• Luke
    1.3k
    not following 'you'Isaac

    Well, you said that all knowledge is inferential. I asked what inferences you make to know that you are having pain sensations. You claimed that you made inferences from your brain signals. Personally, I'm not consciously aware of signals being sent from my thalamus, and I just have pain sensations without making any inferences. I guess I'm weird like that.
  • Isaac
    4k
    I'm not consciously aware of signals being sent from my thalamus, and I just feel my pain sensations. I guess I'm weird like that.Luke

    You are aware of them. Awareness of a thing and knowing what it's technical name is are not the same thing.
  • Luke
    1.3k
    How am I aware of the signals being sent from my thalamus? If I were conscious of it, I think I would know.
  • Marchesk
    4.3k
    Why do people in ordinary language occasionally say things like, "the pain must be in your head"?
  • Marchesk
    4.3k
    Here's the thing i would guard against: those who have, either explicitly or implicitly, a theory of the meaning of "red" or "pain" such that these words refer to something in one's mind.Banno

    Where did the meaning of something being in someone's mind come from?
  • Marchesk
    4.3k
    No. The neuroscientist is not correlating with experiences he has. He's correlating with the spoken words the subject is reporting, on the assumption that these refer to something shared - the public concept of pain.Isaac

    So why are they called, "the neural correlates of consciousness"?
  • Mww
    2.1k
    Here's the thing i would guard against:Banno

    No need, really. Having gained their victory, such theoreticians find precious little profit in venturing into that which for them, would be naught but a wasteland.

    Still, probably best beware the odd quixotic nonetheless, for whom the proper theoretician is not responsible.
  • Isaac
    4k
    How am I aware of the signals being sent from my thalamus? If I were conscious of it, I think I would know.Luke

    You're aware of your arm movements aren't you? Well, they're signals from your proprioception system through your cerebellum. All I've done there is given it a technical name and added some detail to the route, I've not changed what you're aware of.

    Let's say you had some lesion within your cerebellum, you think your arm is doing one thing, but it's actually doing another. What is it you're 'aware of' there? You can't say "my arm", you're obviously not aware of your arm. You're aware of the (faulty) signals from your cerebellum. You assume they're telling you about your arm.
  • Isaac
    4k
    Why do people in ordinary language occasionally say things like, "the pain must be in your head"?Marchesk

    The last part of the system I described to Luke

    ... These are then modulated, filtered and suppressed in turn by models in the frontal cortex which is where cultural mediation, semantics, other somatosensory feedback and environmental cues come in to play.Isaac
  • Isaac
    4k
    So why are they called, "the neural correlates of consciousness"?Marchesk


    ...on the assumption that these refer to something shared - the public concept...Isaac
  • Luke
    1.3k
    You're aware of your arm movements aren't you? Well, they're signals from your proprioception system through your cerebellum.Isaac

    My arm movements are not my brain function. Am I aware of my arm movements or am I aware of my brain function? The awareness of my arm movements might be the result of my brain function, but that doesn't mean I have awareness of my brain function.

    I've not changed what you're aware of.Isaac

    Clearly you have.
  • Isaac
    4k
    Am I aware of my arm movements or am I aware of my brain function?Luke

    I've just shown that. If you have a lesion in part of your cerebellum the thing you think of as awareness of your arm clearly isn't. You're obviously not aware of your arm (your arm is in one place, your awareness is telling you it's in another). So it simply can't be that you're aware of the location of your arm. You're conclusively not.
  • Marchesk
    4.3k
    The last part of the system I described to Luke

    ... These are then modulated, filtered and suppressed in turn by models in the frontal cortex which is where cultural mediation, semantics, other somatosensory feedback and environmental cues come in to play.
    — Isaac
    Isaac

    So the public referent to "pain in your head" comes from a bunch of technical jargon?

    ...on the assumption that these refer to something shared - the public concept...Isaac

    The public concept is of a first person experience. That's why it's called a correlation.
  • Luke
    1.3k
    Let's say you had some lesion within your cerebellum, you think your arm is doing one thing, but it's actually doing another. What is it you're 'aware of' there? You can't say "my arm", you're obviously not aware of your arm.Isaac

    What I'm conscious of is what I think my arm is doing, even if it's doing something else. What I am not conscious of are the brain signals that help to produce or inform my conscious thought about what my arm is doing.

    You're aware of the (faulty) signals from your cerebellum. You assume they're telling you about your arm.Isaac

    I'd imagine that I wouldn't need to make assumptions about my arm if I was already aware of the signals from my cerebellum. But why stop there? I don't see why I shouldn't also be aware of the lesion, if I were to actually have these superpowers of awareness about my unconscious bodily functions.
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