• Judaka
    1.7k

    Yes, Nazi Germany is a much better comparison to modern China than comparing it to Mao's China or Stalin's Soviet Union because Nazi Germany was an advanced capitalistic economy. Which ties back into, why did the cold war happen in the first place? Why was the US interested in ensuring China did not become communist? It's because the US is an advanced capitalistic economy, they want markets for their goods, communism threatens that. The US got what they wanted and the price China paid was the abandoning of communism.

    Even if China has socialism, the businesses that are owned by the government are highly competitive and profit-driven, it resembles all the worst parts of capitalism that communism was supposed to do away with. China's socialist element resembles capitalism in all of the ways communism took issue with as an ideology. It makes no sense for China to go backwards and their foreign and domestic policy tells you all you need to know - that have abandoned the idea of communism completely.

    Communism is dead in the 21st century, the ideology is either abandoned or in the process of being abandoned by any country who claimed they followed it.
  • Changeling
    1.4k
    China is as capitalist and socially unequal as any western nation and it won't become the 'leading economic superpower' because it lacks freedom of expression and thus innovation.

    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRl3BHULedOzigR0kmNDTPkbXRTtcmqJaTVYA&usqp=CAU

    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQyNRMkYtU7FrvQmjCD0Q5nc1j7frYf_AQZAw&usqp=CAU
  • javi2541997
    4.9k

    I've always said that there was a brief window of opportunity when Russia could indeed have been open to join the West,

    As you said one of the big fails was giving the rule of West to politicians that were so mediocrities like Bush senior. But what is pretty interesting here is how Russia is still dominant in Europe. I think their role is very important despite they are not members of the EU. I guess they do not even need it. Russia has a lot of supplies like oil which are needed it in Europe so I think it is actually EU who depends a lot from Russia. Also their geographical scenario where has frontiers in Europe and Asia. I wish a EU more connected with Russia or Kremlin but it looks like hard to reach it and each European country can only make business or diplomatic affairs with Russia by their own. Back in the day one of the governors of my country, Jose María Aznar, made an agreement with Putin about householder which wanted buy some properties along the Spanish beaches trying to promote the Russian investment. I think they did it good because there are a lot of russians who bought those (fortunately, we not only have European market...)

    Who better to promote communism than those never haven seen or experienced it.

    True. Here in Spain we never experienced communism but there a lot of people angry with the monarchy and system so they think is a necessity implant communism or at least change the State into a socialist criteria...
  • NOS4A2
    8.3k


    Can and will China promote communism once it becomes the leading economic superpower?

    What are your thoughts?

    Yes it can and will. The realization of communism is the highest ideal and ultimate goal of
    the Party.
  • ssu
    7.9k
    As you said one of the big fails was giving the rule of West to politicians that were so mediocrities like Bush senior. But what is pretty interesting here is how Russia is still dominant in Europe.javi2541997
    Have the US go back from Europe to eat apple pie and have the EU collapse and Russia is the strongest country in Europe. That's why they are so against the EU and hope that the US goes back to it's Continent.

    I wish a EU more connected with Russia or Kremlin but it looks like hard to reach it and each European country can only make business or diplomatic affairs with Russia by their own.javi2541997
    First of all, there is no European singular policy towards Russia. Only a desperate attempt to have one.

    For Ukraine, Russia is the drunk guy assaulting it. For especially the Baltic States, but also the former Warsaw Pact Countries, it is the violent drunk ex-husband that you simply cannot stand and you fear that he comes to bang your door and will try to get inside. For countries like Sweden and Finland, it's the difficult neighbor with whom you still get along quite OK and have reasonable relations, even if you have a painful history with him. For Central European countries it's a possible trade partner and so actually so far, that you aren't bothered about it's actions. And for countries like Portugal and Spain, they don't care about Russia at all, especially when you have such problematic neighbors on the North African side of the Mediterranean. And Russia? Oh he thinks that everybody is against him and he has to put it up with these hostile neighbors who are always ganging up against him. After all, there was first Napoleon and then Hitler, so no third time.

    Hence with so different starting positions, the EU has big problems to create a coherent Russia policy. This also is a prime example why the EU being the US of Europe simply doesn't work. California and North Dakota don't have any separate and/or own issues about the US policy towards Russia.
  • ssu
    7.9k
    Yes, Nazi Germany is a much better comparison to modern China than comparing it to Mao's China or Stalin's Soviet Union because Nazi Germany was an advanced capitalistic economy.Judaka
    And after Mao died, it wasn't an advanced economy. That's the key point. History and where countries start from matter.

    Which ties back into, why did the cold war happen in the first place? Why was the US interested in ensuring China did not become communist? It's because the US is an advanced capitalistic economy, they want markets for their goods, communism threatens that. The US got what they wanted and the price China paid was the abandoning of communism.Judaka
    Now there's a revisionist line!

    China was Maoist. Period.

    The Koumingtang held only to the island of Taiwan (and some remnants of the army were pushed into Burma among other places). That the US wanted and got China to abandon communism reeks to pure American intellectual hubris: to the idea that everything in this World happens because of everybody at all times follow the fiddle played by the evil Uncle Sam and the capitalists behind him.

    Perhaps Deng Xiaoping first and foremost reason wasn't the US relations, even if those obviously had improved.
    129241-004-220708F2.jpg

    Even if China has socialism, the businesses that are owned by the government are highly competitive and profit-driven, it resembles all the worst parts of capitalism that communism was supposed to do away with.Judaka
    That's the worst parts of capitalism? So you mean they ought to be less competitive in the global market or what?
  • javi2541997
    4.9k
    And for countries like Portugal and Spain, they don't care about Russia at all, especially when you have such problematic neighbors on the North African side of the Mediterraneanssu

    Thanks for understanding us. Yes, we have a big problem in the North African countries, specially Morocco and Libia. Nobody deserves die in middle of the sea trying to do something or go to Spain/Italy. Their governments are so corrupt that make a lot of mafias which literally traffic with citizens and in the most cases they will end up dying in the Mediterranean Sea...
    This is why is so funny when some Nordic countries say to Spain, Portugal, Greece and Italy that “we must have more solidarity” really? But how? It is a complex situation having this kind of dangerous frontiers.
    So yes, seeing this issue for me as a Spaniard, Russia is not a big problem for my country or Europe despite as you perfectly said it is impossible to reach a collaboration of how the history shows us the rivalry between EU and Russia because as you say:

    the EU has big problems to create a coherent Russia policy. This also is a prime example why the EU being the US of Europe simply doesn't work.ssu

    No. Exactly. EU being US will never work towards Russia policies...
  • ssu
    7.9k
    This is why is so funny when some Nordic countries say to Spain, Portugal, Greece and Italy that “we must have more solidarity” really? But how? It is a complex situation having this kind of dangerous frontiers.javi2541997
    In my view this has improved somewhat: at least when Turkey opened it's borders (just prior the Covid outbreak last year) for the next influx of migrants, Greece shut the border down and the EU stood behind the country. And this is the way to do it: do what the member states first in line want and forget getting those brownie points in your domestic political debate back home. When one country is left alone to face a commen problem, everyone will understand that they too will be left alone, if it would be them on the line.

    In the case of the Mediterranean EU members the big problem in my view is Libya. Morocco, Algeria and Tunis can somehow co-operate with the EU (with a lot of haggling, yes), but the failed state of Libya is the real problem. Or if Algeria or Morocco descends into anarchy, which wouldn't be nice.

    (Let's remember that Spain has a land border with Morooco: )
    Morocco-Foils-Attempt-of-400-Sub-Saharan-Immigrants-to-Enter-Ceuta.jpg

    Exactly. EU being US will never work towards Russia policies...javi2541997

    And just to understand the obvious limitations of such a heterogeneous group of countries as the member states of EU should be the actual starting point for the EU. But now it seems that aloof sanctimonious declarations that don't matter when you have a real crisis is the way EU policy is made.

    Don't try to build something that won't be, which won't work and be happy on what you have. Start from admitting that EU is basically a confederation of independent states, not an union controlled by a center (in the future). The foreign policy environment is simply too different for your and my countries (Finland and Spain, I guess). Those that push for tighter federalism are the real culprits for why we get populist anti-EU movements.
  • javi2541997
    4.9k
    In my view this has improved somewhat: at least when Turkey opened it's borders (just prior the Covid outbreak last year) for the next influx of migrants, Greece shut the border down and the EU stood behind the countryssu

    the big problem in my view is Libya. Morocco, Algeria and Tunis can somehow co-operate with the EU (with a lot of haggling, yes), but the failed state of Libya is the real problem. Or if Algeria or Morocco descends into anarchy, which wouldn't be nice.ssu

    Turkey when they want can be a really developed country. I guess when Erdogan opens up their frontier is just to be cocky with EU and trying to make them remember how important is Turkey in the geopolitical context. They are literally the open door for all Asia but somehow they usually act shitty towards Greece and this is not worthy at all because EU will be always in the Greece’s side.
    But... this is not the same as you explained previously when you have in the frontier countries as Morocco or Libya. They give up in democracy and diplomacy. I guess for Mohammed VI it is successful mocking Spain or Portugal with a lot of people and then diving the whole country. The Spanish police officers make the best they can against all the immigrants. I guess open so free the doors isn’t the solution at all... this is why I don’t understand when some European countries try to be “multicultural” when they already live in a bubble called social welfare state

    Don't try to build something that won't be, which won't work and be happy on what you have. Start from admitting that EU is basically a confederation of independent states, not an union controlled by a center.ssu

    I don’t even see EU as a confederation. I only see it as big bank which helps the franco-german axis.
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