Unless... — khaled

Yep; so it is possible for two people to share the same pain-token (ugly - but others insist on this terminology...)

QED...

I don’t really think that’s an important question. Whether or not people can or can’t share the same pain token. Did you read what was after the “unless”?

It seems like a definitional thing. What can happen is for 2 people to have identical experiences. You can define it so that that is the same experience token or not. I don’t think it matters.

Though, I think it’s way less confusing to just say “2 identical experiences”. Same token or not, we can agree there.

Who cares if it’s same token or not?

What can happen is for 2 people to have identical experiences. You can define it so that that is the same experience token or not. — khaled

If there are two of them, then they are not the same token, they are the same type.

Yep; so it is possible for two people to share the same pain-token (ugly - but others insist on this terminology...) — Banno

Metaphysically possible, yes. You didn't need Salinas for that. And that proves what?

"Rose is a rose is a rose"

The first "Rose" is one of three tokens.

We both see it. Are you saying there are two of them?

2 people, one token.

I'm not writing it again.

I don't think you wrote it the first time.

As I said, you are not following the discussion.

So who amongst us knows what it's supposed to prove? I'll ask that person.

Anyone?

"Rose is a rose is a rose"

The first "Rose" is one of three tokens.

We both see it. Are you saying there are two of them? — Banno

Why the fuck would you think I was referring to the number of tokens in "Rose is a rose is a rose"? I was clearly referring to Khaled's example that I quoted, you goose.

2 people, one token. — Banno

How is that possible? Explain it.

Why the fuck would you think I was referring to the number of tokens in "Rose is a rose is a rose"? I was clearly referring to Khaled's example that I quoted, you goose. — Luke

Yeah - I don't see a point in continuing. Think in my last post, 'cause you missed it.

"Rose is a rose is a rose"

The first "Rose" is one of three tokens.

We both see it. Are you saying there are two of them? — Banno

Explain to me how this relates to what I said. How could I possibly be saying there are two tokens in "Rose is a rose is a rose" when I never referred to that phrase?

In this case a token became a type. Each of you saw a separate token of a type (of a token).

smh

We both saw it and each had our own individual experiences of it. I wouldn't say we each saw a separate token. We both saw the same word. It's our perceptual experiences which are different tokens, just as it would be if we both felt pain at the same time.

Sorry, that printed before I was through. You each saw tokens of the same sentence.

It had been pointed out that the first word was a token Banjo used this to imply that you had each seen the same token. One token, two people.

As you say, where pain, which is an experience, is taken to be a token, for two people to experience the same token would mean two people have the same experience. One mind, two people.

No, Banno is here next to me. :razz:

Dunno if it relates, but you said “metaphysically” and “anyone?”, so....pain is a subjective condition common to humans in general; pain, as the subject’s “appraisal of his subjective condition”, is never shared.

Just as is, or is not, pleasure.

Yes, we both saw different screens, but I thought Banno's point was supposed to be that both of us seeing the same word "Rose" is one token, not two. The (instance of Banno's typing the) word is one token, but our individual experiences of (seeing) the word are two tokens. My response to Khaled was in relation to two identical experiences, which are two tokens of the same type.

Metaphysical possibility is close to logical possibility. If you can imagine some god who made pain as a kind of invisible field or ocean where different people can experience the same field, then it's metaphysically possible that two people could experience the same pain.

My response to Khaled was in relation to two identical experiences, which are two tokens of the same type. — Luke

Right. Otherwise we'd have one mind and two bodies.

:100:

Here's what you said:

What can happen is for 2 people to have identical experiences. You can define it so that that is the same experience token or not.
— khaled

If there are two of them, then they are not the same token, they are the same type. — Luke

If there are two of them...

SO here's another example of tokens:

"Rose is a rose is a rose"

The first "Rose" is one of three tokens.
— Banno

You agree?

Suppose you and I are both looking at that sentence.

We both see it. I hope you will agree that there are 2 people, but one token - the first instance of "Rose".

So here we have two experiences of the very same token - the first instance of "Rose". This is a counterexample to your: If there are two of them, then they are not the same token.

The difficulty is the bending over backwards that has to take place to phrase these arguments in the terms you and others use. The notion of tokens adds nothin to the discussion. It detracts and distracts.

And we are now off what should be the main point of discussion: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/503752

Ah. Some folk here may think tokens are a type of experience or qualia.

That would explain the weird digression.

Fuck.

Banjo... — frank

Look - even your spelling checker knows that I am instrumental.

I thought token was an experience reserved for Saturday night.

I prefer a tea.

True enough. But it doesn’t follow from the general capacity for feeling pain, that individual instances of it are necessarily mutually inclusive.

If there are two of them... — Banno

Yes, two experiences. This was in response to what Khaled said: "You can define it so that that is the same experience token or not." We were talking about experiences.

I hope you will agree that there are 2 people, but one token - the first instance of "Rose". — Banno

Yes, there is one token of the word. I'm not talking about the word.

So here we have two experiences of the very same token - the first instance of "Rose". — Banno

I'm talking about types and tokens of experience, not types and tokens of words.

The (instance of Banno's typing the) word is one token, but our individual experiences of (seeing) the word are two tokens. — Luke