits those who suffer here is anodyne, but is likewise a turnoff. Suffering here is a dead certainty; a fluffy, cotton candy heaven, not so much,

A plague on all their houses? Well, plagues are pretty unpleasant, so maybe something else. How about a wave of enlightened secularism? More than a wave, a tsunami.

Pretty much everyone who has taken a strong religious stand in the Middle East from the getgo has been a big part of the problem. That is not to say that religious partisans haven't royally fucked things up elsewhere on the planet.

How about a wave of enlightened secularism? More than a wave, a tsunami. — BC

I think those features of Abrahamic religions were stress responses. Secularism has enjoyed a happy period where stresses have been put at arms length in various ways. If those stresses come back, the same kind of weird images will start growing out of the crevices of secularism like lichens out of a rock.

You didn't address this:

"Yet even Jews in actual concentration camps (Auschwitz, not Gaza) didn't end up mass raping German women or committing atrocities because of their "rage." Murder is condemned in all religions and the Hamas murderer-rapists will be accountable to God. Hamas does it from hatred, sadism. They are bred to be sociopaths in a culture which glorifies death and revenge. The Palestinians deserve better."

Muslim terrorists often strap on suicide vests and blow themselves up, taking as many civilians as they can with them. Orthodox Jews don't. Why is that?

Muslim terrorists often strap on suicide vests and blow themselves up, taking as many civilians as they can with them. Orthodox Jews don't. Why is that? — RogueAI

I don't understand the point of this question. Could you spell it out?

I don't understand the point of this question. Could you spell it out? — frank

Why do Muslim terrorists rape women to death? Put on suicide vests and blow innocent people up? Fly planes into civilian buildings? Behead people and burn them alive, like ISIS? Why don't we see similar behavior from Jews? Why didn't the Jews in Europe do such things in response to the Holocaust?

What is your answer to this question?

Religious extremism. What is yours?