It does seem a little trivial on the surface, but then I think about someone choosing what I can and cannot wear in public and am reminded of how banal and arbitrary totalitarianism is, that I dare not cede any ground on the matter.

I wear a mask wherever the rules require me to. But I’ve never been much of a mouth-breather or spitty-talker, so my lips suffice to have the same affect wherever no mask is required.

You really ought to be on a leash and with a keeper. Ignorance, stupidity, ill-informed arrogant entitlement, meet your older brother, nos4!

My understanding is Covid may be transmitted through breathing, and there's good evidence that the nose is used in breathing with some frequency as well as the mouth, so the lips themselves don't suffice as a prophylactic. But it's good to know you use a mask. I know others who don't, even when it's been requested/demanded by the owners of premises being used. Another example of how "rights" may conflict; property rights versus the right not to wear a mask.

Well it appears we need some clarification. Are you suggesting that Trump is not mentally incompetent and also not an a**hole? I've never knowingly been within 50 mile of the man, but I will concede I do not like him. — tim wood

I suggested that you didn't like President Trump and I tried to validate your feeling. No more, no less. I'm not trying to judge anyone.

And are you suggesting that Trump's choices, decisions, and statements did not have a significant effect, and still will have a significant effect, on the Covid-9 death toll and infection rates? — tim wood

There was a time to act and President Trump was at the helm at the beginning of this pandemic. Does he have due responsibility to keep Americans safe? You bet. Did he make mistakes that cost lives? Time and our due diligence to do a national autopsy on how "IT" was handled will tell us.
We are still in "IT" so "IT" is still being written today.

And why mention Hillary Clinton? Trump's failures and sins are not in virtue of a comparison with her, or with anyone. They are his alone. But I will guess, and that is that the polices of any Democrat president would have differed by so much that deaths might easily be a fraction of what they are. Anywhere from nominal to half. — tim wood

I bring up Hillary because she was the other possible Captain in this storm but trust me I will leave her right her and won't bring her up again. (God willing for me to be blessed to uphold that statement.)

Whatever sins you speak of are his to own, mine to own and everyone else who you might feel responsible for the deaths from the pandemic.
I'll be waiting in line for the confessional to open up if you care to join me.

But I will guess, and that is that the polices of any Democrat president would have differed by so much that deaths might easily be a fraction of what they are. Anywhere from nominal to half. — tim wood

I disagree with you and your utopian numbers.
Governor Cuomo's numbers between reported and then fully reported in the nursing home move. The same move was made in Illinois. The numbers of the autopsy of this pandemic is going to shock your concious.

AND once again I will state that the policy of sending COVID 19 positive patients in group homes for the handicapped are STILL being sent back to their group homes in New York. Where is the flipping outrage?

Here are listings of deaths by countries, You may find it interesting. — tim wood

I lost loved ones to this pandemic in two states. Maybe if you gave a flying fig to read my posts all the way through before suggesting I look at the hyper links to pandemic numbers and where we rank, your character might be a little more becoming of you but that is yours to own.

What are the dynamics of droplets coming from the nose? It would be an interesting study to read. But all talk of droplets, masks, breathing, are nugatory when it comes to people not carrying the virus. Removing the ignorance might be a more prudent measure, but we are happy not knowing and covering that ignorance with a cloth fig-leaf.

Property rights override my right to wear what I want and say what I want to say, in my opinion. If I wish to spend time on someone’s property, I respect their rules or will go elsewhere. Rights don’t conflict so much as they overlap.

But all talk of droplets, masks, breathing, are nugatory when it comes to people not carrying the virus. — NOS4A2

It seems we can't know whether they do or not without testing them, and my guess is you don't think testing should be required (I think it's likely it would be impossible to achieve, in any case). And it seems someone carrying it may be asymptomatic. So, wearing a mask is a not unreasonable way to avoid transmission which doesn't require that we simply assume we, and others, don't carry it--an assumption which seems unwarranted.

Every guidance on mask wearing I’ve read stipulates that mask wearing alone cannot prevent the spread of the virus. So alone, it is an unreasonable way to prevent transmission. And if preventing transmission is the sole purpose, we might as well do what China did and weld people into their dwellings.

Every guidance on mask wearing I’ve read stipulates that mask wearing alone cannot prevent the spread of the virus. So alone, it is an unreasonable way to prevent transmission. And if preventing transmission is the sole purpose, we might as well do what China did and weld people into their dwellings. — NOS4A2

This would be a good post to analyse in a critical thinking class. No need on this forum of course.

Tell me how many of the 500,000+ dead, my family members among those we lost, would still be alive if President Hillary Clinton had been chosen. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Probably less, and that's all that matters. Requesting a specific number is silly. It's possible some of your family and friends who died would still be alive.

It's fairly simple to do an analysis in terms of Article 8 or the ECHR. I'm not sure what the septics have in terms of HR law.

Article 8 is the right to a private life. It's a qualified right, not an absolute right (the right to life is an example of an absolute right). That means it can be restricted under certain circumstances in the pursuit of a legitimate aim. Here it is in full:

Article 8 – Right to respect for private and family life

1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.

2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others. — ECHR

I've highlighted the relevant legitimate aim in bold.

Any restriction of a qualified right must be proportional and reasonable. That's why, in the UK at least, if someone has a medical reason that wearing a mask is difficult, or they have sensory issues that makes wearing a mask very uncomfortable, they don't have to wear one. Also, no one has to wear a mask if they go for a walk outside, as long as they socially distance. This is all reasonable and proportional to the risks and discomfort involved. People are not being asked to wear masks in an unreasonable way under any circumstances whatever. This is not a civil liberties issue. It's well within the law that covers people's right to a private life. As soon as the pandemic is over, the requirement to wear a mask will be lifted. It if isn't, for no good reason, than that might breach Article 8. But at present, it doesn't.

Remain humble my friend :flower: — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Nah. We're just better than you.

Probably less, and that's all that matters. Requesting a specific number is silly. It's possible some of your family and friends who died would still be alive. — bert1

It does matter or it wouldn't be something that is focused on.
As far as my family is concerned: the death here in AZ was COVID in a long term care facility but like others, she had a DNR and a DNI so I don't know if she would still be with us as Influenza could have taken her.
My family in Illinois is going to shake out but my Uncle was denied seeing my family members, he fought to see them and was denied. My Uncle was there 6 out of 7 days a week and he battled the nursing home rules and it didn't matter. He never got a last call, a last visit and no idea how he was. My Uncle learned of Italo's passing by getting a greeting card back saying Return to sender.
Italo was 99 and his wife was 87. My Uncle found out via the obituaries. What the hell? Are we in America still?
Accountability will happen because we have all the time in the world now to figure out what got so fucked up that family loses loved ones this way.

Nah. We're just better than you. — bert1

Whatever you need to tell yourself to be "better" than I. Tell you what, while I'm at it I will tell you you are AMAZING.

Better? :eyes:

My family in Illinois is going to shake out but my Uncle was denied seeing my family members, he fought to see them and was denied. My Uncle was there 6 out of 7 days a week and he battled the nursing home rules and it didn't matter. He never got a last call, a last visit and no idea how he was. My Uncle learned of Italo's passing by getting a greeting card back saying Return to sender. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

I know I'm a bit of an asshole to you and we disagree about more or less everything. But I'm genuinely sorry you have lost people you love.

Better? :eyes: — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Yeah, feels pretty good. I know you mean the exact opposite, but even just seeing the word is something. I can pretend you mean it.

Yeah, feels pretty good. I know you mean the exact opposite, but even just seeing the word is something. I can pretend you mean it. — bert1

Wow. I think we got the bert1 from the meanie alternate reality.

I know I'm a bit of an asshole to you and we disagree about more or less everything. But I'm genuinely sorry you have lost people you love. — bert1

Bert, I appreciate your empathy and Thank you for your friendship. There are very few things that humanity as a whole can agree on but the joy of birth and sorrow of death are two universal emotions we share. :flower:

Blaming deaths on such a belief is rather silly. If anything, the opposite belief was promoted. But as they found out the hard way, you cannot police a virus by denying people’s rights. — NOS4A2

I don't think anybody's rights were denied. You don't have a right to endanger other people.

That said, Australia comparing itself to Europe and America is like a white guy praising himself for his accomplishments. Yes, you worked hard, yes you were smart, and yes you were successful.

But you were lucky. Only a childish person finds it impossible to take that into account.

Just had a very quick google about American HR law. It seems human rights have found a home in the US constitution via various amendments, is that right? These are based on the UDHR.

I'd be interested in what legal rights, specifically, mask wearing, lockdown and social distancing (as the main covid responses apart from the vaccine) are engaged by these measures? Anyone know?

It seems human rights have found a home in the US constitution via various amendments, is that right? These are based on the UDHR. — bert1

Which amendment are you talking about?

I don't know! I'm trying to make sense of claims that covid protection measures breach people's rights. According to UK and EU law, there is demonstrably no such breach. I don't know the legal situation in America. I did a very brief google just to see if it was obvious what rights were being engaged, but I did not spend much time on it. I'm interested to know what rights people in America think are being engaged and perhaps breached.

Do you have a view on this?

If there was any real concern that requiring masks, social distancing, and lockdowns were in violation of some rights guaranteed by the constitution, the issue would have been considered by the Supreme Court by now. If there were any cases, I didn't hear about them.

Opposition to mask wearing appeared early among Trump supporters. Everybody else started wearing them without being asked. Likewise cities across America locked down independently of state or federal recommendations. In my state, for instance, there was a little tension between mayors and the governor about this. I eventually learned that this wasn't unusual. I guess governors were more concerned with the economic impact and cities were more worried about their hospitals and schools. And that makes sense.

In my state, covid first appeared among migrant workers who don't speak english and even months into the pandemic didn't understand what was happening. We now have city buses using their exteriors to try to educate illiterate migrant workers about the symptoms and what they mean (in pictures). This group was ultimately hit the hardest by the pandemic.

The idea that non-mask-wearing Trump supporters were the cause of the American covid disaster isn't true. It wasn't Trump's fault either, though he could have helped out by locking himself in a closet for a year.

I don't know! I'm trying to make sense of claims... people's rights... the legal situation in America. — bert1

Any American will be glad to tell you what his rights are, likely more than you would want to hear. The problem is that most Americans, on the topic of their rights, know as much about them as they know about whether they have an itch to be scratched, or less, but certainly no more. That is, most Americans are uneducated on rights, theirs or anyone else's, but that lack of knowledge and understanding does not slow most of them down even a little.

I, myself, like to think that rights in America are mainly at first cut reasonable and sensible. That is, common sense is a pretty good first guide. Which will get you exactly nowhere with people who lack that basic capacity for common sense, which, alas, is most of us.

The idea that non-mask-wearing Trump supporters were the cause of the American covid disaster isn't true. It wasn't Trump's fault either, though he could have helped out by locking himself in a closet for a year. — frank

There's Covid, and there's the American Covid disaster, the latter the Magas and their hero have a lot to do with. If Putin himself had wanted a plan for handling Covid that would be about as bad as possible for Americans, he would have been very satisfied with Trump.

There's Covid, and there's the American Covid disaster, the latter the Magas and their hero have a lot to do with. — tim wood

If you watched a lot of CNN, you'd believe this. You would have laughed when Trump said Cuomo was using the pandemic for political purposes. Trump was right.

If you watched a lot of CNN, you'd believe this. You would have laughed when Trump said Cuomo was using the pandemic for political purposes. Trump was right. — frank

Non-sequitur. And either you know it or you do not. Neither way is flattering to you

There's Covid, and there's the American Covid disaster, the latter the Magas and their hero have a lot to do with. If Putin himself had wanted a plan for handling Covid that would be about as bad as possible for Americans, he would have been very satisfied with Trump. — tim wood

Without President Trump being at the helm ALREADY when COVID hit our shores in late 2019, with the idea of taking out two laws for every new one, for making Compassionate use of unproven medications with the right to try promise, which did facilitate patients being on the edge of survival offer some hope? Same dude right?
Also the obvious one in this response is Operation Warp Speed.
I'm in no hurry to put judgement on anyone but I will when the time is right AND the suspicious veil is pulled back to expose the truth about my family and friends in Chicago who died alone.
I got the most amazing news yesterday when I found out that Arizona is beginning tomorrow vaccinating anyone over the age of 16!
A little light is growing fast and I hope both you and I are here a year from now to be discussing it :flower:

Non-sequitur. And either you know it or you do not. Neither way is flattering to you — tim wood

You're the mirror image of Nos.

Except he's more civil.

If there was any real concern that requiring masks, social distancing, and lockdowns were in violation of some rights guaranteed by the constitution, the issue would have been considered by the Supreme Court by now. If there were any cases, I didn't hear about them. — frank

Thanks frank, that's interesting.

Any American will be glad to tell you what his rights are, likely more than you would want to hear. The problem is that most Americans, on the topic of their rights, know as much about them as they know about whether they have an itch to be scratched, or less, but certainly no more. That is, most Americans are uneducated on rights, theirs or anyone else's, but that lack of knowledge and understanding does not slow most of them down even a little.

I, myself, like to think that rights in America are mainly at first cut reasonable and sensible. That is, common sense is a pretty good first guide. Which will get you exactly nowhere with people who lack that basic capacity for common sense, which, alas, is most of us. — tim wood

Thanks, I did wonder if that was what is going on but didn't want to assume.