• [Ontology] Donald Hoffman’s denial of materialism
    This is why I like to talk about our 'lifeworld'plaque flag

    And who is well-known for having introduced the concept of 'lebenswelt' into the philosophical lexicon? (Oh, and yes.)

    When philosophers talk about the “I”, they presuppose the “we”, because they do not mean a single empirical subject but the universal form of subjectivity, an idea that assumes its instantiation in a plurality of individuals, i.e., society.Jamal

    That's more or less straightforward Hegelianism, isn't it?

    That is to say, idealism is parasitic on the real.Jamal

    You mean, parasitic on the reality that exists in the absence of any observers, right?
  • [Ontology] Donald Hoffman’s denial of materialism
    If you can give an account like thatBanno

    any point of view is not no point of view.
  • [Ontology] Donald Hoffman’s denial of materialism
    Where is the observer ? Does it have a body ?plaque flag

    By 'observer' I'm referring to humans. 'Imagine that all life has vanished from the universe, but everything else is undisturbed. Matter is scattered about in space in the same way as it is now, there is sunlight, there are stars, planets and galaxies—but all of it is unseen. There is no human or animal eye to cast a glance at objects, hence nothing is discerned, recognized or even noticed. Objects in the unobserved universe have no shape, color or individual appearance, because shape and appearance are created by minds. Nor do they have features, because features correspond to categories of animal sensation. This is the way the early universe was before the emergence of life—and the way the present universe is outside the view of any observer' ~ Charles Pinter

    What the observer brings to experience is a perspective, a point of view, only within which any statement about what is real or what exists is meaningful. Realism forgets the subject and seeks only explanations and fundamental causes which are inherent in the objective domain. But that is impossible, as the very source of that order is the mind of the observer (that's more or less straight out of Schopenhauer).
  • [Ontology] Donald Hoffman’s denial of materialism
    The point of that paragraph is to illustrate the sense in which time and space - or duration and location - are provided by the observer and have no fixed or absolute reality outside that. As the whole argument is about whether or in what way the world is mind-independent, this is a central point. Here I’m arguing in favour of something like Hoffman’s cognitive realism despite my many reservations about some aspects of his overall view.
  • [Ontology] Donald Hoffman’s denial of materialism
    what can be meant by perception if there are no brains?plaque flag

    Picture a tranquil mountain meadow. Butterflies flit back and forth amongst the buttercups and daisies, and off in the distance, a snow-capped mountain peak provides a picturesque backdrop. The melodious clunk of the cow-bells, the chirping of crickets, and the calling of birds provide the soundtrack to the vista, with not a human to be seen.

    Now picture the same scene — but from no point of view. Imagine that you are perceiving it from every possible point within it and around it. Furthermore, imagine seeing it from every possible scale: as if you were seeing it as a mite on a blade of grass, in every location, and then also, as a creature of various sizes, up to a creature the size of the mountain peak, and from every possible vantage point.

    Then subtract from all these perspectives, any sense of temporal continuity — any sense of memory of the moment just past, and expectation of the one about to come.


    Having done that, describe the same scene.

    “Impossible!” you object. “How can I imagine any such thing?! It is really nothing at all, it is an impossibility, a jumble of stimuli, if anything — this is what you are asking me to imagine! It is completely unintelligible.”
  • [Ontology] Donald Hoffman’s denial of materialism
    Read a great critical analysis of the idealism of Jeans and Eddington recently, I'll see if I can dig it up. But the memes that entered popular culture in the 30's and 40's are often quoted:

    The stream of knowledge is heading towards a non-mechanical reality; the universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a machine. Mind no longer appears to be an accidental intruder into the realm of matter...we ought rather hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter. — James Jeans

    The idea of a universal mind or Logos would be, I think, a fairly plausible inference from the present state of scientific theory. — Arthur Eddington

    The physical world is entirely abstract and without actuality apart from its linkage to consciousness. — Arthur Eddington
  • [Ontology] Donald Hoffman’s denial of materialism
    Can you clarify?Tom Storm

    I'm reading it again - it's the subject of several chapters in Crisis of European Sciences which I bought recently (dense and difficult text). Husserl's claim to fame is, obviously, the founder of phenomenology, and as such the principle source of what is now 'the Continental Tradition'. The schools of enactivism and embodied cognition draw a great deal from phenomenology. (All these sources I've only become familiar with through the Forums in the last decade or so and am trying to get up to speed on. By the way, very interesting article here on Collingwood, Gilbert Ryle, and the origin of the analytic/continental divide.)

    There are forms of idealism that are suggested by both cognitive science (Hoffman and others) and also by at least some interpretations of quantum physics (going back to James Jeans and Arthur Eddington but with many contemporary representatives.) It might be that 'idealism' is really the wrong term for a lot of these ideas but what they have in common is the sense in which the world is constructed and shaped by the experiencing subject, rather than simply being a given (subject of 'the myth of the given') inscribed on the tabula rasa of the mind.
  • [Ontology] Donald Hoffman’s denial of materialism
    Problems arise in respect of the indubitable reality of one's own being when treated as object. What kind of thing is it? Does it exist? etc. All empty questions. The self as subject of experience is never the object of cognition but that to whom they appear. It's worth reading up on Husserl's analysis of cogito ergo sum in this respect. Husserl's main criticism of Descartes' argument was that it relied on the notion of the self as a substance. According to Husserl, Descartes assumed that the self was an enduring subject that remained constant over time, but Husserl argued that this assumption was not warranted, instead saying that the self was a process that was constantly changing and evolving.

    Husserl also criticized Descartes for relying on the language of subject and object, which he believed reinforced a dualistic view of the world. According to Husserl, this dualism created a separation between the subjective and objective worlds, which he believed was a mistake. He credited Descartes with the breakthrough of realising the fundamental role of the subject, but then mistakenly portraying it as a 'thinking thing' - a 'little fag end' of the natural world was an expression he used. That is what becomes the subject of Ryle's criticism of the ghost in the machine, subsequently rectified by the analysis of the embodied cognitivists.

    (Plaque Flag? I thought we were done with rotating user ID's.)
  • [Ontology] Donald Hoffman’s denial of materialism
    But who will doubt that he lives, remembers, understands, wills, thinks, knows, and judges? For even if he doubts, he lives. If he doubts where his doubts come from, he remembers. If he doubts, he understands that he doubts. If he doubts, he wants to be certain. If he doubts, he thinks. If he doubts, he knows that he does not know. If he doubts, he judges that he ougth not rashly to give assent. So whoever acquires a doubt from any source ought not to doubt any of these things whose non-existence would mean that he could not entertain doubt about anything. — Augustine, On the Trinity 10.10.14 quoted in Richard Sorabji, Self, 2006, p.219
  • Problems studying the Subjective
    Is "The Aristos" worth readingT Clark

    I took it out of the library decades ago. It is his meditation on Greek philosophy with a large collection of Heraclitus’ aphorisms, that one has always stayed with me.
  • Problems studying the Subjective
    I would say yes but it is very difficult to resolve since one has to deal with such a deep conditioning on many levels.TheMadMan

    Right. Ever since we became selves, back on the African plains.
  • Problems studying the Subjective
    It might be relevant to introduce a Buddhist perspective on this question. It is often said that Buddhism holds that there is no self, but that is not quite right. The Buddhist teaching is that everything ('all dharmas') are without self (anatta). My interpretation is that by the very act of identifying something as 'me' and 'mine', then you're introducing a separation or a division between self and other - 'this is mine'. That is the basic act of 'I-making and mine-making' as the Buddhist saying has it. Then as soon as you create that conceptual division, there is space within it for all kinds of differentiation of 'mine' from 'yours', and what I understand versus what you understand, and so on. This leads to a proliferation of concepts and 'thicket of views'. I think the Buddhist view is that, so long as you're preoccupied with what is peculiar to you, or specifically yours, you can find an endless number of items to occupy that list, but then it becomes something that weighs you down, cuts you off from others. I think that is the import of 'anatta', no-self.
  • Problems studying the Subjective
    'The many dwell in their own private world, whilst the awakened have but one world in common' ~ Heraclitus (quoted in John Fowles, The Aristos).
  • [Ontology] Donald Hoffman’s denial of materialism
    So the snake is... and here I'm trying to work out what it is Hoffman would say... some sort of community of interweaving conscious agents.Banno

    There's a frequent simile in Indian philosophy of mistaking a piece of rope for a snake. Typically it is used to represent misjudgement or being fooled by appearances. But in Hoffman's theory, if the snake is not really a snake, but only an icon, what does the icon represent? If it's not really a snake, then what is it? Answer seems to be 'we don't know'.

    For that matter - is the Interface Theory of Perception falsifiable, in Popper's sense. It's hard to see how any empirical facts could be used to falsify a theory about the nature of empirical cognition.
  • [Ontology] Donald Hoffman’s denial of materialism
    The clincher for me is that , if 'fitness beats truth', then how is it different from regular scepticism? And life's too short - there are many other things to pursue and read up on. Oh, and his inability to say what 'conscious agents' are or what that term means. It seems absent an overall philosophical framework far as I can see.
  • [Ontology] Donald Hoffman’s denial of materialism
    Myself, I'm done with Donald Hoffman, no further interest in the topic.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    Remember when Republicans complained bitterly that Obama had the audacity to appear at a press conference wearing a tan suit?
  • Neuroscience is of no relevance to the problem of consciousness
    My philosophy is ALWAYS based on the latest scientific epistemology and on the actual goals of scienceNickolasgaspar

    You make my point for me.
  • Neuroscience is of no relevance to the problem of consciousness
    Do your own research on ‘subjective unity of experience - neural correlates’.
  • Neuroscience is of no relevance to the problem of consciousness
    The dude who wrote the above doesn't understand the role of cognitive science and neuroscience.Nickolasgaspar

    Maxwell Richard Bennett is an Australian neuroscientist specializing in the function of synapses. He has published a large number of text books and journal articles on neuroscience.

    the philosophy of mind you are referring to has nothing to do with the actual scienceNickolasgaspar

    You don't demonstrate any understanding of philosophy.
  • Neuroscience is of no relevance to the problem of consciousness
    Jerome Feldman isn't a Neuro or Cognitive scientistNickolasgaspar

    As stated in that article, there is no scientific account for the subjective unity of experience. If you go back and check it, that claim is thoroughly validated by the references in that paper, and is central to this whole argument. Just to re-state, Feldman shows that science has no account of which specific brain function gives rise to our sense of the experience of world as a unified whole. It can certainly help when something goes wrong with neural functioning and people mistake their wives for hats, and so on. But about why we experience the world as a unified whole, there is no current theory:

    What we do know is that there is no place in the brain where there could be a direct neural encoding of the illusory detailed scene (Kaas and Collins 2003). That is, enough is known about the structure and function of the visual system to rule out any detailed neural representation that embodies the subjective experience. So, this version of the NBP really is a scientific mystery at this time.
  • Neuroscience is of no relevance to the problem of consciousness
    Well neuroscience can only describe the brain mechanisms responsible for creating the subjective experience of beingNickolasgaspar

    It can’t.

    What [neuroscience] cannot do is replace the wide range of ordinary psychological explanations of human activities in terms of reasons, intentions, purposes, goals, values, rules and conventions by neurological explanations . . . . And it cannot explain how an animal perceives or thinks by reference to the brain's, or some parts of the brain's, perceiving or thinking. For it makes no sense to ascribe such psychological attributes to anything less than the animal as a whole. It is the animal that perceives, not parts of its brain, and it is human beings who think and reason, not their brains. The brain and its activities make it possible for us—not for it—to perceive and think, to feel emotions, and to form and pursue projects. (p. 3)Review of Bennett and Hacker, Philosophical Foundations of Neuroscience

    First of all,made up pseudo philosophical ''why" problems are not "hard problems".Nickolasgaspar

    If you want to criticize something, you first have to demonstrate that you understand it.

    We have being doing it for decades, this is why we have Medications on psychopathology, this is why we have Brain Surgery protocols for different pathologies and this is why we can make Diagnosis (predictions) based on the physical condition of the organ (brain imagine).Nickolasgaspar

    I have had near and dear relatives saved by neuroscience, for which I am eternally grateful, but that doesn't have any particular relevance to philosophy of mind.

    Jerome Feldman isn't a Neuro or Cognitive scientistNickolasgaspar
    Makes no difference to the facts presented.
  • [Ontology] Donald Hoffman’s denial of materialism
    In any case, I'm definitely cooling on Hoffman. One idea that really threw me in the long article Banno pinned, was that 'conscious agents' are not necessarily human beings, but might be completely unknown to us. :yikes: Myself, not being wedded to materialism, am quite prepared to accept that there might be immaterial intelligences, but I don't know if this is what Hoffman has in mind, in fact I don't know if he knows what he means.

    One weakness in the 'desktop metaphor' is that at least a computer scientist will understand exactly the real operations that are being performed by the user interface, right down to the machine code and micro-electronics that underlie it. A scientist could explain comprehensively what the icons really are and how they work to achieve the user's purposes. I don't know if Hoffman can have any corresponding ontology of what the real connections are between perceiving subjects and objects that correspond to his metaphor of creatures manipulating icons. He says it's not real - compared to what?

    In classical philosophy and theology, you will frequently encounter the notion of The One or The Good as 'beyond being'. What I think this actually means is 'beyond the vicissitudes of existence' - all material phenomena - everything that exists - is compounded, conditioned, and subject to change and decay. The search was always for that which is not subject to change and decay (which is also characteristic of mathematical knowledge in some degree as it is not subject to fluctuation or change.) The unconditoned was represented in Plato by the Ideas or the Form of the Good, which was 'beyond existence' in that sense - not coming into or passing out of being, but always so. Very much the subject of later and neo-platonism, and subsequently assimilated into Platonic Christianity. This is articulated very clearly (for such an abstruse topic!) in the SEP entry on Scotus Eriugena in a discussion of levels or planes of reality. Completely separate topic to this thread, however.
  • [Ontology] Donald Hoffman’s denial of materialism
    Existence is not a predicategreen flag

    Kant's criticism of the ontological argument.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    Next court appearance for DJT for the NY case is currently listed for 4th December. Quite possibly several other indictments will have been unsealed in the meanwhile.

    Comment from today's SMH put the finger on what the NY indictment is actually about, which is more than falsification of business records:

    What Bragg [said] was that this case is not a garden-variety fiddling with the books. Bragg made that clear in two sentences in the indictment and one sentence in his media conference:

    “The defendant Donald J. Trump repeatedly and fraudulently falsified New York business records to conceal criminal conduct that hid damaging information from the voting public during the 2016 presidential election. From August 2015 to December 2017, the defendant orchestrated a scheme with others to influence the 2016 presidential election by identifying and purchasing negative information about him to suppress its publication and benefit the defendant’s electoral prospects.”

    Addressing the media, Bragg said that under New York law it is a crime to “conspire to promote a candidacy by unlawful means. That is exactly what this case is about.”

    In other words, says Bragg, Trump was criminally messing with the 2016 presidential election. Much bigger than bad bookkeeping. ...The Bragg indictment presents a credible case of an unlawful attempt to decisively affect the outcome of the presidential election.

    It’s the same alleged modus operandi in the 2020 campaign. Trump is vulnerable to being indicted for committing the same class of crimes in Georgia. (“I just want to find 11,780 votes!”)
    — Bruce Wolpe
  • Neuroscience is of no relevance to the problem of consciousness
    ( 6 ) What it feels like to be in a reflexive, ongoing, intentional, historicising, projective, story telling and unitary affective state. What is it like.

    I imagine much of the dispute regarding whether neuroscience and its philosophical analysis suffices for an explanation concerns whether ( 6 ) should be included in the list.
    fdrake

    What is awkwardly referred to as 'what it is like' is actually just describing 'being'. It is what 'being' refers to, when we use the term 'human being'. The human being is the subject who makes judgements, conducts scientific experiments, devises hypotheses and so on. But at the same time, the subject is never within the frame, so to speak, on the obvious grounds of not being among the objects of analysis. This was the basic thrust of Husserl's critique of naturalism, and one of the reasons phenomenology is most often cited as the basis for an alternative approach to objective analysis.

    First of all we not only analyze first person experience....Nickolasgaspar

    Mental is just a label we place on properties produced by specific physical processes in the brain.Nickolasgaspar

    You have a blind spot in respect of the issue at hand. 'Facing up to the hard problem of consciousness' is not trivial or redundant, but a statement about the inherent limitations of objective, third-person science with respect to the nature of first-person experience.

    There's some scientific validation of the fact that this really is a hard problem. As it is relevant to the topic, I'll quote at length from The neural binding problem(s), Jerome Feldman. There's a section on 'the subjective unity of perception' which begins as follows:

    There are intractable problems in all branches of science; for Neuroscience a major one is the mystery of subjective personal experience. This is one instance of the famous mind–body problem (Chalmers 1996) concerning the relation of our subjective experience (aka qualia) to neural function. Different visual features (color, size, shape, motion, etc.) are computed by largely distinct neural circuits, but we experience an integrated whole. This is closely related to the problem known as the illusion of a stable visual world (Martinez-Conde et al. 2008).

    The reference to Chalmers is to the 'facing up to the hard problem' paper. He continues:

    There is now overwhelming biological and behavioral evidence that the brain contains no stable, high-resolution, full field representation of a visual scene, even though that is what we subjectively experience (Martinez-Conde et al. 2008). The structure of the primate visual system has been mapped in detail (Kaas and Collins 2003) and there is no area that could encode this detailed information. The subjective experience is thus inconsistent with the neural circuitry. ....

    Traditionally, the Neural Binding Problem concerns instantaneous perception and does not consider integration over saccades (rapid movement of the eye between fixation points). But in both cases the hard problem is explaining why we experience the world the way we do. As is well known, current science has nothing to say about subjective (phenomenal) experience and this discrepancy between science and experience is also called the “explanatory gap” and “the hard problem” (Chalmers 1996). There is continuing effort to elucidate the neural correlates of conscious experience; these often invoke some version of temporal synchrony as discussed above.

    There is a plausible functional story for the stable world illusion. First of all, we do have a (top-down) sense of the space around us that we cannot currently see, based on memory and other sense data—primarily hearing, touch, and smell. Also, since we are heavily visual, it is adaptive to use vision as broadly as possible. Our illusion of a full field, high resolution image depends on peripheral vision—to see this, just block part of your peripheral field with one hand. Immediately, you lose the illusion that you are seeing the blocked sector. When we also consider change blindness, a simple and plausible story emerges. Our visual system (somehow) relies on the fact that the periphery is very sensitive to change. As long as no change is detected it is safe to assume that nothing is significantly altered in the parts of the visual field not currently attended.

    But this functional story tells nothing about the neural mechanisms that support this magic. What we do know is that there is no place in the brain where there could be a direct neural encoding of the illusory detailed scene (Kaas and Collins 2003).

    So, contrary to all of the journal articles that you continue to cite, the subjective unity of perception, which is a major aspect of the 'hard problem', remains unexplained, and indeed inexplicable, according to this paper, which essentially provides scientific validation for the argument made in Chalmer's original article.

    Essentially your approach is both 'scientistic' and positivist. You claim that if something cannot be made subject to scientific analysis, then it amounts to 'special pleading' or 'making excuses' or 'introducing red herrings'. But many of the philosophical objections to scientism - which is basically the belief that all that can be known, can be known by means of science - are cogent and well documented. If you spent a bit more time reading philosophy, and a bit less evangalising neuroscientific reductionism, you might begin to appreciate that.
  • Neuroscience is of no relevance to the problem of consciousness
    OK, science geeks, how do we determine whether an AI is conscious?RogueAI

    If you ran a simulation of kidney function on your cloud computer network, would you expect it to produce urine?
  • Reasons to call Jesus God
    What is in the teachings of Jesus that are not in the teaching of Jewish scriptures and works of the rabbis?Fooloso4

    Jesus often spoke with the authority of someone who had direct knowledge of God, whereas the rabbis tended to rely on the authority of the Torah and the interpretations of previous rabbis.

    He challenged the traditional interpretations of the Jewish Law, emphasizing the spirit rather than the letter. For example, Jesus taught that love for God and love for one's neighbor were the most important commandments, rather than scrupulous adherence to the Law.

    He welcomed all people, regardless of their social status or background, whereas the rabbis tended to maintain the social heirarchy.

    He emphasized the importance of a personal relationship with God, rather than relying solely on religious practices or following the teachings of religious leaders.

    Jesus performed miracles, such as healing the sick and raising the dead, which were not part of traditional Jewish teachings, and which the Rabbis didn't or couldn't do.

    Not much, apart from that.
  • Neuroscience is of no relevance to the problem of consciousness
    It's not unreasonable to assume that there is some organism in the world that has some sense that we don't.Michael

    Yeah, you sometimes wonder what it would be like to be a bat.
  • Neuroscience is of no relevance to the problem of consciousness
    How conscious are the latest famous bots ? Do they have selves ?green flag

    Let's ask:

    Q: Are you, ChatGPT, conscious? Are you a self?

    A: As an artificial intelligence language model, I am not conscious in the same way that humans are, nor do I have a sense of self. I am a collection of algorithms and data structures that process input and generate output based on that input. While I can simulate conversation and provide helpful responses, I do not have the ability to experience consciousness or self-awareness.

    Also discussed extensively in Pierre Normand's thread on GPT4.
  • [Ontology] Donald Hoffman’s denial of materialism
    He’s a cognitive scientist but as he doesn’t subscribe to materialism so it seems suggestive of idealism. I’m going to read that critical review Banno posted.
  • Where do thoughts come from? Are they eternal? Does the Mindscape really exist?
    There's definitely a Pythagorean flavour to it. But then, Russell says in HWP that the mathematical mysticism of Pythagoreanism is one of the key differentiators of the Western cultural tradition from the Asiatic. So I don't think it is something to be belittled.

    Also recall that in Platonism, knowledge of arithmetic and geometry was 'dianoia', which is higher than opinion concerning appearances, but not the highest level, which is 'noesis'.
  • [Ontology] Donald Hoffman’s denial of materialism
    Don't see it.Banno

    1vtyd0p3pzizmu0m.png


    Having said that, there's an awful lot of awfully idealist-sounding prose scattered throughout, e.g. 'Conscious realism, in direct contradiction to physicalism, takes our conscious experiences as ontologically fundamental.' If it walks like an idealist, and quacks like an idealist, then.....
  • [Ontology] Donald Hoffman’s denial of materialism
    Top of p100. The thing I'm suspicious about is that we don't know what is real outside our desktop metaphor. I thought a scientist would at least have a shot at it. A shrug just doesn't cut it.
  • [Ontology] Donald Hoffman’s denial of materialism
    He puts paid to my idealist gloss on his work in a couple of paragraphs:

    Ideas similar to MUI theory are found in various forms of idealism. But, as Searle (2004, p. 48) says:

    idealism had a prodigious influence in philosophy, literally for centuries, but as far as I can tell it has been as dead as a doornail among nearly all the philosophers whose opinions I respect, for many decades, so I will not say much about it.

    This is a simple misunderstanding. MUI theory is not idealism. It does not claim that all that exists are conscious perceptions. It claims that our conscious perceptions need not resemble the objective world, whatever its nature is.
    — Donald Hoffman
  • Where do thoughts come from? Are they eternal? Does the Mindscape really exist?
    I've learned that platonism in mathematics is regarded as highly non-PC - presumably because of its challenge to philosophical naturalism. Have a look at this article, which is in my current bookmarks list What is Math? Smithsonian Magazine

    I tracked down and bought the (expensive!) textbook of the platonist Professor mentioned in that article, James Robert Brown (although you'd probably be able to make more sense of it than me). But note this passage from the essay:

    Other scholars—especially those working in other branches of science—view Platonism with skepticism. Scientists tend to be empiricists; they imagine the universe to be made up of things we can touch and taste and so on; things we can learn about through observation and experiment. The idea of something existing “outside of space and time” makes empiricists nervous: It sounds embarrassingly like the way religious believers talk about God, and God was banished from respectable scientific discourse a long time ago.

    Platonism, as mathematician Brian Davies has put it, “has more in common with mystical religions than it does with modern science.” The fear is that if mathematicians give Plato an inch, he’ll take a mile. If the truth of mathematical statements can be confirmed just by thinking about them, then why not ethical problems, or even religious questions? Why bother with empiricism at all?

    Something which I would describe as 'inadvertantly revealing'.
  • Bannings
    Why do people create sock puppets? What are they for?Tom Storm

    Typically it's a moderator slang referring to a banned user who re-joins under a different ID - hence the whole kerfuffle in this case.

    :lol:
  • Where do thoughts come from? Are they eternal? Does the Mindscape really exist?
    So now we have 20 'translations' which contain the 'same' idea. Do we think perfect translation is possible ? Is a perfect paraphrase in the same language even possible ?green flag

    If you were dealing with a recipe, or a formula, or design blueprints, you'd better be damned sure they're accurate. (Remember that European Mars Lander that failed because an engineer confused imperial and metric?)

    This is a long-standing interest of mine. Consider this question: if you have a string of text of the type mentioned above, it can be translated, not only into other languages, but completely different symbolic systems, like binary. In such cases, what changes, and what stays the same? I think the answer is, the symbolic form changes, but the meaning is constant. Same with number: we can invent all kinds of symbolic systems and relationships, but the meaning of '7' must remain invariant. That is what *I* think 'platonism' is intuiting, although I accept it's very much a minority view.