• Atheist Dogma.
    2. Establish the scientific method with truth as the only and unquestionable value.unenlightened

    I agree, with the caveat that ‘truth’ ought to be replaced with ‘objective fact’ or ‘measurable outcome’ as the sole arbiter of reality.

    However I also think a case can be made that religious authoritarianism and sectarian conflict is what gave rise to the reaction against religion that characterised the Enlightenment. The Articles of the Royal Society, the first true scientific society, specifically prohibited fellows from involvement in questions of metaphysic which were the province of the religious. In part this was because making pronouncements on such matters could result in serious consequences. But these are all very complicated historical matters.
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    Pretty darned close. I first learned about Kant in a 1955 book, The Central Philosophy of Buddhism, T R V Murti, which draws many comparisons between Kant and the Madhyamaka (Middle Way) philosophy of Buddhism.
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    Yes, I do see the point. Kind of a placeholder for when nobody’s around, as the limerick says. But I don't think you need to introduce a spooky mind-at-large. I tried to articulate a neo-Buddhist approach to it like this.

    All of the vast amounts of data being nowadays collected about the universe by our incredibly powerful space telescopes and particle colliders is still synthesised and converted into conceptual information by scientists. And that conceptual activity remains conditioned by, and subject to, our sensory and intellectual capabilities — determined by the kinds of beings we are, and interpreted according to the attitudes and theories we hold. And we’re never outside of that web of conceptual activities — at least, not as long as we’re conscious beings. That is the sense in which the Universe exists ‘in the mind’ — not as a figment of someone’s imagination, but as a combination or synthesis of perception, conception and theory in the human mind (which is more than your mind or mine, although these are instances of it). That synthesis constitutes our experience-of-the-world. It is not an hallucination or figment of the imagination, but the mind constitutes the imaginative matrix within which all of this exists.

    What we need to grasp is that all we know of existence — whether of the rock, or the screen you're looking at, or the Universe at large — is a function of our world-making intelligence, the activity of the hominid forebrain which sets us apart from other species. That’s what ‘empirical reality’ consists of. After all, the definition of ‘empirical’ is ‘based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience.’ So, asking of the Universe ‘How does it exist outside our observation or experience of it?’ is an unanswerable question (reflected by that quoted passage from Sime above).

    So there is no need to posit a ‘supermind’ to account for it, because there’s nothing to account for. Put another way: the Universe doesn’t exist outside consciousness, but neither does it not exist, so there is no need to posit any agency to explain its supposedly ‘continued’ existence.

    Hence the apparently paradoxical statement attributed to the Buddha - 'By and large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by a polarity, that of existence and non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, "non-existence" with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, "existence" with reference to the world does not occur to one.' 1 And that is because, in the Buddhist teaching, 'self-and-world' are co-arising, existing in dependent origination, due to the principles of conditioned origination.

    Whereas, the 'polarity of existence and non-existence' shines through almost everything said about it in this thread. (I will acknowledge that it is a very subtle point to grasp.)
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    Berkeley has the mind of God to hold everything in placeTom Storm

    Yes, well what ‘everything’ do you have in mind when you say that?
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    Probably only if you accept the somewhat outlandish idea that there is a mind-at-large which we are all 'offshoots' of.Tom Storm

    Such ideas are not remote in principle from various formulations of panentheism or the kinds of cosmo-psychism found in Advaita Vedanta and is also not too far removed from the idea of the Intellect (nous) in neoplatonic philosophy.

    Also interesting to note Erwin Schrodinger's interpretation of Indian philosophy, which appear in various of his philosophical essays and are summarized by Michel Bitbol in this essay. Some excerpts therefrom:

    He declares that the basic doctrine of the Upanishads, namely what he calls the doctrine of Identity, or the thesis that allegedly separated minds are identical with one another, and that our mind is identical with the absolute basis of the world as a whole, is the only credible solution to the apparent conflict between the experienced unity of consciousness and the belief that it is dispersed in many living bodies.

    “It is by observing and thinking this way that one may suddenly experience the truth of the fundamental idea of Vedânta. It is impossible that this unity of knowledge, of feeling and of choice that you consider as YOURS was born a few years ago from nothingness. Actually, this knowledge, this feeling and this choice are, in their essence, eternal, immutable and numerically ONE in all men and in all living beings (...). The life that you are living presently is not only a fragment of the whole existence; it is in a certain sense, the WHOLE” *

    From his reading of the Advaita Vedânta, and from the basic experience he associated with it, Schrödinger inferred that the basic illusion, in our naive and scientific view of the world, is that of multiplicity. Multiplicity of minds in the living bodies, and multiplicity of things in the material world. About the first type of multiplicity, Schrödinger wrote : “what seems to be a plurality is merely a series of aspects of one thing, produced by deception (the Indian Mâyâ)”. “The doctrine of identity can claim that it is clinched by the empirical fact that consciousness is never experienced in the plural, only in the singular. Not only has none of us even experienced more than one consciousness, but there is no trace of circumstantial evidence of this even happening anywhere in the world”
    — Michel Bitbol

    As I've explained, I don't find it necessary to posit a mind-at-large while still defending an idealist view. The risk with positing such an entity is the reification or objectification of it, but it never exists as an object, it is always only 'that which knows'.

    So, it seems impossible to think that objects don't persist, and some more than others, obviously. So, I don't follow Hume in thinking that we have no reason to believe that objects persist. What makes the case even stronger is observing the behavior of the animals most familiar to us that shows that they also see the same things in the same locations as we do.Janus

    We have quite a lot in common with animals, even if we may not know what it's like to be a bat. Also notice this observation from one of our learned contributors:

    Berkeley's subjective idealism was already "analytic" in the sense that he postulated that observation and conception is tautologically equivalent to existence. Many philosophers misunderstand this principle.

    For example, they take the principle to imply that unobserved items disappear from existence. But this doesn't follow from the principle, for according to the principle it isn't false that unobserved objects exist, but nonsensical.
    sime

    I think the stumbling block you're dealing with is the idea that unobserved ceases to exist, like what G E Moore said, when he asked if the train wheels ceased to exist when the passengers were boarded. That is not what Berkeley's idealism is claiming.
  • Why Monism?
    We have big brains that are very adaptive.Mark Nyquist

    The brain is undoubtedly the most complex phenomenon known to science - but that is not the point. The point is, there are philosophical objections to the claim that brain states equate to or are the same as the content of thought. There are also issues sorrounding how to understand or explain the causal relationship between the neurological and the semantic, and also the neurological and the experiential. But it's a highly complex area of science and philosophy so I won't try and pursue it, at least without doing a whole lot more research that I don't have the time to undertake.
  • Why Monism?
    I'm thinking the best approach is brain state, a singular definition, existence in the present moment only, and physically based on neurons holding specific content.Mark Nyquist

    But that is reductive physicalism, which I'm constitutionally averse to. The argument against it is that it somehow has to posit that these neuological states are at once physical and semantic, i.e. meaning-encoding. And as meaning can be encoded in so many completely diverse ways - like, different languages, different symbolic forms, different media - then I don't see how you could ever establish a 1:1 correspondence between meaning and a specific neural configuration or 'brain state'. Not to mention the ability of the brain to completely re-organize itself to compensate for trauma or to adapt to changing circumstances. which again suggests a kind of plasticity that is not found in case of physical objects.

    With respect to Wheeler, have a read of Does the Universe Exist if We're Not Looking?. There's also a speculative article of his, Law without Law, which is available in .pdf format from various websites.
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    I am claiming that there are no disembodied minds.Fooloso4

    However, the rational intellect is capable of grasping purely abstract ideas, and even using them to construct novel inventions, such as computers.
  • Why Monism?
    in the context of Monism, the question of information is very messy.Mark Nyquist

    I don't agree with others here that information can be thought of as the raw material of existence, because the word itself is polysemic - it has many meanings - and furthermore, that the term in itself has no meaning unless you specify what information you are talking about. The idea of 'generic information' is oxymoronic - information has to specify something, otherwise how does it constitute information?

    There is a famous and often-quoted statement from a book by Norbert Weiner, one of the creators of information science, to wit 'Information is information, not matter or energy. No materialism which does not admit this can survive at the present day.' So, how does materialism respond? It adds 'information' to the list of fundamental furniture of the world. And then Claude Shannon came along with the ground-breaking theory of information which is another of the fundamental discoveries in information science. A lot of the speculation about information being fundamental is based on using Shannon's theory as an analogy (although it's often not clear as to what it is an analogy for.)

    That said, there is an interesting way in which information has been conceived as fundamental in biology, that being biosemiotics, about which one of the occasional posters here, Apokrisis, has provided much information. (See Marcello Barbieri A Short History of Biosemiotics if you're interested.)

    The Big Bang model posits nothing physical or otherwise before the first physical event.Janus

    There is a lot of documentation nowadays on the fundamental cosmological constraints that must be the case in order for a cosmos to form, and not simply dissipate into plasma or collapse into a mass of infinite density. These can't be explained in terms of consequences of the singularity as they must exist as causal constraints. I think they bear at least a suggestive similarity to a priori conditions of existence (see for example Just Six Numbers, Martin Rees.)
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    In fairness, I do not know whether or not he does.creativesoul

    The quote I provided summarises his view - which is why I provided it. I know it seems incredible, but there it is. It is the view that David Chalmer's 'hard problem' argument was set against.

    What’s that ol’ adage? If it was easy everybody’d be doing it?Mww

    Ain't that the truth :lol:
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    I reject the notion that Mary could know everything there is to know about color vision without seeing color.creativesoul

    That is the whole point of the thought-experiment. It's an argument against reductive physicalism. Compare it to this statement:

    In Consciousness Explained, I described a method, heterophenomenology, which was explicitly designed to be 'the neutral path leading from objective physical science and its insistence on the third-person point of view, to a method of phenomenological description that can (in principle) do justice to the most private and ineffable subjective experiences, while never abandoning the methodological principles of science.’ — Daniel Dennett, The Fantasy of First-Person Science

    So Dennett is arguing that it is possible, presumably, to know everything there is to know about the seeing of color, without the first-person experience. That is what the Mary's Room experiment is directed against.

    We have to recognise it as raw data to begin with, right?Tom Storm

    That distinction I made is from information science, not philosophy, although it has philosophical implications. Consider a probe gathering data about the atmosphere - the readings it collects are simply numerical values, represented as data-points - those data don't constitute information until they're aggregated into a data-set and arranged and displayed so as to convey information to the researcher or scientist. The data points are what is referred to as 'raw data'.

    Where this originated again was the role of the observer in providing perspective, and the fact that perspective, which is fundamental in establishing duration, ratio, distance and so on, is not in itself discernable in the data. The perspective is what the observer brings to bear on the objects of analysis in order to interpret it.

    I also wanted to call out this comment from a few pages back which makes an important point that I'm sure is being overlooked in this discussion:

    Berkeley's subjective idealism was already "analytic" in the sense that he postulated that observation and conception is tautologically equivalent to existence. Many philosophers misunderstand this principle.

    For example, they take the principle to imply that unobserved items disappear from existence. But this doesn't follow from the principle, for according to the principle it isn't false that unobserved objects exist, but nonsensical.
    sime
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    are you saying that the raw material is like noumena - there is something there but we don't see it as it is.Tom Storm

    There is a factual difference between 'data' and 'information'. 'Data is an individual unit that contains raw materials which do not carry any specific meaning. Information is a group of data that collectively carries a logical meaning.' In regards to the question of the role of the observer, the observer interprets the data in order to derive information. (There's a lot of discussion about 'information' as kind of the raw material of being nowadays, but in my view information does not exist as any kind of raw material, as it is always the product of interpretation.)

    We get into this deep enough, you may find your idealism was Kantian all alongMww

    Would that be so bad? Kastrup, who is the main advocate for analytical idealism, says of Schopenhauer 'I recognized in it [WWR] numerous echoes and prefigurations of ideas I had labored for a decade to bring into focus. The kinship between my own work and what I was now reading was remarkable, down to details and particulars. Here was a famous 19th century thinker who had already figured out and communicated, in a clear and cogent manner, much of the metaphysics I had been working on.'

    Generally speaking, I think Kantian idealism has almost no following on this forum, with yourself being a notable exception. So I wouldn't think exploration of the idea was a redundant exercise.

    It (i.e. Mary's room thought experiment) presupposes that it is possible to know everything there is to know about seeing color without ever having seen it. That is a false presupposition.creativesoul

    But the whole point of the thought-experiment is that you can know about color vision in a theoretical sense - rods, cones, optical nerves, wavelengths, absorption, and so on - without having seen colours. So it is trying to differentiate 'the experience of seeing color' from 'knowing what constitutes the experience of seeing color'. That's the point.
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    Data is not built, it is the raw material. What is built is interpretation, what the data means - that is the difference between data and information. And that too always implies an observer, which is what physicalism never sees. It's like someone looking for their glasses with their glasses on.

    Q: What did Heidegger mean by 'the forgetfulness of being'?

    ChatGPT: Martin Heidegger, a 20th-century German philosopher, used the term "the forgetfulness of being" (Seinsvergessenheit in German) to describe a fundamental problem in Western philosophy and culture. Heidegger believed that throughout history, there has been a tendency to overlook or forget the true nature of "being" and its significance for human existence.

    According to Heidegger, "being" refers to the basic mode of existence shared by all entities, including humans. It is not simply a passive attribute but encompasses the active process of existing and making meaning of the world (hence "being" is a verb). He argued that Western thought has traditionally focused on individual entities (things) and their characteristics, rather than investigating the broader question of being itself.

    In the philosophical tradition, Heidegger saw a shift in focus from the ancient Greeks' understanding of being as a fundamental concern to an objectively-oriented approach. This shift was was accentuated with the advent of modernity and the rise of scientific thinking. He believed that modern philosophy and science emphasized a calculative and instrumental view of reality, reducing entities to mere objects to be manipulated and controlled (and thereby forgetting the nature of being altogether. You listening, Dan?)

    Heidegger argued that this forgetfulness of being resulted in a loss of our authentic relationship to the world-and-self. Instead of recognizing our deep-rooted relatedness to the world, we treat it as a collection of resources to be exploited for our purposes. We become alienated from our own being and fail to appreciate the meaningfulness of existence. (We see everything from an ego-logical point of view.)

    Heidegger proposed a phenomenological approach that encourages engagement with the world and critical awareness of our own being-in-the-world, rather than treating everything as mere objects of study. By reflecting on existence and the way we relate to the world, we can strive to recover a more authentic and meaningful mode of being.

  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    the answer I was looking for was: you can’t find it, because it’s not there. The perspective is always outside.

    The problem of including the observer in our description of physical reality arises most insistently when it comes to the subject of quantum cosmology - the application of quantum mechanics to the universe as a whole - because, by definition, 'the universe' must include any observers.

    Andrei Linde has given a deep reason for why observers enter into quantum cosmology in a fundamental way. It has to do with the nature of time. The passage of time is not absolute; it always involves a change of one physical system relative to another, for example, how many times the hands of the clock go around relative to the rotation of the Earth. When it comes to the Universe as a whole, time looses its meaning, for there is nothing else relative to which the universe may be said to change. This 'vanishing' of time for the entire universe becomes very explicit in quantum cosmology, where the time variable simply drops out of the quantum description. It may readily be restored by considering the Universe to be separated into two subsystems: an observer with a clock, and the rest of the Universe.

    So the observer plays an absolutely crucial role in this respect. Linde expresses it graphically: 'thus we see that without introducing an observer, we have a dead universe, which does not evolve in time', and, 'we are together, the Universe and us. The moment you say the Universe exists without any observers, I cannot make any sense out of that. I cannot imagine a consistent theory of everything that ignores consciousness...in the absence of observers, our universe is dead'.
    — Paul Davies, The Goldilocks Enigma: Why is the Universe Just Right for Life, p 271
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    Ah, and follow-up question - where, in the objective data, is ‘the perspective’?
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    You win the lucky door prize (or you would, if I had one to give out :yikes: )
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    There is something that ‘the observer‘ brings to bear, without which it is meaningless to talk of distance, duration or scale. And without distance, duration or scale, it is also meaningless to talk of the existence of anything.

    Anyone?
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    There is something that the observer brings to bear, without which it is meaningless to talk of distance, duration or scale. And without those it is also meaningless to talk about the existence of objects. Single word, begins with ‘p’.
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    It is not the analysis of the firing of nerve fibers but the actual firing of nerve fibers through stimulus that could cause a third person to report feeling pain.Fooloso4

    But the point of the hard problem of consciousness argument is precisely that no amount of objective analysis can capture the first-person experience. And that can be acknowledged without denying that scientific analysis is indispensable for medical purposes, in understanding drugs to alleviate pain.

    Physicalism is not a rejection of mind.Fooloso4

    You might ponder, then, what it is that ‘eliminative materialism’ seeks to eliminate. Speaking of the organic molecule Daniel Dennett says ‘An impersonal, unreflective, robotic, mindless little scrap of molecular machinery is the ultimate basis of all the agency, and hence meaning, and hence consciousness, in the universe.’
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    Wayfarer used to make exactly the opposite argument, that because the content of a statement can be translated from one language to another -- as we might convert from imperial to metric, say -- this content must be somehow transcendent or whateverSrap Tasmaner

    That the meaning could be separated from the symbolic form, on the basis that the same number can be represented in many symbolic forms.
  • The Debt Ceiling Issue
    Still no agreement. McCarthy is making noises about ‘progress’ and ‘optimism’ but the hardliners in the GOP back-office are still holding out. I wouldn’t put it past them to drive the US into default out of pure ideological hatred and spite.
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    The recognition that a living organism can be conscious, is not reductive. To look at an organism as a whole is not reductive physicalism. To claim that consciousness must come from elsewhere because a physical explanation must be reductive is misguided.Fooloso4

    Daniel Dennett is Chalmer’s foil. He puts it like this:

    In Consciousness Explained, I described a method, heterophenomenology, which was explicitly designed to be 'the neutral path leading from objective physical science and its insistence on the third-person point of view, to a method of phenomenological description that can (in principle) do justice to the most private and ineffable subjective experiences, while never abandoning the methodological principles of science.’ — Daniel Dennett, The Fantasy of First-Person Science


    The objection to Dennett remains that no third-person account of even something as simple as pain can ‘do justice’ to the actual feeling of pain, because no amount of analysis of the firing of nerve fibres, no matter how scientifically accurate, actually constitutes ‘the feeling of pain’ (‘what it is like to be in pain’). This is why, for example, John Searle parodied Dennett’s book as ‘Consciousness Explained Away’.
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    Glad someone noticed it! As you may recall, I myself have disputed the necessity of positing mind-at-large. The way I put it is simply that, if you argue that the nature of being is constituted by mind, then the answer to the question as to whose mind, is that it is THE mind. It is what the mind does, whether yours, mine, or the next person.

    I can see absolutely no reason to think that individuation relies on conscious observers.Janus

    Charles Pinter makes his case very well. Try and imagine the Universe from the perspective of a rock. That might provide a hint.
  • Why Monism?
    I think monism can handle that but it is worth a closer look or you will end up arguing for DualismMark Nyquist

    I think some formulation of Aristotelian matter-form dualism might be quite in keeping with anything that science turns up. Remember, it doesn’t posit the ‘spooky mind-stuff’ of Descartes, instead it is the conceptual division between matter and form.

    There’s a major philosophical dispute in modern culture about the reality or otherwise of number. Invented or discovered? My view is that while artificial mathematical systems are clearly intellectual constructs, at least some of the primitive constituents of mathematics are discovered rather than invented. Likewise, there are any number of principles that can only be grasped by reasoned inference - scientific, mathematical and logical. They are not created by the mind, but can only be grasped by the mind. They are the basis of the synthetic a priori, and, contra empiricism, are grasped by faculties innate to the intellect, not derived from experience.
  • Science as Metaphysics
    Modern science is a methodology, whose primary result is knowledge.Pantagruel

    I’ve found this précis to be quite accurate:

    Modern science emerged in the seventeenth century with two fundamental ideas: planned experiments (Francis Bacon) and the mathematical representation of relations among phenomena (Galileo). This basic experimental-mathematical epistemology evolved until, in the first half of the twentieth century, it took a stringent form involving (1) a mathematical theory constituting scientific knowledge, (2) a formal operational correspondence between the theory and quantitative empirical measurements, and (3) predictions of future measurements based on the theory. The “truth” (validity) of the theory is judged based on the concordance between the predictions and the observations. While the epistemological details are subtle and require expertise relating to experimental protocol, mathematical modeling, and statistical analysis, the general notion of scientific knowledge is expressed in these three requirements.

    Science is neither rationalism nor empiricism. It includes both in a particular way. In demanding quantitative predictions of future experience, science requires formulation of mathematical models whose relations can be tested against future observations. Prediction is a product of reason, but reason grounded in the empirical. Hans Reichenbach summarizes the connection: “Observation informs us about the past and the present, reason foretells the future.”

    The demand for quantitative prediction places a burden on the scientist. Mathematical theories must be formulated and be precisely tied to empirical measurements. Of course, it would be much easier to construct rational theories to explain nature without empirical validation or to perform experiments and process data without a rigorous theoretical framework. On their own, either process may be difficult and require substantial ingenuity. The theories can involve deep mathematics, and the data may be obtained by amazing technologies and processed by massive computer algorithms. Both contribute to scientific knowledge, indeed, are necessary for knowledge concerning complex systems such as those encountered in biology. However, each on its own does not constitute a scientific theory. In a famous aphorism, Immanuel Kant stated, “Concepts without percepts are blind; percepts without concepts are empty.”
    Edward Dougherty

    Further to that, scientific method embodies a great many axioms, at least some of which are metaphysical, which, however, are not visible to science itself, as they’re not considered to be amongst the objects of scientific analysis. This is explored by philosophers of science like Michael Polanyi. According to Polanyi, science operates within a set of boundary conditions that define the limits of scientific inquiry. These boundary conditions refer to the assumptions, tacit knowledge, and frameworks that shape scientific investigations. They represent the underlying principles and presuppositions upon which scientific knowledge is built.

    Polanyi argued that these boundary conditions are not explicitly derived from scientific evidence or observation alone. Instead, they are influenced by personal and tacit knowledge, which includes subjective experiences, intuitions, and individual perspectives, and are often tacitly, but enormously, influential in what are considered to be valid questions for scientific research. In arriving at these, scientists rely on their personal judgments, commitments, and values when formulating hypotheses, designing experiments, and interpreting results.

    Furthermore, Polanyi emphasized that the boundary conditions of science are not fixed or static but can evolve over time. As scientific knowledge progresses, new discoveries, theories, and paradigms emerge, challenging existing boundary conditions and expanding the frontiers of scientific inquiry.
  • Why Monism?
    an idea makes you miserable, or afraid, or ecstatic then yes it can have consequences. But such responses are not inherent in the idea: the same idea might make one person afraid and another ecstatic, for example.Janus

    Subjective and relative.
  • Why Monism?
    But, he captured the basic idea metaphorically, by using the philosophical concept of "Form". In his Hylomorph theory he made a pertinent distinction between physical Matter and metaphysical*1 Form.Gnomon

    Isn’t Aristotle (and his teacher) one of the main reasons the ‘scientific revolution’ happened in Europe and not India or China? (Excellent undergrad essay topic.)

    Pi for example is a non-physical... It does not physically exist. A ratio of circle circumference to diameter. Basic math, and it's a manipulations of brain states like this that are what information is about. Compare that to DNA molecules that are physically fixed and obviously they are not the same thing.Mark Nyquist

    The same goes for numbers generally, and any number of other intellectual objects, such as rules, laws, conventions and logical principles. They’re all constituents of rational thought, and none of them physical (although purportedly ‘supervening’ on it whatever that is taken to mean.)
  • Why Monism?
    In any case, I don't think one's metaphysical views have any bearing on one's spiritual practiceJanus

    Unless they turn out to be fallacious. Ideas have consequences.
  • Why Monism?
    I got that. It should be added that while speculation about the next life was never encouraged, it was also understood that, should one not practice or honor the Buddhist faith, it wasn’t going to be good. Buddhism is many things, but naturalist, it isn’t.
  • Why Monism?
    It’s not a defense if common-sense realism. It’s an admonition that speculative views are not conducive to living the holy life, which is the aim of the teaching.

    https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.063.than.html
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    I have often heard philosophers, including gifted ones, assert that according to transcendental idealism 'everything exists in a mind, or in minds' or 'existence is mental'. This is a radical error. It is not what Kant or Schopenhauer were saying, nor is it what they believed. On the contrary, both of them believed that the abiding reality from which we are screened off by the ever-changing surface of our contingent and ephemeral experiences exists in itself, independent of minds and their perceptions or experiences. If reality had consisted only of perception, or only of experience, then it would presumably have been possible for us to encompass it exhaustively in perception or experience, to know it through and through, without remainder. But that is not so, and the chief clout of transcendental idealism is contained in the insight that while it is possible for us to perceive or experience or think or envisage only in categories (in the ordinary, not Kant's technical, sense) determined by our own apparatus, whatever exists cannot in itself exist in terms of those categories, because existence as such cannot be in categories at all. This must mean that in an unfathomably un-understandable way, whatever exists independently of experience must be in and throughout its whole nature different from the world of our representations. But because the world of our representations is the only world we know ‚ and the only world we can ever know ‚ it is almost irresistibly difficult for us not to take it for the world tout court, reality, what there is, the world as it is in itself. This is what all of us grow up doing, it is the commonsense view of things, and only reflection of a profound and sophisticated character can free us from it. — Bryan Magee, Schopenhauer's Philosophy
  • Why Monism?
    It's a precis of a chapter in Philosophy as a Way of Life.

    I don't think one's metaphysical views have any bearing on one's spiritual practice; on one's ability to realize equanimity, non-attachment, peace of mind or whatever you want to call it.Janus

    Nāgārjuna said that all spiritual teachings are like a stick you use to poke the fire. When the fire is well alight you can thrown the stick in with it. But only then.
  • Why Monism?
    A modern equivalent would be Cognitive Behavior Therapy: if you undertake that practice, you are not there to argue about its metaphysical or phenomenological claims, but rather to accept the set of ideas that constitute the therapy and practice in accordance with them.Janus

    Your background understanding of the nature of the world will have a bearing on your practice. If you accept the materialist attitude that the Universe is inherently unintelligible and that life is the product of chemical necessity, it's hard to see how you could incorporate any kind of stoicism as anything other than personal affect. The Stoics, while materialist, also believed that the universe was animated by the Logos. The entire milieu of ancient philosophy was spiritual in a way that can be challenging to the modern attitude.

    The passage I linked to from Hadot put it like this:

    Askesis of Desire
    For Hadot, famously, the means for the philosophical student to achieve the “complete reversal of our usual ways of looking at things” epitomized by the Sage were a series of spiritual exercises. These exercises encompassed all of those practices still associated with philosophical teaching and study: reading, listening, dialogue, inquiry, and research. However, they also included practices deliberately aimed at addressing the student’s larger way of life, and demanding daily or continuous repetition: practices of attention (prosoche), meditations (meletai), memorizations of dogmata, self-mastery (enkrateia), the therapy of the passions, the remembrance of good things, the accomplishment of duties, and the cultivation of indifference towards indifferent things (PWL 84). Hadot acknowledges his use of the term “spiritual exercises” may create anxieties, by associating philosophical practices more closely with religious devotion than typically done (Nussbaum 1996, 353-4; Cooper 2010). Hadot’s use of the adjective “spiritual” (or sometimes “existential”) indeed aims to capture how these practices, like devotional practices in the religious traditions (6a), are aimed at generating and reactivating a constant way of living and perceiving in prokopta, despite the distractions, temptations, and difficulties of life. For this reason, they call upon far more than “reason alone.” They also utilize rhetoric and imagination in order “to formulate the rule of life to ourselves in the most striking and concrete way” and aim to actively re-habituate bodily passions, impulses, and desires (as for instance, in Cynic or Stoic practices, abstinence is used to accustom followers to bear cold, heat, hunger, and other privations) (PWL 85). These practices were used in the ancient schools in the context of specific forms of interpersonal relationships: for example, the relationship between the student and a master, whose role it was to guide and assist the student in the examination of conscience, in identification and rectification of erroneous judgments and bad actions, and in the conduct of dialectical exchanges on established themes.
  • Why Monism?
    Of course not, but it has been widely observed that his ideas were precursor to the discovery of both evolutionary theory and DNA.
  • Why Monism?
    Try googling Aristotle and DNA....you may be surprised....
  • The Debt Ceiling Issue
    :up: Yes, that was an eye-opening excerpt, but not surprising. The military-industrial complex has Washington on a string.

    The thought has often occured to me, every time Ukraine fires a Patriot missile, some sales rep makes a huge commission on supplying the replacement.
  • Why Monism?
    I tried making the point earlier in this thread that the 'idea of the One' in Greek philosophy is not something that is amenable to discursive analysis. The philosophical aspirant who wishes to understand the idea of the One has to engage in the deep process of catharsis or purification in order to clear the inner obstacles to understanding. As Pierre Hadot remarks in his Philosophy as a Way of Life, this involves spiritual exercises which (for many) are uncomfortably close to religion.

    Here's worthwhile video called The Coherence of Platonism by Irish youtuber Keith Woods. It's a talk on Lloyd Gerson's book, Platonism and Naturalism. The jacket copy:

    In this broad and sweeping argument, Gerson contends that Platonism identifies philosophy with a distinct subject matter, namely, the intelligible world, and seeks to show that the Naturalist rejection of Platonism entails the elimination of a distinct subject matter for philosophy. Thus, the possibility of philosophy depends on the truth of Platonism. From Aristotle to Plotinus to Proclus, Gerson clearly links the construction of the Platonic system well beyond simply Plato's dialogues, providing strong evidence of the vast impact of Platonism on philosophy throughout history. Platonism and Naturalism concludes that attempts to seek rapprochement between Platonism and Naturalism are unstable and likely indefensible.
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    As you say, the object really exists.Fooloso4

    No object without subject. That’s my final offer. :wink:

    Pinter goes on to make the case that without subjects, there are no facts. Facts are not self-existent, they are dependent on being singled out from the background. Besides, the word ‘exist’ means to ‘be apart’, to be this as distinct from that. My view is that any meaningful notion of ‘what exists’ always implicitly includes the subject, but as the subject is not apparent in objective analysis, then it is overlooked. That is something that is brought out by phenomenology. I think it has something to do with Heidegger’s ‘forgetfulness of being’, but as I’m not a Heidegger scholar, I won’t labour that point. (It’s also the point of the Aeon essay The Blind Spot of Science.)

    Behind all this, there's the deep and difficult subject of the distinction between the objective and the transcendent, but I don't have the scholarly chops to expound on that, either. So I'll bow out for now.