• Transwomen are women. Transmen are men. True or false?
    The majority of trans people are not victims of anything but the unfortunate situation of having a mental illness. — AmadeusD


    I'd like to see a direct response to this from Philosophim, @I like sushi, @Outlander, @ProtagoranSocratist, and @Jamal as well as @Janus.

    For my part, I see Amadeus as hiding his prejudices in medical language.     — Banno

    Since you asked. I think the following reply is quite reasonable:

    This is an overreaction Banno. There is a fine line between mental illness and mental health issue. Technically gender dysphoria, which is what is what transition seeks to treat, is no longer classified under 'mental illness' in the DSM V. Its now a mental health condition like depression. We need to really be careful that we're not using 'prejudices' in a boy who cried wolf scenario or a cudgel in an attempt to silence honest discussion. — Philosophim

    I mean, just look at it from a layperson's perspective. Life is hard. People are cruel. Most adults are basically just large, wrinkled children. Mentally and morally. Freedom inherently means living an unexamined life, until one chooses (and why would someone go through the effort when lowbrow primal pleasures are so easily and readily available) to. We bully people. Sometimes without any actual intention to harm, sometimes with that being the one and only purpose (sometimes for advancement of survival and gain of resources, sometimes just for sheer entertainment, which is advancement of survival per quality of life/emotional homeostasis, despite the fact it being deplorable). Historically, women are considered weaker, smaller, "fairer" now that intelligent people have managed to survive long enough amongst the presence of mindless brutes. So, it's common for a dominant gender (currently the male gender, hence the claims of patriarchy) to express that dominance in the form of bullying (whether lighthearted or truly pointed as far as harmful intention) to other people, typically weaker or smaller persons. This makes these persons who experience constant bullying (which is actually just a buzzword for what's really happening, constant prodding of the "flight or fight" response in intelligent beings, which if done without rest can cause mental re-wiring ie. detriment or "mental illness" colloquially) to question if they "belong" (see ostracization) and so naturally makes the mind consider if they are "not like others" (since it's a common verbatim to insult a person by comparing them to another gender, per systems of hierarchy, this is what is questioned and leads people victimized by ostracization to be the first thing they "re-consider" about themself).

    This is all basic, codified science. Nothing new or strange here. So, that aside. Back to a simplified laypersons view. If you're born a human (no matter what sex) and you look at a dog and start thinking "oh maybe I'm a dog". That's weird. It's irrational. It's not supported by anything observable, logical, medical, or scientific. Ergo, a delusion. It's reasonably and rational perceived as a form of unwellness. Now if you happened to take a step further and say, cut the ears off a dog and staple it to your temples because you truly insist you were "supposed" to have been a dog and this is how you have to go through life. That just makes you look violent and crazy. We are physical beings who require our bodies to maintain their integrity otherwise we die. That's why horror movies are so disturbing. It's removing or altering (or destroying) the flesh we were born into. It's not fair or reasonable to act like people who find it "odd" (or outright disturbing and explicitly indicative of mental illness) are guilty of some sort intentional or specifically non-organic, non-biologically "understandable" sentiment or ideology. Can you see the validity and truth of that last sentence, at least?

    There are over 6,000 species of mammals that exist or have existed. None of them are inherently intersex. It's just not a function that mammals evolved. It's an aberration. So, someone thinking they for some reason are the first mammal out of billions of others, who show NO physical signs of "being intersex", was "supposed to have been the opposite sex" is not rational. Like a child imagining themself as a dinosaur or something they admire or wish to be. It's just not supported by facts. That makes it a mental aberration. That's a fact. Whether that aberration amounts to the level of detriment severe enough to be classified as an illness is not something I feel a need to comment on.
  • A quandary: How do we know there isn’t anything beyond our reality?
    Sure, why not? — frank

    Maybe @Metaphysician Undercover's point is to understand something, real or not, you have to have an abstraction of it. The philosopher's argument being the point of their craft: "to show the person they are a fly in a bottle, without realizing the nature of their containment, they can't ever escape from it." For example.

    Abstractions or concepts are required to know what it is you're interacting with. If you have no understanding of the concept of, say, a solar eclipse, and have never seen one before, you might reasonably and rationally assume the world is ending or some cataclysmic celestial event is otherwise occurring if observed for the first time. It doesn't make a thing more real or less real, it simply reasonably (but not necessarily accurately) defines and describes something that you would otherwise either not be aware of or think to be something that it's not.
  • A quandary: How do we know there isn’t anything beyond our reality?
    Speak for yourself. I don't see why anyone would ever assume that there is someone who knows all there is to know. Since knowledge varies from one person to another, it's very counterintuitive to think that there would be one person who knows everything. Since much knowledge is context dependent wouldn't this require someone who is everywhere, all the time? — Metaphysician Undercover

    All I was trying to say is, even a child can come across "true knowledge"—he or she simply might be "incapable of knowing (processing it?)" at the time (but might, given enough time, thus illustrating the concept of the unknowable becoming knowable, at least in one valid manner of thinking). Adults too. You're a mortal being, aren't you? Yes? That means time is relevant as far as how one reasonably perceives things in the world we live. Is that ice bridge solid enough to walk on? At that moment it is, so we might choose to. Do we instead go by some "set apart" (albeit deterministically equal) reality that since it will melt in, who knows, a century from now we consider it water and not able to traverse? No, it's either there or not there based on the circumstance of my present being. Let "traversable" represent "knowable."

    Since knowledge is the property of knowers, are you proposing God to support the idea of knowledge which is unknowable to current human beings? — Metaphysician Undercover

    Perhaps information or the even the general "concept of understanding" (whether ever actually attained or achieved by anyone ie. the would-be "knower") is what my statement was focused on. I'm not proposing anything only reiterating the fact that since human beings (or intelligent life itself) regularly go from periods of light and dark respectively (in terms of knowledge and understanding) there are reasonable arguments to be made in support of the idea of some "knowledge" being "unknowable". If not due to a given circumstance (observable reality) that may or may not change within the given period of a person's life (applicable period of "knowing" or "being a knower").

    As far as some "unknowable knowledge" that the human mind is somehow not capable of processing (knowing), say the full digits of Pi, for example (but hypothetically might in the future, since we do not know the future). Well, that's one example it would seem. Or is it? Seems easy to get caught up in semantics with this one.
  • A quandary: How do we know there isn’t anything beyond our reality?
    What is a true statement that's beyond our knowledge? — Metaphysician Undercover

    You've never accidentally walked into a 9th grade math class (one with an equation on the board) by mistake when you were in 5th grade? :wink:

    An important distinction is, much like a child, we assume either we—or someone we know—knows all there is to know (that is to say, can simply be "exposed" to such knowledge, such as walking into a room where it's written and automatically understand it in full depth and detail as others do; this is merely the ego at work, the driving force and cause of all human suffering). There, of course, per nature of the topic is the idea of an "unknowable" knowledge. But that concept rests largely on the one who perceives it. If humans evolved, we now possess knowledge those before us were incapable of knowing (ergo, the "unknowable" knowledge). Yet, it became knowable. So, one might reasonably hold the belief that unless one can predict or perceive the future, there is a concept of "unknowable knowledge" that may change and become knowable.

    Not unlike how—not that long ago—only a madman would consider braving the seas in search of nourishment or freedom. Yet now even the average person does so for recreation via the form of an affordable cruise. Something to think about. Perhaps, with any hope, to calm your turbulent mind. :smile:
  • Compressed Language versus Mentalese
    But first you'd have to show that languages were simpler in the past, and I don't think that's supported by historical linguistics. — Jamal

    Isn't that supported by basic evolution? Even common layperson knowledge (caveman grunts, etc.)? A child can barely speak, but typically, gains the ability to as most every person can today. Isn't this a parallel to evolution of human society?

    Sure, that's not to say some societies or groups happened to evolve their language skills "quicker", at least in relative comparison to others who may have existed somewhere at the time. Perhaps those in the immediate past, who were forced to suffer and toil, thus bringing about the knowledge and experience we now take for granted as "common sense", may have been more advanced and then other societies kind of, you know, "simplified things" the way a computer used to take up the entire size of a room yet can now fit on a person's wrist and perform equal and even greater function, yes.

    But I don't think historical linguistics is in the region of what Hanover is really getting at — Jamal

    What is your take on his intention, then? Don't worry, he likely won't be offended if you're way off course. :razz:
  • Compressed Language versus Mentalese
    ↪Hanover


    Could it be that times (perhaps even minds) were simpler as recent as 200 years ago before any sort of recognizable modern engine, let alone technology? Perhaps compounded by a harsher, constant "fight or die" environment before man gained mastery over said environment allowing for more time to think and "mentally evolve", per se? :chin:

    Perhaps it depends on the climate of the environment as well. More time indoors versus moving around for survival (or perhaps a harsh winter climate that required long periods inside with one's community in a confined place with little to do) would probably lead to a sophistication in language. Or would it?

    Ergo, language was simpler because times were simpler. There just wasn't much to talk about or perhaps even not much time to idly ponder the things the average person does today.
  • Transwomen are women. Transmen are men. True or false?
    it is a very obvious strawman to interpret "bats are flying mammals" to mean "metal clubs are flying mammals". — Michael

    Of course, "obvious" means easily or rather, expected to be perceived. Perception is a phenomenon of experience meets knowledge. We assume the average person in one's given society is supposed to know a certain word has multiple meanings. That's rational. But not guaranteed.

    A person who lives in a territory where bats don't exist yet has experience with baseball as a recreational past-time sport might very well know one definition and not the other. Again, we rely on our own experience as if every person on Earth is supposed to, and those who don't, seemingly don't count. That's neither fair nor rational.
  • Transwomen are women. Transmen are men. True or false?
    to normalize behavior no person of any sex or society should tolerate, let alone normalize — Outlander


    What behaviour are you referring to here?     — Jamal

    Otherwise, I still have no idea what you meant by "behavior no person of any sex or society should tolerate." — Jamal

    It's not really relevant in comparison to the discussion.

    Other than it's an attempted (and in some societies, successful) moral hijacking of social norms and words that describe social norms to include things behaviors and attitudes that were once shamed and ridiculed. For example, when someone is hesitant to do something for clearly logical reasons, one might choose to belittle him and question his "manhood" so as to ironically make him do things at the behest of another person, which actually makes him like a "woman" according to historic and many modern standards. It's the jarring disconnect that people don't realize how responding to comments of the sort in fact make them less than men but like children following the behests of others.

    It's social engineering. Effectively making any person do things they otherwise wouldn't do, generally immoral, dangerous, or destructive things by suggesting if they don't they're not "normal" or "not a man" or "not a woman" or whatever it is they're supposed to "be like" per social opinion. Peer pressure. Fall of the monarchy. Rise of the darkness that is unrefined human nature.

    Specifically, I'm referring to how drastic and pronounced it's become to normalize behavior that was historically shamed and punished by simple phrases such as "be a man", thus showing how far the moral rot of many modern societies has advanced. It's a passing social commentary on the state of morality, more so than anything else. But never you mind. It's being handled.

    For what it's worth, the OP's substantive claim is this:

    Most of the world does not view man and woman by gender, but by sex, so the default goes to sex. — Philosophim


    Most of those who disagree with the OP therefore disagree with this claim or with its significance.     — Jamal

    Ah, yes. Back on track. This stands to reason since, per definition of the OP, "gender" is a reference to cultural norms. How many cultures are there on Earth? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Millions, perhaps, counting sub-cultures and small civilizations, perhaps unheard of? Sure. So, one may argue it would simply be—not just difficult or inaccurate—but impossible to account for something that varies from social sphere to social sphere ("social expectation of behavior" ie. gender, if you define it as such) in favor of something absolute and constant (sex).

    That much is understandable. Isn't it? :chin:

    Edit: Your money is pounds. My money is dollars. I wouldn't go around to another person in another country talking about "dollars", especially if I know their money is or might be different. I would say what is constant and universal: "money." So, yes, sometimes more broader, universal terms are to be favored over what one is comfortable with and that is generally accurate (to one's particular understanding).
  • Transwomen are women. Transmen are men. True or false?
    What behaviour are you referring to here? — Jamal

    Anything that shouldn't be normalized. In a society that tolerates and encourages slavery, for example, it might be "normal gender behavior" for males to engage and casually talk about such acts in a mocking, friendly way. That would mean, at least to me, the idea of "gender" being just a word to describe "what other people of your sex expect from you" doesn't seem to be exactly a well of depth worth discussing. It's just a benchmark or expectation of a given society. Relevant only to that society as long as that particular society exists. I just don't see how that's particularly fruitful as far as philosophical debate goes. Perhaps it's just over my head. :confused:

    The reason I posted was to try and understand the impasse between OP and @Banno. Both smart people, so, it just makes me wonder exactly what the other person isn't "buying" or otherwise not seeing eye to eye is. I haven't read every single post from the beginning, so I merely offered my preliminarily assessment: "Some people have looser definitions of a word than others, so perhaps that's what the current impasse is rooted in." Just wanted to get OP's opinion on my opinion, I suppose. :smile:

    For the sake of advancing the discussion and ensuring no one party is hung up on something trivial, of course.
  • Transwomen are women. Transmen are men. True or false?
    Seems like as good a time as any to reset the topic. :smile:

    That is, so people can understand what the OP and the most recent poster they engaged with productively failed to instill in one another. Certainly this happened as both are intelligent people who fail to see eye to eye.

    But first, this concerns me (not to say it's not accurate, hence the concern):
    A few definitions first:

    Sex - A species expressed reproductive role.
    Gender - A cultural expectation of non-biological behavior in regards to an individual's sex     — Philosophim

    Commoners (those not raised with morals, intellectual rigor, and standards) consider their degeneracy "normal" male behavior. It's not. It's bestial degeneracy. An unfortunate symptom of moral rot ie. normalization of that which should be despised. That means comparing the two classes of males under this dynamic is going to give a false distinction of what "cultural expectation of [...] behavior" actually means.

    I'll give you an example, a real world anecdote from my youth: I once had the displeasure of obtaining schooling in the city. Let's just say they couldn't even legally call it a school; it was an "educational center." They had more security guards than cafeteria staff. 'Nuff said. So. I'm sitting there eating lunch at a table with about half a dozen other boys. Somehow (or perhaps, as expected), the topic of masturbation comes up, to which I of course stay out of. The person closest to me blurts out some vulgar speech about female genitalia, to which I glance over to him with a scornful look of disapproval. Now, instead of apologizing or excusing himself for profane talk at a time and place of eating like a civilized child, he instead responds "Oh, sorry, I didn't know you were a girl!" As if I was somehow the one out of line as far as social etiquette. I didn't realize until several years later that, technically, being in a den of those raised with all the morals and standards of a small rodent, I was in fact the one out of line, or, "acting contrary to how the average male of our age (sadly) does."

    My point is, just because a given society or even world has a "social expectation" of something (in this case, per my story, being vulgar or edgy, or perhaps in another time, accepting and supportive of slavery), doesn't mean it should be treated as if it has the same class of relevance as "sex", something that is rooted in the absolute.

    Anyway, just wanted to express that. Moving on. Regardless, the current impasse seems to be an issue of the fact that different people can have different "grasps" of definitions, some looser and some stricter than others. This is a one-dimensional problem. Not that exciting, per se.

    From my understanding, everyone in this thread who has participated thus far can agree on the following statement: "A transgender 'man' is an individual born as a female who either chooses to identify as the opposite gender or has obtained medical surgery to function as one in some degree." (And the opposite for the opposite sex, respectively).

    So, that's not the issue. The issue is that words evolve over time and some people accept a looser definition of "man" and "woman" to include that of, again this, what I find absurd, idea of "gender" (not that I find the concept of gender absurd, but what it has been turned into to normalize behavior no person of any sex or society should tolerate, let alone normalize).

    This (that is to say the current impasse) seems to be more of a social issue involving words and meaning of words. Not exactly a deep pool of philosophy, IMO. Unless I missed something? :chin:
  • A quandary: How do we know there isn’t anything beyond our reality?
    By definition, the actual world is the one we are in. Is that what you are asking?

    Or are you asking for proof that you are in the actual world?     — Banno

    Right now, as I post this, I am in the actual world of TPF. As are you when you are participating in it. It is very real. It psychically exists. It can be measured by both of us by observing not only our interactions but if we were to physically meet at whatever server or computer infrastructure contains our interactions. Someone who has never heard of TPF would have no knowledge or reason to believe in this "actual" world we are both present in, without visiting it themself, or visiting the underlying location this interaction is made possible by.

    Now, say if me and another member were engaging in a private message. That's, in affect, it's own world. That only the two of us would know about and you would not be privy too. Naturally, you could say it's simply a function of the larger world of TPF and furthermore beyond that, a feature of the larger physical world we could both meet.

    The fact remains, in each smaller world, each participant knows only what they're able to access, leaving that larger than it unknown, as if it didn't exist. Yet it does, but only those able to access it would know that.

    So again, we go back to the original question. How do you know there's not a larger world than what you're able to access?

    Or are you asking for proof that you are in the actual world? What could that look like? — Banno

    I'm sure you and I are in the same world, as we're two entities able to communicate within it. But that doesn't mean, for certain, there's not a larger world in which only one of us may be able to access. That would, in theory, make that hypothetical larger place the "actual" world. No different than how a private message between myself and another is a "world" or "reality" that while myself and the person I'm speaking to could access, you yourself could not access. Just as this forum is a "world" that we can both "access" but someone who does not have access to a computer nor it's physical server location would not consider an "actual" location.
  • A quandary: How do we know there isn’t anything beyond our reality?
    We are in the actual world. — Banno

    What proof do you have of such that a person in a stipulated or even flat-out simulated world wouldn't be able to "show" or otherwise "point to" as well, though? This is the root of the argument that words and misplacement of words ultimately fail to address. :chin:
  • A new home for TPF
    And now, your worst fears have come true and TPF is becoming an SPA. — Jamal

    Well, shoot. I'm just one poster. See what others have to say and go from there I guess. I mean, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, right. Or no, that's not quite right. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." Or something "Star Warsy" like that.

    Arguably, the banking site I use is SPA. You log in and everything most people use routinely seems to be SPA. Sure there's links to terms and other features and whatnot. I consider my activity here as a hobby. Mostly for my benefit. Most people elsewhere disappoint my expectations to understand and engage with ideas I have. But it's not their fault.

    And either way. You're not the sole vanguard of intellectual spaces online, need I remind you. :smile:
  • A new home for TPF
    Do you have JavaScript turned off? Discourse is basically a JavaScript application. — Jamal

    I do not. I can browse most popular websites easily and with full functionality: Facebook, Twitter (X). Amazon, Google, banking websites, etc. Discourse is literally the only site I can recall that gives me the "your browser is out of date" spiel (along with reduced functionality) I have ever seen on this PC I've had for 5 years now.

    In any case I think you might have more trouble than you think, I'm sorry to tell you. It won't just be a matter of visual style, emojis and so on. — Jamal

    If a topic engages me enough, I'll find a way. I again have a phone, and in fact an old tablet I can tether to the Wi-Fi, if need be.

    Even if my access on PC ends up being read-only, it takes 2 seconds to pull up the thread I may desire replying to on mobile. Not an issue for me. Though others (if there are any) may object to such on ideological grounds. Not me, however. :smile:
  • A new home for TPF
    In my opinion that's not enough to demand we abandon Discourse. — Jamal

    Absolutely. No one should have any ability to make you think otherwise.

    Unfortunately this means you'll have trouble using the new forum — Jamal

    Not necessarily. I've come to admire the nice features and design of Plush, but it's the interaction (the words sent and received) that are the reason I frequent this forum. Nothing else. Provided I can read plain text and respond accordingly, there's no real detriment.

    Actually you could apparently use Firefox ESR — Jamal

    I am (now) on the most up to date version of Firefox: 115.30.0esr. That's the acronym of "Extended Support Release" I had posted prior, yes. The result is the same. Which again is no concern of mine. I don't think the presence or absence of the occasional emoticon or having to right-click on an image to view it's full link is anything worth giving a second thought about. If it were a more widespread issue, that might actually result in more than one or two disengagements or disinclination to participate, then yes. But if the statistics you read are accurate, no such concerns are present.

    It's fairly interesting how, despite every single other site I browse being basically normal with full features (banking, eCommerce, social media, etc.) this one platform decides to be like "ok let's turn his experience into something from the 1990s" for seemingly no reason at all. But again, perhaps motives I've yet to understand are justified.
  • The purpose of philosophy
    Nietzsche said the purpose of philosophy was entertainment — ProtagoranSocratist

    What is entertainment? It must differ from liveliness and general social fraternization. Is all art and media simply expression that happens to fall under the auspices of "entertainment?" Could entertainment be... mere distraction? :chin:

    Why or why not?

    Perhaps to some people "truth" is merely entertainment (distraction) from an underlying reality that is devoid of such warm and splendid concepts men create for themselves to cope in an unforgiving world. That's a bit dark, however. So, perhaps, inversely, entertainment is reaching the depths of human need that mere facts and figures, despite providing access to the things we need, they themself could never fulfill?
  • Are humans by nature evil
    C'mon, this same rhetorical question / rationalization has been invoked "In The Name Of God" by countless priests & princes at least since the Bronze Age (ergo theodicy, teleological suspension of the ethical, Deus Volt/Inshallah, ends justify means, just following orders, etc). :mask: — 180 Proof

    So what's your solution? People will follow anything. Someone or something attractive, larger than themself, popular, or of course, yes, religiously elevated. If it's not "religion" and "God" one is following it's "honor", if it's not that it's "scientific advancement", if it's not that it's "free will". We all follow something as if it were God (an ultimate truth or at least path to a better state of being). I don't see how changing the name of the phenomenon would ultimately prevent anything. Do you? :confused:
  • Are humans by nature evil
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." — 180 Proof

    All that means is laypersons need to be controlled by governing authorities and penalized when they act out. Which they are. Those who aren't sneaks, at least.

    What is your solution going forward? People want to believe in something greater than the cold, calculated, and ultimately empty mechanical workings of this world. That the warmth and resplendence we feel from a mother's embrace or a child's hand is more than just an illusion and nothing more than a series of neurons firing and responding to one another So they will. Bet.

    It's almost as if you're saying a person who is a genuine atheist can't ever get obsessed with eugenics and consider certain people "obsolete" or "defective" and attempt to remove them with a genuine sentiment of doing them and the world a favor. Ego or confidence and "self-assurance" is an ingrained biological mechanism for survival. It seems almost natural for someone in a position of power over others to end up with that line of thinking. If there's really nothing that matters, including one's own humanity, what harm is there to engage in genocide, enslavement, and anything else for that matter?
  • A new home for TPF
    But are you managing a limited liability company that affects other people's interests who entrust you with their philosophy-client needs? — boethius

    Psst. It's been stated by the ultimate authority here that this particular line of topic needs to take a hard backseat, if you will. At least for some time. :smile:

    Perhaps discuss in the Shoutbox, featuring my glorious ready-made meal selection, or consider engaging in a private conversation via the in-forum utilities.

    faced with a decision affecting all members of our community (but at least with the support of most, so there's that), is basically of the attitude "Jeff Bazos is full of shit and anyone who proposes an irreversible decision, like the jurisdiction of incorporation and type of incorporation, 'must be made methodically, carefully, slowly, with great deliberation and consultation' is a business moron that we should all ignore — boethius

    The verdict seems to be, not that the good sir is unaware of possibility of risks, but that his "concern" for such vary significantly from your own. Whether this is due to ignorance or a simple differing view of what is important in life, respecting the will of the man in question, the legal aspect of this topic is no longer our concern. Nor is it desired to be spoken of furthermore. If you're a "I told you so" person, well, perhaps you'll get your moment of glory. Or, perhaps everything will be just fine. Either way, sounds like smooth sailing ahead. :cool:
  • A new home for TPF
    ↪Jamal


    I checked on my phone. It has a nice, compact yet usable "floating" pagination feature on the bottom right of the screen. Some might even call that overkill as far as pagination design. :razz:
  • A new home for TPF
    But why don't you go and have a look? — Jamal

    I will, thanks. I'll even update my browser for you.

    (Interesting because I do fairly often, it can't be more than a few months since I got the latest version, and yet, this is what I see: https://i.imgur.com/bvrNCnX.jpeg -- I am on Firefox 115.29, interesting this is the "extended support release" version since I am on Windows 7, which I just noticed Google Chrome literally refuses to offer any form of update for Windows 7, instead requiring a minimum of Windows 10 [I'd have to jump a full 3 numbers ahead] alas this is the view I am stuck with, and perhaps may be the same for others? Not sure)

    It's not a big deal at all. I don't need colors or images. Certainly not to dissuade your welcomed newfound enthusiasm for this forum by petty (albeit genuinely observed) observations that apply to very few, as you say, after all. :smile:
  • A new home for TPF
    A small minority of loudly opinionated frustrated people love to hate it but their reasoning rarely withstands scrutiny. — Jamal

    All scientific innovation (read that again, EVERY single thing around you that isn't a rock attached to a stick) was created by a small minority. This in and of itself doesn't seem to be very useful in any intellectual or logical context of an opinion on the topic, particularly one about scientific or technological development and related feedback.

    People who become frustrated who don't express their frustrations are the leading cause of mental illness, violence, and more. This is scientific fact. They don't "love to hate" they simply have no choice but to express frustration (whether warranted or easily prevented or not) with something that happens to be, at the time, well, frustrating. I feel that is fairly self-evident. You never get angry? We all know you do. Speaking of which, that doorman (or lobby person) at your (possibly former) apartment better be alive. I recall a distinct level of frustration (loudly opinionated—albeit solicited—remarks) in regards to him. Besides. Frustration leads to reconsideration of choice and action, which in of itself (reconsideration of past habits) is the eventual driving factor responsible for every great invention or innovation not discovered haphazardly.

    Just as easily what is responsible for how the world is today: a combination of ingrained need to conform meets hedonic treadmill

    But all that aside. Do you have a link to a (popular/live/"actual") forum that uses Discourse? For some reason the meta links on the site itself seem to be "low-fi" or not the full featured version shown on the main site.

    Is there simply no pagination at all? I'm curious how that would work with a long discussion with say several hundred posts. Presumably you'd click a new topic and end up at the first post. There's surely some "jump to most recent post" or effective pagination link, yes?

    It just seems kind of nice for those with analytical minds who like to study certain posts from varying users the ability to control a certain "sphere" of 10-20 posts at a time (and then navigate to them after viewing the most recent post) and mentally recall "Ok, I was on page X" as opposed to "I last left off reading at 'that guy with the zombie baby as an avatar's post", for example.

    Not a big deal. All benefit comes at a cost. Naturally. I'm sure a few lone people might prefer traditional pagination is all. No fuss, just a view I'm sure others might hold. :smile:
  • A new home for TPF
    @boethius I love you. You're a rare breed. But the man has made his decision. Any benefit (or detriment and consequence) of his decision is now his and his alone to own. Your efforts are, as always, truly appreciated, if not only by myself. :100:

    Let us move onto greener pastures, shall we? :smile:
  • A new home for TPF
    infinite scroll — unimportant

    Ooh, this. So much this. It's especially impactful if you browse on an Internet connection that is slow or throttled. As a web developer myself it's just so frustrating as to wonder what on Earth content is being transferred that would have just been easier to send straightforward to the browser.

    What about IE6 or people who disable Javascript for security reasons, for example? I'd almost think they're purposely making "progress" bad so people get sick of it and return to simpler times. Yes, that's a pleasing thought for anachronistic persons like us to hold, outnumbered and out-voiced as we are. We'll be proven right to the world someday. Someday... :starstruck:

    Edit: I think it has something to do with data archiving, to be honest. Or if you're a bit "creative-minded" some agenda in relation to such. Makes it harder to web scrape. You actually have to know what you're doing and simulate a JSON AJAX request, often using a token that is difficult to obtain by the most popular HTML scraping methods.
  • A new home for TPF
    People with too much time on their hands "looking out for the best interests of others" cause a great deal of problems in the world. — Leontiskos

    Lots of people doing lots of things cause vast amounts of problems, equally. Do you really know for certain what is the cause of every great suffering? No, just what you're told (or the immediate observable factors that are usually but symptoms of true causes). I understand your sentiment those who proclaim to care about others enough to speak out about what's right or "best" are at the end of the day only human beings, and human beings are deceptive and generally predictable as far as being self-serving and generally untrustworthy. That doesn't mean those who keep to themselves and who don't actively try to offer suggestions to improve the world are somehow immune or the opposite. The statement quoted is just not very helpful. It doesn't forward any argument nor does it paint the person you're talking about in a non-favorable light. Some might call this... wait for it... "ill-informed!" :razz:

    Furthermore, what makes you think someone who has access to an Internet-connected device and can type out a reply in 20-30 seconds a few times in a row has "too much time on their hands?" Typing "long" posts is literally like breathing to some intelligent folk. Even if it may take you a while to read it (or like I suspect may be possible, having to re-read it only to get frustrated to no avail of understanding it). Perhaps they've earned their free time.

    Two pages of ill-informed posts on a tangential topic seems plenty sufficient here. — Leontiskos

    There's lots of valuable and generally correct information as far legal philosophy he brought up, whether or not it applies to @Jamal's specific situation or not. This is considered noble effort. Relevant discussion. Do you think he's purposely giving bad information so as to sabotage TPF for some hidden or unknown agenda? If not, why concern yourself with a discussion between two people either one of the involved parties could have (and probably would have preferred) privately messaged?

    It just seems odd to me, as if you're trying to "shut down" a conversation after the two relevant parties basically agreed it to have already been over.

    And it would not be "authoritarian" to encourage people to think a bit before posting. Pointlessly and endlessly fatiguing moderators is not something that should be encouraged. — Leontiskos

    With all due respect, the person you're criticizing seems to be on at least an equal level of communication and understanding of not only logic but real world knowledge as yourself. And that's being quite generous in your favor.

    Giving advice unasked is rude. — Leontiskos

    It is not the lowest form of expression, opinion, or "advice", if the person sees a danger, whether real or not (and it many places, it is), and as an act of compassion and concern expresses why he thinks so to someone who he wishes to avoid said danger. This is basic human empathy. Literally the opposite of rudeness. Concern for fellow man is the cornerstone of all civilized society. Especially in a purposefully pinned thread that the site owner specifically made to "get feedback" from other posters from.

    What country are you from that makes all the above disappear in favor of blind following toward a total stranger who just so happens to be in charge? I seriously need to know.

    Doing it over and over for two pages is highly objectionable. — Leontiskos

    Bruh. It's called a conversation. One makes a concern. The person responds to the concern. And the person responds in turn. It goes back and forth constituting a free exchange of ideas and opinion. If you were desired as a moderator, you'd have been asked already. End of watch bro. Time to live life as a normal civilian/poster. Come on, you can do it. :smile:
  • A new home for TPF
    ↪Leontiskos


    @boethius is just trying to look out for the best interest of @Jamal, and as a result, all of us. Misguided or not. Why so authoritarian all of a sudden? Are you trying to emulate someone? :chin:

    I thought you were a free spirit. Making web extensions and CSS modifications and what not. This is highly uncharacteristic of you. I understand the stakes (and emotions in general) are high, but for goodness sake my friend, let us not forget who we are and what we stand for. :smile:
  • A new home for TPF
    I think to remedy some confusion here, it should be stated that since Jamal is a citizen of the UK, the Online Safety Act (rather it's potential legal penalties) in fact applies to him personally.

    If he were not a citizen of the UK, all the UK authorities could do is block his website from being visited (served ie. "made accessible") by any UK telecommunications provider. He both acknowledges as a UK citizen he could be liable and further acknowledges that regardless of the prior fact, this website is desired to be accessible for those in the UK, of which a substantial amount of posters hail from.

    Otherwise, it would be like if I was from Namibia, Africa and made a website in my country about African food. If some person from the UK who has African heritage wanted to visit my site but could not without requiring a citizen of another country to accept a different country's rules, laws, and systems to simply visit and learn about one's own heritage, that could be woven as a form of illegally depriving a citizen of widely-established rights of cultural heritage.
  • A new home for TPF
    Someone who is really a well resourced predator would have the sophistication and accomplices to carry out such a crime without creating any evidence that is what is happening. They will come to court as simply country folk with good cause and better reputations.

    Such an actor could make a company to make a company to make a company to, all in different countries, just to sue Jamal.     — boethius

    I mean, I'd probably consider agreeing with @Hanover at this point.

    The scenario you're describing is like something out of an international spy movie—almost. :smirk:

    No one person could ever really be as "invulnerable" to the level of hypothetical you describe, I'd wager. (A wealthy and well-oiled quasi-criminal organization, let alone an entire government who makes it their waking purpose to come after one man, it'd be much easier just to buy him out, I'd figure)

    The question I had initially the moment I first read the topic of a new forum was: "Why?" Naturally he answers "why" in the post, one of the primary reasons being legal safety/resilience followed by reliance on a larger, more successful forum software company (Plush doesn't update or really "do" anything these days and hasn't for quite some time). I don't know much about OSA compliance or UK data/Internet laws in general (other than they're pretty strict and to some people unfair/possibly Constitutionally unsound), but, do you think his main reasons in the first post of this thread are not as pertinent or vital to a continued and secure operation of TPF as he attributes them to be? :chin:
  • A new home for TPF
    3. Harassment by the government. Maybe someone posts on the forum something about some minister that minister finds out about (as they obsessively police their online mentions) and then uses their government power to go after your business and you yourself: audits, hate speech, money laundering, whatever. — boethius

    Wouldn't that be like, a huge deal, turning @Jamal into a celebrity overnight and elevating this quiet little corner of the Internet into something anyone here wouldn't ever imagine in their wildest dreams? He would be the ultimate "every man" martyr everybody and their grandma would get behind—point being, it would make the elected official look bad which is not in any elected official's MO. No?

    However, if the plaintiff can force you to spend money then they can just keep doing that until you're broke. — boethius

    Aren't there equal safeguards against this blatant and codified form of abuse of the legal system? Frivolous lawsuits, "lawfare", etc?
  • A new home for TPF
    As for liability, having limited liability is not written in stone.

    If you get sued for hundreds of thousands of pounds the winning party could then argue that it was not lawful to create that kind of liability as a small business to shield yourself from the legal consequences of your reckless speech actions and therefore you should be held personally liable.     — boethius

    I think his point was, based on his understanding, which I assume to be accurate, OSA compliance basically protects a person from all of that, assuming they abide by its guidelines, which require ability to moderate and delete offending content. It's not rational to attribute a site owner as somehow being able to know what unknown random persons they didn't raise who happened to sign up and begin using their publicly-available site say (freedom of religion is freedom of belief, which is tied to ability to speak such belief in the form of speech, otherwise that's a proxy violation of freedom of religion) before they say it, only that if it is deemed offensive or problematic that it may be removed in a timely and permanent manner.

    As it stands now, Jamal is a UK citizen open to anyone who is also a UK citizen to take him to court, if they have the wherewithal, of course. If I, as a nobody, notice offensive or extreme content, I would simply contact the hosting provider. And yes, it does vary on jurisdiction, precisely as you say. Though what is interesting is this is "hosted" software (as will the new forum be, presumably) meaning it depends on not only where those servers are located but how experienced (or inclined toward the particular site owner or free speech in general) the forum company that provides the software and hosting, which per basically all forum software licensing agreements it can terminate the forum "owner's" license or ability to use it at an any time for any reason, mind you. This is the key difference between the current and future dynamic versus if Jamal would have coded a forum software himself from the ground up

    As an aside: What would stop me from filing a request, right now as things are, to either the forum company or if this were actually privately-hosted, the hosting company and essentially accomplishing the same thing (getting the site shut down or forced to remove offending content or otherwise fundamentally changing how it operates?

    That said, you seem to know your stuff. Such wisdom is best heeded, perhaps? :smile:
  • A new home for TPF
    ↪boethius


    Interesting! I also feel it relevant to note TPF does, apparently, have its share of enemies. Not really "enemies" of the forum itself (that would be weird) but people who have axes to grind toward one or more high-ranking staff members and would consider as you say "blowing the whistle" for things that they likely could introduce themself or otherwise would reasonably show up organically either way.

    The staff generally seems left-leaning as it is, people who tend to post with assertions or implications that could be read as "offensive" are generally lopped in under "low quality posts" and don't tend to proliferate here for that reason alongside others. There are intelligent people who have a history of intelligent (acceptable) posts that do express beliefs that others may find not only disagreeable but perhaps offensive and inappropriate, but I can count them on a single hand. Point being, it seems the "UK authorities" and general TPF staff sentiment are more or less on the same page as far as what should be allowed and what shouldn't. But you never know. You never know. Good looking out! :smile:
  • A new home for TPF
    Are you asking about Marco?

    He's an annoying fucking twat, as elucidated with exceptional eloquence here.     — Michael

    So, he's just a guy, one out of 8 billion mind you, nothing special, save for the fact, he that did something some odd years ago nobody else seems to recall, that annoyed you and a few others.

    I wasn't there, I don't know, forgive me if that comes off as callous or discounting of your ability to perceive right and wrong or goodness and virtue in men, I just know nothing of the guy beyond the few sporadic mentions of his and a few other unspeakables here, and your comment, seeing as you're a moderator, piqued my interest, is all.

    I will read the topic you linked to now in full, every comment, specifically those who are staff or who otherwise seemed to have been here a while to see what type of "larger story" or "picture" one can reasonably ascertain.

    I thank you personally for your response and suggest perhaps, due to my nagging curiosity, might have been responsible in leading this topic slightly off topic. This was not intentional. I apologize, and honestly thank you for indulging in my juvenile curiosity, and will direct any other further comment or inquiry of the matter to you in a private message if I feel the need to. (Which I likely won't)

    While, as I'm sure you may be able to gather, your "Sleeping Beauty" thread may be above my current level of understanding (just a wee bit over my head), I look forward to engaging with you in it in the not too distant future. :smile:
  • A new home for TPF
    Some of us had concerns about him, and the future of the forum, so Jamal made this place and we moved over. — Michael

    I recall hearing enough about "the old place" so as to form a relevant and accurate enough (albeit understandably underlying-ly ignorant) narrative, yes,

    So someone uninformed, and forgive my ignorance, a man made less than ideal decisions and temporary (albeit unnecessary) sufferings or hardships were placed on many folk at the time. Yet a new land was formed and thus all passed or alleged and perceived hardships should no longer hold any meaning.

    So, why don't we, that is to say all who were involved see this as a happy ending, per se?

    Forgiveness is not an acceptance of past wrongs but rather an acknowledgement that a better future not only can but has been obtained. There will always be people who gain power who use said temporary transient position unwisely. This is expected, nay, a requirement for the free and at times tumultuous world in which we live.

    I don't see how the memory of this man is not all but water under the proverbial bridge. What have you to fear in the present day and age as far as this person is concerned?
  • A new home for TPF
    If Marco comes back I may have to burn the place to the ground. — Michael

    See this is why places like this, at least in the Lounge, should have a topic or something where past "legends" (or villains to some) can have their stories told unbiased from both sides of the proverbial fire.

    Don't you ever go to a new place and wonder what the stories, tales, and legends of the locals are? What the people who actually made a place what it is today have to say and what they feel and as a result what the true zeitgeist of a place is beyond friendly smiles and pleasantries? The blood, sweat, and tears behind the benches and walls we pass by every day without batting an eye or giving a second thought toward really are and what they represent to those who have seen and lived times we ourselves have not?

    I've been here for 5 years. I've seen the name "Porat" come up a few times, but with such intensity and quiet understanding between those who seem to know, it's... curious. Meanwhile, myself and new persons just view this as almost a mental tic or idiosyncrasy from otherwise respected posters because, it just doesn't make any sense where the rage or discontent comes from. It demands an explanation. And those who are free from fear due to being unbiased or otherwise not "in the wrong" have no reason for all darkness and secrets to become light and openly discussed.
  • The Aestheticization of Evil
    Calling someone naive is calling someone incorrect or ignorant of things you deem yourself as being correct or knowledgeable of or about. — Outlander


    No doubt, but then you added:

    You're calling them wrong, essentially, which is putting into question not just every single act or non-act they've ever engaged in or disengaged in in the entirety of their life, but their entire life worth altogether (ie. "the meaning of life" itself). — Outlander


    Which is completely nonsensical.     — Tzeentch

    Intelligent beings have a habit to be inclined to correct themself when given reason to. Social intelligent beings consider public opinion as a valid reason due to the fact group or family oriented societies are the only ones that have survived to this day and age. Sure, the average person shakes off the average passing comment, but that doesn't change the nature of the opinion the mind has a natural tendency to consider, at least for a moment and perhaps unconsciously, as a possible fact.

    At this point we're just calling science nonsense. Which I can respect, for those who provide sufficient reason, which you have yet to.

    Whether your beliefs and judgements proliferate themself in your mind due to resiliency, or perhaps ignorance, they nonetheless do independent of a larger fact or reason, not including cognitive bias, the brain likes to be right and will see things it enjoys (pattern recognition) to support this homeostasis. However, this is simply not relevant when it comes to actual analysis of the world outside our own head.

    This means you find the normal pattern of possible evidence introduced into a situation or dynamic followed by reasonable analysis and consideration of such as "completely nonsensical" . This is the thought process of dogmatist. Can you not step outside your personal sphere (no matter how many people echo or embrace it, or how valuable it seems, or possibly may actually be to, you) for a moment to see the larger picture that the majority of people hold and follow?
  • Are humans by nature evil
    "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." ~Steven Weinberg — 180 Proof

    Not quite. All it takes is making someone believe something—anything—that results in dehumanization (or dehumanization by proxy ie. elevation of one's self over others, which per human ego and evolutionary confidence is an easy, almost natural ingrained dynamic of the human experience to appeal to). Very easy. Natural, even, per our scientifically recognized "own race" bias. Sure, most beliefs that have profound effect incorporate some idea of a higher power, otherwise it's just one man's opinion in a sea of innumerable others. There are few people on Earth who at the end of the day aren't looking out for number one first and foremost. If it comes down to your kid or a stranger's kid getting fed, let's not kid ourselves as to who you're going to act toward getting fed, irrespective of gods, religion, and who's food it "rightfully" is or should be.
  • A new home for TPF
    The one big improvement I could make to the archive is to include the categories. — Jamal

    I'll give you one hint.

    To retrieve the category automatically from the HTML content of the topic URL, use this Regular Expression (which I'm sure Perl supports):

    Reveal
    <li class="(?:.+?) Active"><strong><a href="(.+?)">(.+?)</a></strong></li>


    Item #1 will of course contain the fully matched string, Item #2 will contain the URL structure (ie. "/categories/1/general-philosophy") and, the magic Item #3 will contain the Category Name (ie. "General Philosophy").

    Now all you have to do is fetch and retrieve 13,000 webpages and sort through them. Not as daunting as it might sound, but you should know that. :smile:

    (Unless of course the "dump" or rawest form of database storage you can access has some field or notation for category, in which case it'd be even easier!)
  • A new home for TPF
    OK, I'll leave them. I've found a decent compromise, which is that they won't be indexed by search engines but anyone can visit those pages, given the URLs (or find them from the archive's search page or whatever). — Jamal

    Or, you can just copy and paste them (along with relevant information such as the particular contest name and type, date of publication, user vote data, and author, if available) to a new, locked read-only sub forum on the upcoming new site? Unless the comments or reviews are of such dire importance. :snicker:

    Or would that result in some sort of unfortunate gray area as far as the legal standards and obligations you're seeking to meet and fulfill are concerned? :chin:

    If so, perhaps there can be a further compromise such as a single pinned thread in some sub forum that links every single short story/poem/literature from every competition that links to its respective content on the archive site? Or would even that be disallowed?
  • A new home for TPF
    Using ChatGPT to do in an hour more than I could have done in a week, I managed to turn a dump of my posts from Jamal's archive into a useable database then a searchable local web page. Still pretty basic but at least I will have access to this stuff locally. Somewhat satisfying. — Banno

    Yeah. Most people can do that too. I have a "dump" of everything I've ever said, thought, or experienced in a usable database I can search and access as well. It's called my brain. :lol:

    I kid, of course. Always happy to see a rare casual "personal" post from one of TPF's hardest hitters who makes this site what it is. Always mystifying and enlightening, yet never concealing or pompous. Well, not terribly often, at least. :razz: Post onward, as if the fate of humanity depends on it. It just very well may. :gasp:
  • A new home for TPF
    As I recall, PF was bought by somebody for more than it was worth, but then almost immediately abandoned by its new owner — noAxioms

    That's... one way to look at events. For those who see beyond the mortal eye, who become aware to what the real battles are, it's clear. Free thinkers tend to be.. problematic, shall we say.
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