• Todd Martin
    257
    That Donald Trump, the American president, inspired this revolt, there can be no doubt: he was the main speaker at the rally of his supporters that came shortly before, and he told them both that they must fight against the injustice about to occur, if they wished “to save their country”, and that he would accompany them to the Capitol.

    Now, the first thing he said had the desired effect of causing them to storm the institution, but his failure to keep his word of the second utterance forced him to lose the cause, for there is nothing like a general at the head of his troops to inspire them. Had Trump lead his supporters to the Capitol instead of watching from afar, they would have gained access much more quickly and less violently...

    ...for, wherever he decides to go, his Secret Service must accompany him, to guard him; and if he had decided to go into the Capitol bldg that day, he would not only have brought his army in with him, but would have caused a great hesitation in the minds of the Capitol Police, as they decided whether to protect the bldg against his able bodyguards, or instead yield to The President of The United States of America. For this reason the mob would have gotten in more quickly, and been able to arrest the legislators before their guards could escort them to safety.

    Once arrested, they would have been brought back into the Senate, and ordered by the insurrection to resume ratification of the electoral votes. Pence would have taken his place at the podium, and the process begun again from the beginning, but now, instead of being the puppet of the electorate, he would be that of the president and his mob, which now fills the gallery, the balconies, hangs from the rafters and blocks every exit; and whenever a state declares its electors for Biden there is an uproar, and Hawley and Cruz and the other sycophants jump up and protest in long speeches, and the moderate Republicans sit in silence, and the Democrats are booed off the stage or threatened into submission, and The President of the Senate, fearing for his life, changes his edict in favor of Trump...

    Thusly by force and fear, courage and leadership, Donald J. Trump would have ratified his victory in the election; which thing, once ratified, by whatever means, is difficult to annul.

    If I am correct, our republic, the longest-standing extant, did not survive this insurrection because of the durability of its institutions, but rather because of the lack of virtue or prudence in the man who plotted its overthrow.

    For, to his own detriment, he was not a martially-minded man, not willing to put himself into the fray, too protective of his life and person to risk putting his neck out there. Only witness his opinion of the “suckers” that died at Normandy.

    If he had been Julius Caesar instead of the boss of The Apprentice, we would have seen the end of our state.
  • praxis
    3.3k
    I wish he had led the nutters in because then he would now be where he belongs, behind bars with horn guy.

    CAPITOL-TIMELINE7.jpg
  • James Riley
    316
    You make a good argument. The fact that Donald Trump is dishonorable, a coward, and a liar, undermined the insurrection. There is more to why it failed.
  • FlaccidDoor
    132
    The event that ended with the emergency evacuation and of congress was probably the worst thing that can happen for Trump politically speaking. The concern that many of the people who were present that day at the capitol building were about the possibility of fraudulent votes. If congress was not interrupted, there might've been a good case to be made within congress that further investigation into the matter was warranted before confirming Biden as president elect. Warranted not because there had to be fraud per se, but because enough people had doubts in the integrity of the election. However what happened was that this protest against fraud became a symbol of insurrection that was condemned by all, putting the possibility of fraud in the backburner.

    To add to fishfry's post, there's a popular narrative that is pushed that an officer was killed when defending against the rioters. This narrative was first that he was bludgeoned with a fire extinguisher which turned out to be wrong and quietly changed to ] he might've died from exposure to bear spray but actually have no evidence to back this up, including an autopsy. This officer is the only officer to have died in the riots, and there is an obvious bias to push the idea that he was murdered.

    You know, considering that the capitol police were hopelessly outnumbered in a horrific, violent insurrection, only 1 police officer getting killed (maybe) is a pretty amazing feat. I guess it was the right call that a request for backup was denied. Who cares if there's a possibility for a new civil war starting at the capitol on an announced day?
  • ssu
    3.9k
    For, to his own detriment, he was not a martially-minded man, not willing to put himself into the fray, too protective of his life and person to risk putting his neck out there. Only witness his opinion of the “suckers” that died at Normandy.Todd Martin
    Let's remember that Trump was in charge of the executive branch and the commander of the military, hence this would have been a self-coup.

    Donald Trump lives is to be at heart a media personality, who absolutely enjoys the idol worship by his supporters. And that's what this extremely narcissistic person wants, not much else (and of course more money). He doesn't have a zeal and a mission like dictators usually do. He simply isn't a man that would make a coup, or in this case a self-coup.

    The scary thing is that there were people who indeed were totally capable of going through this and would have committed. Forget the MyPillow-guy, general Flynn, ex-national security advisor and ex-leader of an intelligence service pardoned by Trump advised Trump to use the military and would be a person that would have gone through with a self-coup. He (Flynn) likely totally understood that there was no turning back once committed, either you get all the power or you go to jail for the rest of your life. That incentive, either everything or prison (or death) is a mighty incentive for people once committed to not turn back at anything. People can in this kind of situation start to believe in their own lies.

    (The pardoned Flynn would have been a loyal Trump man, who could have pulled a coup off.)
    afp_lo5r5.jpg?w=620&crop=0%2C0px%2C100%2C9999px

    (How about Giuliani as the Attorney General or leading the election fraud investigation, that might go on for years.)


    The obvious obstacle was the military. It repeatedly, and this Americans want to forget, repeatedly had to officially announce that it would do nothing and that the US military protected the constitution. Hence the Trump administration would had have to fire a lot of generals until they would have gotten military servicemen that thought that "protecting the constitution" would mean to halt the election process.

    (These guys would have been an obstacle for Trump, but perhaps others...)
    330px-Space_Force_Leader_to_Become_8th_Member_of_Joint_Chiefs_%283%29.jpg

    But Trump is no Hitler, no Stalin, nobody that can truly lead people to go through with a self-coup. He surely would have had the support at least to make it seem popular. Just think about the reaction of the crowd at January 6th if military or secret service personnel would have detained Democrat politicians and brought them out in handcuffs charged with election fraud to the crowd. The Trump mob would have been ecstatic. The hallucination that this was all done to protect the Constitution would have spread like wildfire. And, unfortunately as the vast majority of people are fearful and just want to mind their own business, it could have easily gone through. The counter protest would have naturally sprang up everywhere and naturally the police would do what the police does when demonstration without permit happen. And with an instant, I believe that a huge number of people, many also here at PF, would have assumed that the police, military and the establishment are all behind the Trump self-coup and would hurl their vitriol at any government official they see. Their inability to see that the vast majority of the government would not be on the side of the Trump putsch would be beneficial for the coup plotters. Then the counter protests would be the reason for curfews, lock downs etc. which people already are used to thanks to the coronavirus. Knowing the polarization in the US, any kind of large passive resistance and an widespread consensus that this is a coup would not have been reached. In fact, Americans would have been at each others throat even more viciously than now: the anti-Trumpists would be full of hatred against anyone that had voted for Trump, which would simply pushed a lot of Americans being in favor of Trump's actions.

    p08fnymb.jpg

    The ugliest thing is that the World would have adapted to the new situation. A lot of Americans would have just minded their own business. The coup plotters would think that they would truly be on a mission to protect the Constitution. Other countries would just express their concern about the situation, but do nothing. We'd hope that the US would find it's way again back from these troubled times. That's it. Life goes on.

    But Trump was not that man, in reality, so this is very hypothetical.

    His popularity gets people to attach to him like flies to push their own agenda. Trump simply isn't a man that would have the ability and the balls to go through with something like overthrowing the Constitution. The real issue is that there does exist those, who could go through, if they would get into power.
  • 3017amen
    2.7k
    courage and leadershipTodd Martin

    Todd!

    Can you elaborate on those concepts viz your thesis?
  • NOS4A2
    4.4k


    Frankly, he wasn’t a great leader in this instance. His idea that the crowd would be “marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard”, to “cheer on our brave senators, and congressmen and women” wasn’t followed. In fact, the violence had started before he finished speaking, both on the same day and the night before. The theory he desired a coup is contrary to his explicit statements from both before and after the event. No charge of insurrection has been levied; probably the worst charge was assault. On top of that, the defence in the impeachment trial was a sufficient refutation of the insurrection theory.

    America did survive the insurrection for the simple reason there wasn’t one.
  • 3017amen
    2.7k
    The theory he desired a coup is contrary to his explicit statements from both before and after the event.NOS4A2

    What was his intended purpose?
  • praxis
    3.3k
    America did survive the insurrection for the simple reason there wasn’t one.NOS4A2

    Forcibly entering the chambers of congress with the intent of overturning the results of a free and fair election. That’s not insurrection?
  • 3017amen
    2.7k
    force and fearTodd Martin

    Can you (also) elaborate a bit more on those concepts viz your thesis?
  • NOS4A2
    4.4k


    Forcibly entering the chambers of congress with the intent of overturning the results of a free and fair election. That’s not insurrection?

    No one has yet to be charged with the crime of insurrection, let alone convicted of it. So according to those with the authority to make such judgements, the answer is no.
  • praxis
    3.3k


    You can't think for yourself?
  • NOS4A2
    4.4k


    You can't think for yourself?

    I can and do think for myself. The authorities have, at least so far, confirmed my view. If you'll note, the insurrection theory was the prevailing view in the press and in congress. Curiously enough, you seem to share the same view. So what did you base your insurrection theory on, if not someone else's thinking?
  • praxis
    3.3k
    So what did you base your insurrection theory on, if not someone else's thinking?NOS4A2

    The actions of those who stormed the capital and the meaning of insurrection.

    So if you can think for yourself, how was it not an insurrection?
  • 3017amen
    2.7k
    So what did you base your insurrection theory on, if not someone else's thinking?NOS4A2

    Trump himself, by duping his supporters, and lawyers. And there is no theory to the fact that he watched it happen and let it happen for 90 minutes, just ask Kevin McCarthy LOL.

    I feel so sorry for all those supporters who gave him donations LOL

  • 3017amen
    2.7k


    The theory he desired a coup is contrary to his explicit statements from both before and after the event.
    — NOS4A2

    What was his intended purpose?
  • NOS4A2
    4.4k


    The actions of those who stormed the capital and the meaning of insurrection.

    So it you can think for yourself, how was it not an insurrection?

    The actions of those who broke into the capitol, the definition of insurrection, legal precedent and history. What occurred simply doesn't resemble an insurrection.
  • praxis
    3.3k


    "Condemned mostly by Republicans" but "No outrage."

    Hmmm.
  • 3017amen
    2.7k
    The actions of those who broke into the capitol, the definition of insurrection, legal precedent and history. What occurred simply doesn't resemble an insurrection.NOS4A2

    The theory he desired a coup is contrary to his explicit statements from both before and after the event.
    — NOS4A2

    What was his intended purpose?

  • praxis
    3.3k


    I don't see an argument, naturally.
  • 3017amen
    2.7k


    Indeed. Crickets LOL
  • NOS4A2
    4.4k


    What was his intended purpose?

    "After this, we’re going to walk down and I’ll be there with you. We’re going to walk down. We’re going to walk down any one you want, but I think right here. We’re going walk down to the Capitol, and we’re going to cheer on our brave senators, and congressmen and women. We’re probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them because you’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength, and you have to be strong. We have come to demand that Congress do the right thing and only count the electors who have been lawfully slated, lawfully slated. I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard."
  • NOS4A2
    4.4k


    I don't see an argument, naturally.

    I used your argument.
  • 3017amen
    2.7k
    We have come to demand that Congress do the right thing and only count the electors who have been lawfully slated, lawfully slatedNOS4A2

    What was the right thing?

  • 3017amen
    2.7k



    The actions of those who broke into the capitol, the definition of insurrection, legal precedent and history. What occurred simply doesn't resemble an insurrection.
    — NOS4A2

    The theory he desired a coup is contrary to his explicit statements from both before and after the event.
    — NOS4A2

    What was his intended purpose?
  • NOS4A2
    4.4k


    What was the right thing?

    "only count the electors who have been lawfully slated, lawfully slated"
  • praxis
    3.3k
    I don't see an argument, naturally.

    I used your argument.
    NOS4A2

    You are arguing that it was not violent and not against the government?
  • 3017amen
    2.7k


    They did, and he lost. LOL
  • 3017amen
    2.7k


    The actions of those who broke into the capitol, the definition of insurrection, legal precedent and history. What occurred simply doesn't resemble an insurrection.
    — NOS4A2

    The theory he desired a coup is contrary to his explicit statements from both before and after the event.
    — NOS4A2

    What was his intended purpose?

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