• What is a strong argument against the concievability of philosophical zombies?
    What is physicalism, if not everything coming from physics?Patterner

    Exactly! Although in practice, it most often turns out to be an appeal to scientific method as the arbiter of reality.
  • Dualism and Interactionism
    Seems that you and ↪Wayfarer are looking at different parts of the same elephant : equations or experiments.Gnomon

    Well, I will defer to dfpolis judgement on the basis that he is qualified in physics and I'm not. I'm interested by his response above, that:

    Uncertainty arises from thinking of waves as particles.Dfpolis

    The question this occasions for me (and I can't think of a more subtle way of putting it) is that, if particles don't really exist, then what is everything made of? :roll:
  • What is a strong argument against the concievability of philosophical zombies?
    No, I do not mean physicalism. I'm saying that all behaviour, including language, can be predicted from physics.GrahamJ

    As far as I'm concerned, that is physicalism pure and simple. Sorry, but I don't rate Carroll as a philosopher.
  • Dualism and Interactionism
    Similarly, if you insist that a pig can fly, you will have difficulty explaining how.Dfpolis

    however that analogy has weaknesses, because electrons really can appear as particles.
  • The Mind-Created World
    Thanks! That's interesting, although the polemical point I was attempting was to challenge the idea that material objects have mind-independent reality. In that, I've been influenced more by Buddhist philosophy, which says that particulars are absent 'own-being' (svabhava) but exist dependent on causes and conditions. (There's also a Buddhist philosophy called Yogācāra which is comparable to Western idealism.) Whereas scientific empiricism tends to regard the sensory world as real in its own right. That said, I can see a (tenuous) connection with 'occasionalism'.

    I also found some correspondence in Leibniz' 'monadology'.

    The ultimate constituents of the world are individual substances (I would prefer 'subjects'), which Leibniz calls monads. These are minds, or mind- like. Each of them represents the world in some way. They include God, you, next-door’s cat, and countless much less sophisticated monads corresponding to various material features of the world. But none of them is itself, strictly speaking, material. […] For neither space nor time is an ultimate feature of reality…rather, space and time are features of how reality appears to certain of these monads. Leibniz is an idealist.”3 Concepts from Leibniz
  • What is a strong argument against the concievability of philosophical zombies?
    So you mean ‘physicalism’. That’s a different thing to physics.
  • Speculation: Eternalism and the Problem of Evil
    You may be right, I do. have trouble working out the meaning of determinism
  • What is a strong argument against the concievability of philosophical zombies?
    Wayfarer seems dubious about the science.GrahamJ

    Pardon me - what science am I dubious about? "Because....physics" is not much to go on.
  • Why is alcohol so deeply rooted in our society?
    Imbibing, as I read this, so can’t credibly disagree. ‘Reckless Brewing’, one of the hundreds of ‘craft breweries’ now operating in this part of the world.
  • Why is alcohol so deeply rooted in our society?
    I struggle to understand why it's a struggle to understand. Even elephants and monkeys were said to seek out and eat fermented fruit for its intoxicating powers. (It's said that it is wise to avoid an intoxicated elephant.) I guess I've regularly imbibed most of my life, and the reason is very simple - it induces a feeling of relaxation, warmth and ease which rubs off a lot of the sharp edges of the day-to-day.

    Saying that, I'm also guiltily aware that if one is properly 'tuned up' - that is, physical fit and mentally calm - then it is likely the need for such artificial aides to well-being will correspondingly be reduced.

    That's the theory, anyway.
  • Speculation: Eternalism and the Problem of Evil
    The argument against free will always seems to undermine the point of philosophical dialogue. I mean, if one’s opinions are determined prior to discussion, how could any act of rational persuasion prevail? Nobody could ever change their mind about anything, if it were true.

    this future 'you' will have no conscious connection with the present you whatsoever.Janus

    But that being will nevertheless be the subject of experience, a conscious agent.

    One of the minor epiphanies that struck me was when I studied prehistoric anthropology. I suddenly had a sense of how long our ancestors had lived for those many thousands of generations, often under painful and harsh conditions, obviously with no modern medicine or life comforts. I realised one day, those people were me - me with my struggles, joys, children, and the rest. Obviously I’ll never know who they are - I know my family tree back to the mid 1800’s - but it’s not hard to imagine that they were men just like myself, carrying the torch, so to speak. (I started to wonder if this is where ancestor worship originated.)

    Similarly, that when I was born into this life, I did not (contra Locke) arrive a tabula rasa. I inherited many characteristics, I was born into a situation, and I also embody various archetypes and proclivities, which have shaped the life I’ve lived in the (now) 70 years since. When I die, and that’s obviously not that far off any more, there’ll be one child born to carry on.
  • Speculation: Eternalism and the Problem of Evil
    I cannot make rational sense of the ideaJanus

    I get that. I can’t make rational sense of the obverse, although I’d never seek to persuade you or anyone else.

    Kastrup also holds that free will is an illusion.Janus

    Not according to this article

    the question of free will boils down to one of metaphysics: are our felt volitional states reducible to something outside and independent of consciousness? If so, there cannot be free will, for we can only identify with contents of consciousness. But if, instead, neurophysiology is merely how our felt volitional states present themselves to observation from an outside perspective—that is, if neurophysiology is merely the image of conscious willing, not its cause or source—then we do have free will; for in the latter case, our choices are determined by volitional states we intuitively regard as expressions of ourselves.
  • Dualism and Interactionism
    It’s probably more that I fail to see the point of the question. But if you mean, is uncertainty a consequence of the lack of knowledge of the initial conditions, I think Brian Greene answers that in the negative. If you don’t think so, maybe you might re-phrase it.
  • Dualism and Interactionism
    I'm not an experimental physicist, myself, but I trust the sources I've referenced. Besides, the fact of uncertainty is well-established - it's the implications of it that are contested.
  • Dualism and Interactionism
    Is the determinism replaced, or is it simply the case that you can't know the initial conditions of a system with perfect precision?wonderer1

    It's controversial but as conveyed in both those references I gave, it is non-deterministic - uncertainty is real. That is why for example you have the wave-particle duality - in some contexts, a wave is observed, in other contexts, a particle. Whether it's 'really' a wave or 'really' a particle is impossible to ascertain.

    From Brian Greene, Fabric of the Cosmos, in relation to a discussion of uncertainty and the measurement problem, and whether that problem arises because of interfering with the object:

    The explanation of uncertainty as arising through the unavoidable disturbance caused by the measurement process has provided physicists with a useful intuitive guide… . However, it can also be misleading. It may give the impression that uncertainty arises only when we lumbering experimenters meddle with things. This is not true. Uncertainty is built into the wave structure of quantum mechanics and exists whether or not we carry out some clumsy measurement. As an example, take a look at a particularly simple probability wave for a particle, the analog of a gently rolling ocean wave, shown in Figure 4.6.

    Since the peaks are all uniformly moving to the right, you might guess that this wave describes a particle moving with the velocity of the wave peaks; experiments confirm that supposition. But where is the particle? Since the wave is uniformly spread throughout space, there is no way for us to say that the electron is here or there. When measured, it literally could be found anywhere. So while we know precisely how fast the particle is moving, there is huge uncertainty about its position. And as you see, this conclusion does not depend on our disturbing the particle. We never touched it. Instead, it relies on a basic feature of waves: they can be spreak out.
    Brian Greene, The Fabric of the Cosmos

    zq68hkeecxmv8kjp.png
    Fig 4.6
  • Dualism and Interactionism
    The wave equations of quantum theory are well confirmed, and they are deterministic.Dfpolis

    Confirmed, yes, but 'deterministic' is questionable. Quantum mechanics is not a deterministic theory in the classical sense. In classical physics, if you know the initial conditions of a system with perfect precision, you can predict its future state with certainty. In quantum mechanics, this determinism is replaced by inherent probabilistic behavior. The Schrödinger equation describes the time evolution of a quantum system. It gives the probability distribution of where a particle is likely to be found at a given time. The outcome of measurements in quantum mechanics is probabilistic, meaning that you can only predict the probability of obtaining a particular measurement result, not the specific outcome for a single measurement (per Quantum (Manjit Kumar) and Uncertainty (David Lindley)).
  • Dualism and Interactionism
    It is an accepted fact that all unobserved processes are deterministicDfpolis

    Being determined by what, exactly? Isn't the whole point of uncertainty that it's.....uncertain?
  • What is a strong argument against the concievability of philosophical zombies?
    If not, the p-zombie would 'say the things it would have to say to make us think it was conscious' because ... physics.GrahamJ

    It would have to master semantics and syntax, among other things. How do you derive them from physics?
  • Speculation: Eternalism and the Problem of Evil
    What I am curious about is why people care about it, since it obviously cannot be personal survival of death. Is it an irrational fear of annihilation?Janus

    I have my reasons, and I started writing them out, but it's a bit personal. Suffice to say that I don't believe birth is an absolute beginning, or death an absolute end; a life overflows those bookends. And I think annihilation is considerably less frightening than the alternatives - it's comforting, in a way, because it zeroes out anything you might have done in your life. I mean, if you're a mass-shooter who kills a number of people then yourself, you would presumably believe that that act ends it all. If it turns out not to, then....

    During Buddhist Studies, I studied the longest sutta in the early Buddhist texts, 'the Net of Views'. It describes all the various views considered to be fallacious by the Buddha. About half are 'eternalist' views - theories about continuing to exist in future lives. The other half are nihilistic views, that death is an absolute end and that human life arises as a consequence of chance. The translator, Bhikkhu Bodhi, remarked that this kind of view is characteristic of modern culture, something which is believed to be 'proven by science'. Ultimately, both views (or dispositions) derive from either the desire to continue to be (eternalism) or the desire not to exist (nihilism. In other words, they're motivated by either greed or aversion. Although this is drastically condensed and the text itself is long and detailed.)

    I'm considering the idea - I've discussed this with Schopenhauer1 - that we're condemned to existence, in one realm or another. We don't get a choice about it because we haven't understood what is the causal factor behind all of it. So 'ending it all' would not, actually, 'end it all'. I suppose that is the Buddhist view in a nutshell, not that I want to claim any special insight into that or mastery of it.
  • Speculation: Eternalism and the Problem of Evil
    However, Stevenson’s work has been severely critiqued for its methodological flaws.IEP Immortality

    I'm familiar with the efforts to debunk Stevenson, but many of them clearly have their own agenda.

    The background to Stevenson's research was that a chair was endowed at the University of Virginia by Chester Carlson, who had made his fortune by inventing xerography. His wife was a Theosophist with interest in spiritual philosophy (they also helped fund one of the early Zen centers.) Stevenson occupied that chair for around 30 years and during that time documented thousands of cases. (The same department at the University of Virginia - the Division of Perceptual Studies - has become a world-leading 'centre for woo'. Later books including Irreducible Mind and Beyond Physicalism.)

    I've read the Wikipedia entry on Stevenson, but again, I think there's something of a bias on Wikipedia against the paranormal (and I say this as a Wikipedia contributor and subscriber). There's a well-known group Guerilla Sceptics who make it their business to throw shade at entries on the paranormal (they were heavily involved in the controversy over Rupert Sheldrake's deleted TED talks.) Consequently a reading of the Wikipedia article leads to the view that Stevenson's entire corpus can be dismisses as 'shoddy research', but having read some alternative accounts, I don't necessarily buy that conclusion.

    The overarching question of the dialogue is what will happen to Socrates when he dies.Fooloso4

    Perhaps an analogy can be drawn by comparision with the way stem cells individuate in the growth of the embroyo. Any developing embroyo comprises hundreds of millions of separate cells, yet as development occurs, the individual cells are all integrated into a single organism. Similarly a human person comprises many separate parts that nevertheless possess functional unity. There seems to be such a holistic principle at work on many levels, biological and psychological. I think that at least deflates the question of 'how many Socrates there are'. //I think that squares with the ancient idea of the soul as 'the principle of unity' as distinct from 'an entity'.//

    Thanks for that, but I've decided not to try and assimilate Spinoza again. The Ethics reads like a 250 page insurance contract. After yesterday's conversation I did rather impulsively buy the kindle edition of the Claire Carlisle book Spinoza's Religion so will persist with reading that.
  • Speculation: Eternalism and the Problem of Evil
    Reincarnation involves something moving from one body to the next - being clear as to the nature of that something is central.Banno

    That’s the issue - a medium by which memory and experience is transmitted. (Incidentally I also noted that the one book I read on it shows that most of the remembered previous lives are not of Napoleon or Julius Caesar but ordinary people with unremarkable lives.)
  • Artificial intelligence
    I've never even visited the ChatGPT website.baker

    Perhaps you ought to. As for being ‘a luxury’, it’s actually available for free, although there are also subscription models.
  • Speculation: Eternalism and the Problem of Evil
    it seems reasonable to ask what it is that is reincarnatedBanno

    I’m a bit unclear as to why this question keeps being asked. The studies of children recalling past lives observe that children are born who apparently remember details of their past lives - where they lived, their names, parents names, and so on, details which were then cross-checked against documentary and other evidence. There were also numerous cases where physical deformities and birthmarks corresponding to sites of past-life trauma were observed. So the answer to ‘what is born’ is ‘a child with past life memories and sometimes physical marks’. Doesn’t that answer the question?
  • Dualism and Interactionism
    that waves cannot be described simply by space and time.
    — Metaphysician Undercover
    I do not say "by," but "in" space and time.
    Dfpolis

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I’ve noticed that there is a peculiar fact about the interference patterns observed in the double slit experiment. I asked this question on Physics Forum also.

    One of the interesting facts about the double-slit experiment is that the interference pattern that appears on the screen doesn't seem to be affected by the rate at which electrons are fired through the slits. So, even if particles are fired one at a time, an interference pattern still occurs, which doesn't vary with the rate at which they're fired, at least up to a certain point. This means that if time ( where time = rate of firing) is not a factor in the formation of the distribution pattern, which implies that time is not a variable in the generation of the interference pattern.

    The outcome of the experiment, the interference pattern, is a result of the quantum probabilistic nature and the interaction of particles with the double slits, but it does not depend on the specific timing or rate at which individual particles are fired. In that sense, the outcome can be considered independently of the specific time parameters of the experiment. It's a manifestation of the inherent probabilistic behavior of quantum particles. In that sense, the wave function is not a function of time, in a way that is very different from physical waves, which are obviously time-dependent.

    Does that make sense?
  • Artificial intelligence
    Your accusations made me feel like shit and made me doubt myself.baker

    Then don't make silly comments! If you took the time to read what I wrote and at the linked dialogue with ChatGPT, I don't see why you would say it is a waste of time. AI is a new frontier in technology and it can be used for all kinds of things. Sure, not all of them will be good things, but I use it to harvest ideas, look up references, suggest recipes, provide feedback on fiction writing, and other things which I don't see as 'a waste of time'.

    And I don't think I accused you of trolling. You responded to an OP I created on idealist philosophy with the accusation that I wanted to enjoy the fruits of Buddhism without paying any dues, or something along those lines. To which I said, 'don't be patronising'. I think you can be a very insightful and smart contributor but I think sometimes you tend to shoot first and ask question later, if you know what I mean.
  • Artificial intelligence
    They apparently have enough time to make pointless comments on internet fora.
  • What is a strong argument against the concievability of philosophical zombies?
    I do not find the idea conceivable.Patterner

    I agree with you, and would have said exactly the same, although I've recently come to understand it from a different perspective. In practical terms, I don't expect that such an artificial being could currently exist, but it's not a logical impossibility. The point of it is that, should there be a being entity which seems to have a subjective inner existence, but is just an exquisitely-tuned organic-looking robot, that could respond to questions like 'how do you feel?' with plausible answers, there would be no empirical way to ascertain whether it really was a subject of experience. The point being that the nature of subjectivity is not something that can be empirically ascertained.
  • Speculation: Eternalism and the Problem of Evil
    It's the fact that I'm not persuaded by your pathological aversion to the extraordinarily wide range of things you tar with the brush of woo. But, do carry on.
  • Speculation: Eternalism and the Problem of Evil
    It is common knowledge that there are contested readings of Spinoza. There are secularist, naturalistic interpretations on one side and mystical interpretations of the "God intoxicated man" on the other. You hold to the former intepretation, but it is contested. And all of which is beside the point of the OP in the first place, and the last I'll say about it.
  • Speculation: Eternalism and the Problem of Evil
    Remember where discussion of Spinoza started in this thread to which I responded, 'As I understand it, Spinoza said that the liberated soul had no reason to fear death and no fear of the afterlife, and I'm sure in that, he was in perfect accord with both the Hindu and Buddhist understanding of the matter.' I'll return to that, as it was the point at issue in respect of this OP.
  • Speculation: Eternalism and the Problem of Evil
    Take Janus's recommendation, Wayf, and actually (re)read Spinoza on his own anti-transcendent terms.180 Proof

    I told you, I have studied Ethics, at university level, a long time ago, but I know full well how easy it is to transgress the anti-religious taboo that exists on this forum, so I guess I'll just have to live with that, somehow.
  • Speculation: Eternalism and the Problem of Evil
    The former is created nature, transient nature and the latter is the eternal active creative power which brings about created nature.Janus

    ‘Natura naturans ‘ - the divine, infinite ‘substance’ that continuously brings about and sustains the existence of natura naturata. It is the underlying, unchanging source of everything in the world.

    In Spinoza's philosophy, these concepts are essential components of his monism, where everything is ultimately one substance (God or Nature) with two different aspects. Natura naturata represents the changing, finite world of effects, while natura naturans represents the unchanging, infinite cause or source of those effects. Although here I have difficulty with the use of the word 'substance', as it's too easy to interpret as being a kind of material substrate. In Spinoza's philosophy, "substantia" refers to a singular, infinite, and self-sustaining reality that encompasses all of existence. It is more akin to what we might call "reality" or "the ground of being" rather than the everyday sense of "substance" as a physical or material thing. (I can’t see how it is, for instance, compatible with contemporary scientific naturalism.)

    I learned about a current title on Spinoza, 'Spinoza's Religion', by Claire Carlisle, which I've started on. From one of the Amazon reviews of that book:

    Carlisle tries to work between the secularist, naturalistic interpretation on one hand in the romantic picture of the "God intoxicated man" on the other. Her chief insight is that readers tend to rely too heavily and uncritically on Spinoza's phrase "God or Nature" in understanding his thought. Relying solely on this phrase "God or Nature" encourages interpretations of Spinoza as a naturalist or as a pantheist. But that phrase needs to be read in light of a more fundamental, developed teaching of Spinoza which Carlisle finds in "Being-in-God" which she describes as "the fundamental tenet of Spinoza's thought". It is found at first in Part One, proposition 15 of the "Ethics", "Whatever is, is in God" and is referred to and expounded upon by Spinoza repeatedly throughout the work. Much of Carlisle's reading of Spinoza is based upon her understanding this proposition and following it through the various parts of the "Ethics".

    Expanding upon "Being-in-God, Carlisle argues that Spinoza's thought is more akin to panentheism than to either naturalism or pantheism. Reality, for Spinoza. consists of the single substance and of modes, which are dependent upon substance. The dependent, partial modes, including human beings, do not exhaust substance but are "in" it or "participate in" it. ...

    The focus is on an ultimately non-dualistic understanding of the relationship between persons and God. And she rejects what she understands as modernity's and secularism's attempts to objectify religion by defining it in terms of creeds. She argues that Spinoza held to instead a concept of religion more akin to the ancient and medieval concepts of virtue; it is internalized and individual and shows in one's acceptance of oneself and lovingkindness towards others. Carlisle sees religion and philosophy as practiced by Spinoza not as a doctrine but as a way of life. Spinoza devoted his life and his gifts to his search for wisdom and understanding. It is this focus and commitment in living a human life that constitutes the religious search.

    I've read the intro and just now shelled for the remainder.

    What is the point of quoting Maritain?Janus

    The point is, not who Jacques Maritain is, or the fact that he's Catholic, but what it says about nature and naturalism.
  • Speculation: Eternalism and the Problem of Evil
    Every progress in evolution is dearly paid for; miscarried attempts, merciless struggle everywhere. The more detailed our knowledge of nature becomes, the more we see, together with the element of generosity and progression which radiates from being, the law of degradation, the powers of destruction and death, the implacable voracity which are also inherent in the world of matter. And when it comes to man, surrounded and invaded as he is by a host of warping forces, psychology and anthropology are but an account of the fact that, while being essentially superior to them, he is at the same time the most unfortunate of animals. So it is that when its vision of the world is enlightened by science, the intellect which religious faith perfects realises still better that nature, however good in its own order, does not suffice, and that if the deepest hopes of mankind are not destined to turn to mockery, it is because a God-given energy better than nature is at work in us. — Jacques Maritain
  • Speculation: Eternalism and the Problem of Evil
    Is nature not eternal?Janus

    Definitely not. Everything in nature, every natural phenomenon, is transitory and subject to decay. Nowadays nature as worshipped as a stand-in for 'the unconditioned' but that is because our culture has systematically destroyed any real metaphysic of the unconditioned.

    I provided my definition of the mystical above.
  • Implications of Darwinian Theory
    Well, gosh, thanks Gnomon, very kind of you to say so.
  • Speculation: Eternalism and the Problem of Evil
    I don't know where you got the above passage,Janus

    The Project Gutenberg edition of On the Improvement of the Understanding starts with this paragraph

    (1) After experience had taught me that all the usual surroundings of social life are vain and futile; seeing that none of the objects of my fears contained in themselves anything either good or bad, except in so far as the mind is affected by them, I finally resolved to inquire whether there might be some real good having power to communicate itself, which would affect the mind singly, to the exclusion of all else: whether, in fact, there might be anything of which the discovery and attainment would enable me to enjoy continuous, supreme, and unending happiness. ....

    ...
    [10] (1) But love towards a thing eternal and infinite feeds the mind wholly with joy, and is itself unmingled with any sadness, wherefore it is greatly to be desired and sought for with all our strength. .

    So how that translates to 'accepting things as they are' escapes me. What is 'a thing eternal an infinite' that 'feeds the mind wholly with joy'? There is a definite sense of turning away from, renouncing, the transitory, and contemplating the eternal.

    Spinoza was a mystic.
    — Wayfarer
    And this means what?
    180 Proof

    It means abandonment of the transitory and awakening to what is always so, the eternal, beyond the vicissitudes. What is 'ecstatic'? It means 'ex' (outside of) 'stasis' (the normal state). There is the theme of ecstatic union - the fact that he designates it as 'God or nature' does not, in my view, entail that Spinoza was a naturalist in the sense of modern empiricism, restricting knowledge to what can be validated by sensory data. There are books which explore the links between Spinoza, Kabbalistic mysticism and other like sources.
  • Speculation: Eternalism and the Problem of Evil
    If you want to understand Spinoza you need to actually read him.Janus

    To set the record straight, I did a semester on Spinoza's Ethics, and wrote a term paper on it, which was passed. I have forgotten a lot of it, but I don't agree with the secularist reading of it. Spinoza was a mystic. I disagree with both of you on that, and I'll leave it there.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    i think, when push comes to shove, which is likely to be 2024, when he is actually convicted and facing jail (pending all the appeals), that he might well completely loose it and have to be, ahem, 'looked after'. He seems on the edge of mental competence a lot of the time as it is. (The fact that he keeps being referred to as 'the Republican front-runner' is like a hybrid of a joke and a nightmare.)
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    Did you see that Stable Genius had a live revelation, on the podium, speaking to a convention audience? He realised that the world 'us' - as in, you and me, first person plural participle - is the same spelling as US - United States! Isn't that astonishing! He realised that! But of course, the press aren't interested in such genius insights, they probably won't even report it. Stupid fake media.