• Athena
    1.3k
    think that I would rather come back in another human body, but if people really believe in reincarnation they ought to think about working to ensure that humanity survives, or else they won't be able to come back at all, at least in this cycle of existence.Jack Cummins

    Exactly. For me the thought goes like this- There is life on other planets and that life depends on that planet, even the souls who have passed. Now if their planet dies, are they extinguished, or as a group of souls can they wander through space until they find another planet that will support their lives? I don't do well in science forums because my reading is not limited to science and my imagination is beyond science. In philosophy, we are not limited to saying something is so or not, but we can imagine and question if such a thing could be possible and if so what would that be like.
  • Athena
    1.3k
    You partly understand me. What you have described are cultural differences, which are a mix of nationalism, propaganda and, yes, some of this is philosophically derived, sure. I didn't say ideas weren't important. I was simply referring to academic or the serious study of philosophy, which most people don't do and still manage to be good people. A simple observation of no particular worth.Tom Storm

    Okay, I agree that fortunately, we all tend to be good people. I think that is because like other animals we are social animals and we learn from each other and social pressure shapes us. And we also share cultural notions of what it means to be a good man and a good woman. The changes in our notions of how a government should function is blowing me away. I never thought the federal government should be held responsible for child care so mothers can work outside the home. In the past marriage was about family duties, and by law members of the family had to take care of each other. By law, in my state, women could not hold jobs unless they can take care of the family and do the job.

    Families sent their young children to work in factories until there were laws preventing this. The parents took what the children earned and used that money as they saw fit, but wives who worked could keep what they earned. The government did not help anyone pay rent, or subsidize their need for food. Marriage was very important because it was very difficult for single parents to meet the needs of their children. It was never just a matter of law that made people care for each other and their children. Society expected proper behavior and social pressure usually got people to conform until we get to very cities where social pressure becomes less effective as we are strangers to each other.
  • Athena
    1.3k
    But there is a possibility that America is heading that way. If it happened in China where people went from worshiping the emperor to worshiping Mao Zedong overnight then it can happen anywhere. Pulling down statues and cancelling history can perfectly well end in cancelling culture and cancelling freedom. It looks to me that a lot of people are going along with that and I don't see what will stop it unless as you say, we go back to educating people in the established culture. But that won't happen if the education system is controlled by people whose main goal in life is to cancel Western culture as soon as possible.Apollodorus

    Exactly! However, I do not think there is a goal to cancel Western culture. I think the purpose of education is defined by military and economic needs and the values set by the military and bankers are not family values.

    When the US mobilized for the first world war, industry argued to close schools, saying the war caused a labor shortage and that they were not getting their money's worth because even after a young person was educated they still had to train them for the job. Teachers argued schools that made the young good citizens were also good for making them patriotic citizens and that education must replace the educated people who would be killed in the war, and indeed public education was used to mobilize the US for WWI and WWII.

    And as national defense needs change so does education. As employers had to train new employees for the rapidly changing technology, so would any military branch have to train people. We were in a crisis as our young did not learn what was needed for the developing technology and we needed to train typists, record keepers, mechanics, etc as fast as possible! :gasp: Vocational training was added to education at this time, and as everyone knows the military technology of the second world war, specifically air warfare and the atom bomb, radically changed education again.

    There is also the radical bureaucratic changes that changed education and culture. Military order needs people to obey authority. Prussian military-bureaucratic order applied to citizens brought an end to preparing everyone to be industrial and civic leaders. We tore down our national heroes who were examples of strong individuals who stepped into leadership positions, long before tearing down statues. With this change is a nanny government, subsidizing us for rent and food and medical care and now trying to change this dependency on government by insisting industry pay everyone higher wages. I think that is a mistake, but subsidizing workers is also a serious problem. And an economic system that has destroyed traditional family values is also a problem. While those educated for technology are as dependent as people in third world countries on industry to provide them jobs, because they are not educated for leadership.

    Lastly, our industry is modeled after England's autocratic model and that leads to autocratic values, not democratic ones.
  • Apollodorus
    531
    There is also the radical bureaucratic changes that changed education and culture. Military order needs people to obey authority. Prussian military-bureaucratic order applied to citizens brought an end to preparing everyone to be industrial and civic leaders. We tore down our national heroes who were examples of strong individuals who stepped into leadership positions, long before tearing down statues. With this change is a nanny government, subsidizing us for rent and food and medical care and now trying to change this dependency on government by insisting industry pay everyone higher wages. I think that is a mistake, but subsidizing workers is also a serious problem. And an economic system that has destroyed traditional family values is also a problem. While those educated for technology are as dependent as people in third world countries on industry to provide them jobs, because they are not educated for leadership.Athena

    I think that's a pretty accurate analysis there. However, it isn't just the military industry. The military industry depends on the corporate groups that control natural resources and raw materials such as oil and steel, starting with Carnegie, Rockefeller, Morgan, etc.

    It was these corporate interests and their allies from the banking and financial sector, that started taking over culture and education by funding cultural and educational institutions through their foundations and endowments. Among the groups funded by the Rockefellers was the London-based Fabian Society whose members became highly influential in education, culture and politics on both sides of the Atlantic from the early 1900s, i.e. long before WWI.

    The Fabians were the original initiators of the nanny-state concept as a method of gradual implementation of socialism. They worked on it before and during WWII and implemented it straight after the war when the Labour Party which the Fabians had founded came to power.

    How these corporate groups operated in close collaboration with the Fabians on both sides of the Atlantic has been described in detail by historians in

    Fabian Freeway: High Road to Socialism in the U S A by R. Martin
    and
    The Anglo-American Establishment by C. Quigley

    Martin focuses on the Fabians and Quigley on Anglo-American corporations. If you haven't read them already, I would highly recommend them.
  • Jack Cummins
    2.3k

    I am glad that someone else on the forum wonders about the what ifs rather just what is. Generally, I think that a lot of people I know in life don't have much patience with the what ifs. I love the imagination and the arts which is all about that. I think that is probably because my mum used to act in plays, so she encouraged me to imagine all kinds of things when I was playing as a child. She also used to like writing, and she used to write song lyrics and someone used to put tunes to them and sing them, along with a guitar for her, and record them on cassettes. Generally, I see creativity as an essential aspect of life and philosophical thinking.
  • Athena
    1.3k
    So far I am not well impressed by the Fabian Freeway book. It really is a conspiracy theory. Maybe it is written that way because murder mysteries are so popular and scaring people a little might pique their interest. The communist and socialist, I have met, all want to convince everyone that their understanding of how things should be, is the best. I don't believe anyone is secretly trying to take over and steal our freedoms from us. However, when we do not understand the importance of culture then we do not prepare our young to defend our democracy so they become adult citizens who are not prepared to defend the culture for liberty. Personally, I don't think my liberty should be at the expense of others so communist and socialist ideas are appealing to me.

    The second book is more agreeable so far. I have no problem with information about an elite group of people meeting. The Imperial Federation doesn't look like a bad thing to me yet.

    The Imperial Federation League was a 19th-century organisation which aimed to promote the reorganisation of the British Empire into an Imperial Federation, similarly to the way the majority of British North America confederated into the Dominion of Canada in the mid-19th century. The League promoted the closer union of the British Empire and advocated the establishment of "representative government" for the UK, Canada and the self-governing colonies of 'Australasia' (Australia and New Zealand) and Cape Colony (the future Union of South Africa) within a single state.wikipedia

    Perhaps we need a separate thread for this discussion. Figuring out the best form of government and best economic organization might be a mystery but probably not the kind of mystery that this thread is about. However, the subject is interesting.
  • Apollodorus
    531
    Maybe it is written that way because murder mysteries are so popular and scaring people a little might pique their interest. The communist and socialist, I have met, all want to convince everyone that their understanding of how things should be, is the best.Athena

    Well, it is a critical study. However, the point about Fabianism is that it seeks to implement socialism by stealth. This is clear from the Fabians' own statements. The method is called "permeation" in Fabian writings and it refers to putting Fabian socialist ideas into people's minds without letting them know that those ideas are socialist. It's a technical term in Fabian Socialist theory that you need to be familiar with in order to understand what the author is saying. I thought you were aware of it already.

    Fabianism/socialist movement - Britannica

    But I suppose we could start a separate thread on this. I'll look into it.
  • Apollodorus
    531
    The new thread is at Open Conspiracy - Good or Evil?

    I thought we could start with the Fabians' book The Open Conspiracy and the political ideas suggested in it.
  • Jack Cummins
    2.3k
    Just in case anyone is confused by the comment above, the new thread which was started by Apollodurus, is not meant to be to replace this one of mine, meaning this one is discontinued. I think that the idea of a separate thread is because in the last few days a political discussion has been dominating, so it probably required a separate thread.

    So, any further discussion of the mysteries of philosophy is welcome here, because I don't think that they have really been solved yet. As this thread is long, and people, especially new forubm members, may not wish to go back to the beginning, the three central mysteries which I pointed to were the existence of God, free will and life after death. In discussions of them, one theme which emerged was that of trying to understand and explain the nature of consciousness.
  • Apollodorus
    531
    Just in case anyone is confused by the comment above, the new thread which was started by Apollodurus, is not meant to be to replace this one of mine, meaning this one is discontinued. I think that the idea of a separate thread is because in the last few days a political discussion has been dominating, so it probably required a separate thread.Jack Cummins

    Correct. Athena and I thought the political conversation we were having should be continued on a separate thread without this in any way affecting Jack's thread. My apologies should this have caused any misunderstanding.
  • Jack Cummins
    2.3k

    It is fine. I think that you are going to be busy because you still have your reincarnation thread going. At times I have 2 or even 3 on the go but it can take up a lot of time replying to comments, and it sometimes means that I don't have time to pay much attention to others' threads. I may not get involved in the one you are starting. I am a bit wary of getting too involved on political thread discussions on the site and it is partly the site is online for the public. You are anonymous, but I even have my photo showing. I could have chosen a username, but I chose not to, so I am just aware that what I say is available for anyone to read.

    But, if you have any spare moments after your own threads you are more than welcome in the discussion of the mysteries. I can't believe that this thread is still going because it must have been going for about a month.
  • Athena
    1.3k
    Just in case anyone is confused by the comment above, the new thread which was started by Apollodurus, is not meant to be to replace this one of mine, meaning this one is discontinued. I think that the idea of a separate thread is because in the last few days a political discussion has been dominating, so it probably required a separate thread.

    So, any further discussion of the mysteries of philosophy is welcome here, because I don't think that they have really been solved yet. As this thread is long, and people, especially new forum members, may not wish to go back to the beginning, the three central mysteries which I pointed to were the existence of God, free will and life after death. In discussions of them, one theme which emerged was that of trying to understand and explain the nature of consciousness.
    Jack Cummins

    Thank you for restating the mysteries, and yes, the separation is about not taking your thread off-topic as we kept moving in a political direction and I felt bad about that.

    I want to go back to your earlier statement
    I am glad that someone else on the forum wonders about the what ifs rather just what isJack Cummins

    Immediately Einstien comes to mind and his thought experiment about riding on a beam of light. I am thrilled that you encourage thought experimenting as the people of science seem to be as far off course as the church of old became when it made itself the authority on what people can talk about and what they can not talk about or think about. I am sure the empirical scientists mean well, and the formula for scientific thinking has merit, but when our thinking becomes too rigid, it limits our understanding of truth.

    Einstein expanded our knowledge of reality with his thought experiments and I am sure that applying such thought experiments to the mysteries can also extend our knowledge of the unknown. One of my very old books on logic explains we can intuitively know things but need to test those ideas with the scientific method before moving a thought from an interesting thought category to empirical fact. And isn't this the work of philosophy? Creative thinking is essential to expanding our consciousness. One of the biggest mysteries is what is math? Why can knowledge of pi, and other mathematical tricks, reveal so much information? I have a math professor's lectures and he can talk for 4 hours about knots and how math makes the unseen known, such as knots in DNA. It is mind-boggling and people are arguing if math is real or a human invention.
  • Apollodorus
    531
    It is fine. I think that you are going to be busy because you still have your reincarnation thread goingJack Cummins

    I've got the feeling you might be right there. And possibly one or two other threads, too. But we all do what we can ....
  • Jack Cummins
    2.3k

    Really, I thought that you were better off having the discussion a little more discreetly on this thread as a it is quiter. I think that the topic you have started is so controversial. I am not saying that it is not worth starting, but sometimes it can all become so heated, when politics, race and gender threads are started. I did start one on prejudice, but I took a different approach to the usual political one, because I approached it from the point of how can we overcome our own prejudices. But, of course, it did get into the wider question of overcoming prejudice, but I managed to steer it away from too much politics. I also had one on totalitarianism but that was more my based on my own fears.

    I still have this one on the go and the one I started about reading, but I am going to try to avoid starting any more for about a month. I went back and counted and I have written about 40 threads in 8 months. So, I am going to try to have a little break because on some days I have about 20 comments to reply to. However, I love creating threads, so I can't promise to wait a month. But, I partly want to wait because I think that there are overlaps in my threads, so I wish to stand back, reflect and come up with something really new, but it is difficult because I am the same person with the same ideas on any thread I create. But, I do still think that the mysteries need more discussion...
  • Jack Cummins
    2.3k

    I am afraid I have difficulty understanding Maths. I was doing okay at school until I had a particular teacher whose approach I could not grasp, and I got behind. I am sure that when people get into the philosophy behind Maths it is interesting, but there is only so much we can explore.

    I do read on quantum physics and I do read about biochemistry, because it was relevant to psychiatric nursing, but I probably won't explore Maths. However, I was aware of how the doctors I worked with come from a studying the sciences and I do think it gives a certain knowledge base. Some of them took an interest in the arts too but this was variable. I generally explore philosophy, psychology, art, literature, psychology, sociology, anthropology and comparative religion, so I have a lot to read. Generally, though, I feel that one discipline alone is a bit too narrow for trying to understand 'truth.'
  • Apollodorus
    531
    Really, I thought that you were better off having the discussion a little more discreetly on this thread as a it is quiter. I think that the topic you have started is so controversial.Jack Cummins

    Agreed. But what good is a forum if you can't discuss controversial topics? We can't pretend that certain issues don't exist. And on this forum, in particular, it looks like even the most non-controversial of discussions can very fast turn (or be turned) into something else.
  • Jack CumminsAccepted Answer
    2.3k

    I think that it is interesting to discuss the controversial issues, but sometimes it seems like full scale war. I wish to explore certain amounts of controversy, but not to get too stressed out, because I have experienced so much stress in life anyway. I struggle with sleeping, and if I am glance at my phone in the night, I expect that I will see your thread popping up all night. However, my latest thread has been popping up quite a lot, so I may see that too. Anyway, I think that this is the last post for today, so goodnight.

    I have noticed that you are referring to English politics, so are you based in England too?
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